A few shades for modern HST liveries - Fag Packet and MML

[GarrettTheThief]

A bit of background.

 

I'm modelling various Midland Mainline services, including Project Rio, and I'm gonna be repainting some stock.  I tried getting the right shades using the model paint database and asking for help, but if anyone could offer alternative solutions, I'd appreciate it.

 

1)

 

I bought (what I thought was) a couple too many Mk3 TGS coaches at low prices.  Before selling them, I realised I needed one in Virgin livery for my Challenger rake, and one in Midland Mainline Teal.  Humbrol do a Virgin Red but I couldn't find the other shade.  Mixing is the only other option and I've been told phthalo turquoise is a good start with green as a mixer (same make of course).

 

2)

 

I'm creating a Project Rio rake in First Great Western Fag Packet livery (I'm happy, because it's beautiful).  The coaches are fairly easy - I have a Hornby TGS and there are always some Merlin coaches floating about on ebay.  I just need to print off transfers for the white space with the Fag Packet pattern and use gold-coloured crafting foil for the strip.

 

The power cars are a different story and Lima models tend to go for a lot, so I'd prefer repainting some executive cars instead (I got them cheap - they were gonna be hosts for Cross Country vinyls, but I bought a pair of Hornby bodyshells instead).  The problem is getting the right shade of green.  My current workaround is using Tamiya Black Green and mixing it with slight tinges of black.

 

3)

 

Hornby are the only ones who did RtR power cars in the Midland Mainline blue livery, but only using the older tooling.  I made a point move away from these models and I've never looked back (even if I wanted to model a fictional region and built a "toy"-like layout, I'd still favour the Lima and new Hornby models AND the scale-length Mk3 coaches).  So guess what?  Yeah, I want to repaint some Lima power cars.  And yeah, I have trouble nailing the blue shade.  I was thinking of mixing Tamiya medium blue with black and black green.

 

If anyone could offer me better/alternatives to get these shades, I'd be hugely grateful.

 

Thanks for reading.

[The Fatadder]

For fgw green Phoenix sell the right colour as great western trains green (they also do the ivory for gwt which is under the stripes

[GarrettTheThief]

Thank you!  That simplifies things considerably, but I can still find uses for the "black green" paint too.

 

Presumably, it's the later 1945 - 1948 green?  Which I think looks like this:

 

[The Fatadder]

It's a very different colour, much lighter than gwr

 

Great western trains being the toc which was absorbed into fgw rather than any connection to the old great western

 

I've done a few resprays of class 47s using the Phoenix paint. Hopefully it's still available!

[GarrettTheThief]

Sorry, I completely misread your post and mixed GWT (i.e. the TOC with the Merlin livery) as GWR.  My mistake.

 

After an extensive search, I found a Great Western Green which is in stock.  Awesome!

 

Thanks again.

[GarrettTheThief]

Okay, now I'm a little stuck on Central Trains Green.  Can anyone please help me with this one?

 

Cheers.

[Rhydgaled]

I know this is an old topic, but I thought it better to keep related queries together rather than starting a new topic to ask a similar question. I have found most of the colours for Great Western Trains livery on the Fox Transfers site (which seems to stock both Pheonix Precision and Railmatch paints):

 

PP241 Great Western Trains Green

PP242 Great Western Trains Silver White

PP243 Great Western Trains Buff

RM2202 Warning Panel Yellow (late version)

 

What I'm planning to do is brush-paint some squares of plasticard and send them off for analyis to have some matching spray cans made up. I may also use the tins to touch up any scratches on my existing Lima GWT HST (the spray cans will be to paint a Hornby Railroad power car to match), can anyone confirm that the Pheonix Precision colours are a good match for Lima's GWT HST?

 

However, I'm not sure whether I should also order the transfers to complete the livery from Fox. Does anyone else do them? I know it's N gauge and mine is OO, but this is the only GWT HST respray I've been able to find photos of (other than one on Hattons where, apparently, the paint had faded) and the green paint doesn't seem to be a good match to the green on the transfers at all. Fatadder's 47830 appears to be a better match than either, but of course the class 47 requires a different set of transfers to the class 43. Anyone have a HST done with Fox transfers and Pheonix paint they can share pictures of?

 

I'm also after the Isambard Kingdom Brunel nameplates for 43003, strictly speaking I don't think they are correct for the GWT era but the plates realy made an impression when I saw them on the real loco. However Fox's picture isn't very clear so I'm not sure if the image of Brunel really comes across properly when scaled down to 4mm scale. I think Shawplan do the same plates as well. Anyone have pictures of the 4mm scale plates (any make) to help me decide whether it is worth fitting fictional (for my era) plates to my 43003?

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

Not helping much, but 43003 gained the "IKB" names in April 2006, firmly into the "Barbie" era! Quite a lot did carry names in the GWT era, but notably there is no supplier I've ever found for the distinctive Swallow style reflective plates which survived on several power cars in the GWT era. I wish Railtec would do them as they do reflective silver swallow logos and the flatter appearance of their 3D names would suit that style well.

 

[Rhydgaled]

22 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

there is no supplier I've ever found for the distinctive Swallow style reflective plates which survived on several power cars in the GWT era.

I think Fox do a few of them if this is what you mean. I've not seen them 'in the flesh' though so can't vouch for the quality/accuracy of the finish.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

3 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

I think Fox do a few of them if this is what you mean. I've not seen them 'in the flesh' though so can't vouch for the quality/accuracy of the finish.

I'd need to see them in the flesh, I had a pair for something at the time from CGW and they were rubbish, although technology may have moved on since then. Back then I thought the best way would be a plain shiney metal strip to go onto the loco and a black lettering on clear background transfer to go on top, in 4mm the lettering shouldn't be visibly raised on that style of 'plate!

[The Fatadder]

5 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

I think Fox do a few of them if this is what you mean. I've not seen them 'in the flesh' though so can't vouch for the quality/accuracy of the finish.

I have at least half  a set of those in my scrap box (presumably I have the other half somewhere as well, though I havent the faintest as to where).  Will see if I can get a decent photo later.

 

I have a plan kicking around for a small layout based around a corner of Laira, for which I will end up finishing off a fair few powercars in Intercity and GWT Merlin liveries.  Should it happen Pride of Laira will end up being one of the first to use up the plates!

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

1 hour ago, The Fatadder said:

I have at least half  a set of those in my scrap box (presumably I have the other half somewhere as well, though I havent the faintest as to where).  Will see if I can get a decent photo later.

 

I have a plan kicking around for a small layout based around a corner of Laira, for which I will end up finishing off a fair few powercars in Intercity and GWT Merlin liveries.  Should it happen Pride of Laira will end up being one of the first to use up the plates!

43179 used to be nicknamed "Hide in Laira" during a long spell of poor availability so you will want to model that one, maybe with the roof panels off or up on the jacks in the shed...

 

When it got the cast plates they changed the background colour every other week, from memory red, dark red, black, gold and green were all used at some stage.

 

 

[The Fatadder]

Just now, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

43179 used to be nicknamed "Hide in Laira" during a long spell of poor availability so you will want to model that one, maybe with the roof panels off or up on the jacks in the shed...

 

When it got the cast plates they changed the background colour every other week, from memory red, dark red, black, gold and green were all used at some stage.

 

 

Thats the sort of thing thats really useful to know.  If I do go ahead with the project 43179 will definitely have to be modelled either with its end panel up being dragged, or up on the jacks inside the building.   Now just need to make a note of this so I dont forget....

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

1 minute ago, The Fatadder said:

Thats the sort of thing thats really useful to know.  If I do go ahead with the project 43179 will definitely have to be modelled either with its end panel up being dragged, or up on the jacks inside the building.   Now just need to make a note of this so I dont forget....

If you are in the ICGW-GWT transition a derelict 43104 with a tree growing up through the cab floor is a "must have"; it got dumped there for several years after GNER decided to make do with 21 power cars and nobody wanted it until the insurance man signed off the overhaul to put it back into traffic as a crash replacement.

[The Fatadder]

2 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

If you are in the ICGW-GWT transition a derelict 43104 with a tree growing up through the cab floor is a "must have"; it got dumped there for several years after GNER decided to make do with 21 power cars and nobody wanted it until the insurance man signed off the overhaul to put it back into traffic as a crash replacement.

I must try and find a photo of that!

 

Pride of Laira plates 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

4 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

I must try and find a photo of that!

 

Pride of Laira plates 

Nameplates look OK to be fair. They are "good" until c1994 I think, they swapped them off for cast ones as it was a "pet" power car.

[Rhydgaled]

4 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Pride of Laira plates

Don't suppose you have some Isambard Kingdom Brunel nameplates for 43003 in there too?

[James Makin]

Coming to this thread a few days late, I can confirm that the Phoenix shades are good - I've recently used them on a respray of the new style Hornby power cars into GWT Merlin with Fox Transfers on top. I'm rather happy with the results, the transfers themselves arrived yellowed (old stock it seems) from Fox's but were left to de-yellow in direct sunlight over a couple of days and were perfect. Phoenix's paint shades come out a treat too. Pics will be on my Workbench thread (link in sig) once all weathered!

 

Nameplates are also in the Intercity stainless steel design from Fox's. Shawplan also do a good range too - didn't realise it wasn't more common knowledge but there is an absolute ton of old Intercity stainless steel plates available as per Rich's pic above and all seem pretty good quality. Fox's etched range is great also for filling the gaps between the Shawplan ones too! 

 

For best research on the naming history of the power cars - I tend to consult the Platform 5 'Locomotives and Coaching Stock' books for the respective years you're interested in as it lists them in there, failing that Flickr has a pretty good selection if you type the power car number and the year of your choice.

 

Look forward to seeing how your project progresses! If you're on Facebook there's a good group to join "GWR and First Great Western Railway modelling" - resprays like these and the newer liveries are posted on a daily basis by fans of the genre, there's been loads done out there beyond the examples there so well worth having a look when you get a chance!

 

I also did the FGW Fag Packet livery a few years back and asked Steve at Railtec to print us some gold decals - these are on his website if it helps with your Project Rio HST too!

 

Hope this helps and best of luck!

James

[The Fatadder]

29 minutes ago, James Makin said:

oming to this thread a few days late, I can confirm that the Phoenix shades are good - I've recently used them on a respray of the new style Hornby power cars into GWT Merlin with Fox Transfers on top. I'm rather happy with the results, the transfers themselves arrived yellowed (old stock it seems) from Fox's but were left to de-yellow in direct sunlight over a couple of days and were perfect. Phoenix's paint shades come out a treat too. Pics will be on my Workbench thread (link in sig) once all weathered!

Looking forward to seeing it, I really regret not buying another pair of powercars to respray back when they were reasonably priced to respray as a GWT pair.  Eventually I may well just end up repainting on of my Intercity ones I think, but for now a detailed Lima pair running on the latest Hornby chassis will have to do.   I still have 3 more Lima powercars which will need repainting along with 3d printed underframe bits, which will be used with a barrier coach and a 47.  Still have nowhere to run them, though do keep thinking about another small project based around a corner of Laira...

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

14 hours ago, James Makin said:

I also did the FGW Fag Packet livery a few years back and asked Steve at Railtec to print us some gold decals - these are on his website if it helps with your Project Rio HST too!

 

Hope this helps and best of luck!

James

What item number for the gold First decals please? I'd like to see a set to find what size they are and if they might "do" for the later blue/pink "barbie" livery which is universally ignored. I have no means of producing gold decals on the print at home method, they just don't come out the right colour without a glossy/metalic look.

 

[Rhydgaled]

10 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

What item number for the gold First decals please? I'd like to see a set to find what size they are and if they might "do" for the later blue/pink "barbie" livery which is universally ignored. I have no means of producing gold decals on the print at home method, they just don't come out the right colour without a glossy/metalic look.

 

Railtec have 'by livery' pages, for example here is the page for First Great Western (though don't ask me why the LSL Midland Pullman is on that list) which is mostly dynamic lines stuff but also includes the Fag Packet transfers including some gold bands here. Unfortunately for you this apparently "contains the gold band / fading white lines" while the Barbie livery has no fading white lines and instead has a pink line running along the top of the gold band. You would also need gold 'Great Western' lettering on a blue background interupting the gold/pink band. On the plus side, if you can print transfers at home I'm not sure the 'gold' band looks particularly metalic in the pictures I just found by searching Flickr eg. this one.

[Rhydgaled]

On 22/02/2021 at 09:39, James Makin said:

Coming to this thread a few days late, I can confirm that the Phoenix shades are good - I've recently used them on a respray of the new style Hornby power cars into GWT Merlin with Fox Transfers on top. I'm rather happy with the results, the transfers themselves arrived yellowed (old stock it seems) from Fox's but were left to de-yellow in direct sunlight over a couple of days and were perfect. Phoenix's paint shades come out a treat too. Pics will be on my Workbench thread (link in sig) once all weathered!

If you haven't already weathered them, could you make sure to grab some pics before you do please? Mine will not be weathered, although if my GWT respray goes well I am toying with the idea of doing a fictional version of Swallow livery with a 91-style white front end which if I go through with it will need some light weathering on the white bits.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

54 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

 

Railtec have 'by livery' pages, for example here is the page for First Great Western (though don't ask me why the LSL Midland Pullman is on that list) which is mostly dynamic lines stuff but also includes the Fag Packet transfers including some gold bands here. Unfortunately for you this apparently "contains the gold band / fading white lines" while the Barbie livery has no fading white lines and instead has a pink line running along the top of the gold band. You would also need gold 'Great Western' lettering on a blue background interupting the gold/pink band. On the plus side, if you can print transfers at home I'm not sure the 'gold' band looks particularly metalic in the pictures I just found by searching Flickr eg. this one.

Metalic was maybe the wrong word, they feel like they have a glossyness to them that I wasn't able to replicate on the printer at home.

 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/43143_Knighton_2007.htm

 

Kind of shows what I want to achieve. I was going to (bear with me!) spray the pink onto a waterslide transfer sheet and print the outline of it onto the dried pink section of the sheet and cut that out and apply it to the loco, I don't think I'd be able to accurately mask up the curves on the bodyside nor do I think the resolution of the pink would be good enough on a home printed transfer. Then having some "pink transfer" left over I'd be able to slice up the narrow pink bands and apply those as transfers, and I could distress or otherwise manipulate the band that goes around the front as they were always quite washed out, even on otherwise tidy power cars as shown on the picture link.

 

I just wish someone would take all that hassle away from me!!

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

54 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

If you haven't already weathered them, could you make sure to grab some pics before you do please? Mine will not be weathered, although if my GWT respray goes well I am toying with the idea of doing a fictional version of Swallow livery with a 91-style white front end which if I go through with it will need some light weathering on the white bits.

43038 had a white cab roof which made it look a bit more Class 91-esque, there are photos out there showing it newly done, or you may prefer the "in service" look....

 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/43038_Finedon_1992.htm

[James Makin]

I’ll be sure to post up some pics of the Merlin power car in unweathered form once I do the project update on the Workbench thread - to be honest the weathering they are getting is just a pin wash over the sides to highlight the grime in the recesses etc, there’ll be no coating of Bachmann style ‘RHTT’ brown spray to hide that gorgeous ivory! 

I’ve got a few snaps of my first Fag Packet set from a little while back, just a repaint over the new style Hornby power cars - 

 

 

 

The stainless plates are on there too, those for BBC Wales Today and County of Somerset are from Fox and reasonably decent quality. Shawplan’s ones are a touch finer still but the range of identities is less.

 

The Railtec decals themselves are gold metallic but not overly shiny, and I’ve layered mine over with matt varnish in any event so it’s not bling bling..! The stripes on the power cars are not too far off the Lima FGW coaches but for my next few Fag Packet/Merlin transition sets they’ll be freshly painted throughout (I worked I need at least 7 sets to run a half-convincing Didcot exhibition service, eek!) 
 

For the later Barbie livery the First decals are a larger size but I would hope Steve @ Railtec may be up for tinkering with the decals one day! A few others online have already modelled Barbie (all versions), there’s a guy on eBay flogging them occasionally too so someones had a go at the transfers themselves. At the end of the day you could just print the First transfers without the ‘gold’ element and they’d look decent enough in any event!

 

Hope this helps,

James