On30 - can it really be that bad?

[chaz]

All the above is very interesting and proves that 0n30 is a viable modelling scale and not a toy. As you are just starting out all I would counsel really is to think about what you want to achieve and agree with yourself some standards and stick to them.

 

As a trader selling both 0n3 and 0n30 stuff (but modelling 0n3 myself) there are some regular pit falls to watch out for. These I see repeatedly from customers who didn’t think it through before they started.

 

As other have already said 0n3 is a scale model of 3ft gauge prototypes, not just Colorado, as I have a fleet of west coast geared loco’s, and East Broad Top loco and a couple of Uintah Mallets. 0n3 has its own set of standards obviously applying to track gauge but also to couplers and coupler height. Physical size is less clear as there were some diminutive 3ft gauge loco’s just as there were some huge 2’6” gauge ones.

 

0n30 is, mostly, a model of 2’6” gauge railways but with some commercial diversions like including the 2ft gauge Forney’s and the 3ft gauge 4-6-0 but notably it has adopted the HO coupler and its height as its commercial standard.

 

Where it all goes a bit woolly is when you start mixing the two. San Juan do ready to run models of many of the Colorado narrow gauge wagons and have in recent years compromised by including 0n30 wheelset but the couplers are still 0n3 and the physical size is dead scale so, for example, a San Juan flat car will dwarf one from the Bachmann catalogue. So, decide which coupler standard you intend to use and stick with it. Changing the 0n3 ones to 0n30 isn’t straightforward. Going the other way, fitting 0n3 ones to Bachmann 0n30 cars, is easy on some vehicles (the 2 bay hopper) and nigh on impossible on others.

 

Also before you start decide on the track standards you want to adopt. I am thinking mostly of curve and turnout radius. There was something of an outcry against Bachmann when, having introduced the range with the mogul (happy on 15” curves), the Porters (happy on 6” corners), they released the Forney which unless you are very careful about what its pulling needs 24”. 

 

Just like on the real thing little engines go round tighter curves than big ones.

 

To some extent the second hand market for MMI loco’s has been driven by a general misunderstanding of this fundamental principle.  When MMI released their models of the K27, K28, K36 and K37 with both 0n3 and 0n30 versions lots of 0n30 modellers bought them and slowly they trickle back on to the market as people realise they are big 3ft gauge engines, take up a lot of space and don’t go around corners. MMI did what they could with flangeless centre drivers on the 0n30 versions but it still won’t handle Peco medium radius turnouts reliably and laughs at the NG Wye

 

A K36 whilst only 3 foot gauge is physically about the same size as a standard gauge 9F. Doesn’t matter what the track gauge is it’s going to take up a lot of space!

It’s not just in the models though that the weight and size is underestimated. Seems there is a prototype for everything.

K463.jpg

 

 

Most of all decide what you want to achieve and how it will look and have fun. If your aim is a realistic model, just like in every other scale, choose elements that look right together

 

Thanks Paul. Some useful advice in your posting. I certainly don't intend to buy any of the MMI models - fine though they are they would not "fit" what I plan to do. I do think it helps if you are consistent and for this reason my line will not have any geared locos (Shays etc) but will have a mogul or two, 2-8-0, 4-6-0 and a couple of Fourneys converted to 2-4-0 tender engines - one of them coupled to the excellent tender kit you supplied. I will standardise on the coupling height that Bachmann have set, although I will replace their very fragile plastic couplers with Kadees.

Regardless of what the stock will run round I am setting a min' radius of 24" - anything tighter just looks too tight even for NG.

 

Chaz

[Stevelewis]

I can fully  support   Paul's 'warning'  re  the  size  of  the  MMI  K27s  etc,  I have  never personally  bought  one  as  a lesson  was  learned   when  i  purchased   Bachman Spectrum's  Large  Scale Fn30  K27  for  my   g scale  line in the  garden, that loco is  massive   both length & width, weighs a  ton and   has  rather  dramatic ovehangs  on comparatively  large  radius  curves, and is the  only  large  scale loco which is fitted  with  a  cooling  fan  to keep its  massive  motor  cool!

 

My expreince  with the large  scale K27,  was  warning  enough  to keep clear  of the  MMI on3/30 ones!!

[chaz]

Have a look at 'Eagle Rock' in the current Continental Modeller.  This was made with hand built wood sleepered spiked track, scratchbuilt buildings, weathered and detailed Bachmann stock and scratch built stock using Bachmann chassis, trucks etc.  A cracking example of compromise in a situation where different track gauges of prototype exist.  Scenically I don't think it can have many rivals - but that has no impact on the track gauge of course.

 

Now, we don't want another OO/EM/P4 style gauge war do we

 

Definitely not!   I want to build a convincing railway, with dirty steam engines running through a wooded valley, the whole looking a bit run-down and make do - I don't really care about the track gauge.

[chaz]

Go On30, it really can be so much fun and made to look stunning. For me this is the ultimate: http://coastline.no13.se/#home Troels has not updated that in a while but it is updated on railroad line forum, which has a thriving On30 forum. --> http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36954 over 6 volumes of his work.

 

Go for it I did. My British stuff is P4 yet On3 has never interested me in the slightest. I have a small roundy sawmill layout in On30 with a handful of scratchbuilt wagons and a couple of DCC porters. Although my next layout will be Maine 2 footers, but still on On30 as I'm definitely not up for On2. 

 

Bachmanns range is basically a hotchpotch of stock thats a) still available to measure and B) fairly prototypically popular, plus a few other things.

 

You'll love it once you start! 

 

 

edit: The smiley should actually be 'b )' 

 

 

You'll love it once you start!   Oh, I do already. Just got the Bachmann 4-6-0 out of its box for an oggle - splendid model and crying out for re-lettering and some weathering....

[chaz]

I can fully  support   Paul's 'warning'  re  the  size  of  the  MMI  K27s  etc,  I have  never personally  bought  one  as  a lesson  was  learned   when  i  purchased   Bachman Spectrum's  Large  Scale Fn30  K27  for  my   g scale  line in the  garden, that loco is  massive   both length & width, weighs a  ton and   has  rather  dramatic ovehangs  on comparatively  large  radius  curves, and is the  only  large  scale loco which is fitted  with  a  cooling  fan  to keep its  massive  motor  cool!

 

My expreince  with the large  scale K27,  was  warning  enough  to keep clear  of the  MMI on3/30 ones!!

 

This may be next best thing to sacrilege but I don't actually like the DRG K series locos, too big and modern for my taste.

[chaz]

I have  been  a  user  of  Bachmann 0n30  since  its  introduction  about  15 Years

 ago

 

As  I still build  0n30 layouts  (currently  building  one  in  a  shed)  I think it  goes  without  saying  that  I  quite  like  the  products, Ok  some  of them  may  be  a little dubious  as  far  as  scale  and original prototype is  concerned,  but  for  an  all over   effect I think they  are  fine  products.

 

The  running  qualities  are  excellent,  the  locos  are  heavy  as  a lot  of  Metal is  used  in  their  construction,  I must  admit   I have  a (pronounced) leaning  towards  the  Mallets, both  versions of  which perform  impeccably  and  sound  quite  superb.

 

One of  the issues with 0n30 is  that  availabilty, can be  an issue, as  many of the items  are limited  run production.

 

I purchase  most  of  my items  from www.tower-models.com  Dave  & Roger,  Kernow  has a few  items usually  but at  Higher  prices  and  I occasionally  use www.micromark.com in New York  as  they sometimes  list  items  which  have  sold  out in the  UK  ( delivery  takes  around 10 days and  VAT +£8.00 is  charged by the border control agency (or whatever it is  called).

 

A couple  of   reading  suggestions ------ The  0n30  Annual  around  £14.00

 

Up Clear Creek on the  Narrow  Gauge  &  More  Up Clear  Creek on the  Narrow  gauge,

  These 2 volumes  are  reprints from Narrow Gauge & Short Line  Gazette over  several  years by  Harry W Brunk,  not  so much a  How to Build a model railway  theme  but about  the  Colarado & Southern NG Railway, each volume  is  around  300 pages,  and  they  are  quite  expensive  books,  I bought  mine  from  Camden  Miniature  Steam  Services in Frome  Somerset.

 

Thanks for the advice and the links. I do, in fact, have a complete set of the On30 annuals and I am a subscriber to the Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette, never having been to the US (I don't fly) I need them to get my regular fix....

[chaz]

Thanks to all of you who have been overwhelmingly positive about On30 and the Bachmann range. I do understand why someone would want to model in On3 and it's much more accurate, no-compromise approach but that's not what I want to do and - as I have said before - the hobby ought to be big enough to allow both approaches. I will be striving to avoid the "twee" and to get a convincing look to my railroad.

But I will just say again - I don't care in the slightest about the anomalous track gauge - as it happens the railroad I'm making up errrr modelling was 2' 6" 

[JWB]

It seems to me that there are several issues going on here. One, the OP says he wants to get something running without too much trouble or expense. Another, there's some concern that the stock isn't accurate. A third, that On30 layouts somehow "hit the spot".

 

People have their own objectives in the hobby, and if minimal trouble and expense are part of them, OK, although a certain number of minimal trouble and expense people seem to think that the folks who do put more effort, time, and money into the hobby should be impressed. I'm not sure why that is -- I tend to respect people who have high expectations and have less respect for people whose expectations are lower. I am less enthusiastic about forums, for instance, where the low-expectation people dominate. But people should suit themselves. My own opinion of On30 is related to the number of people who seem to use it as a vehicle for trying to get respect for their own low expectations.

 

The stock is actually pretty accurate for what it is. The original Bachmann On30 of 10-15 years ago was patterned after Pennsylvania narrow gauges (Pennsylvania actually had the second-highest narrow gauge mileage after Colorado). Other Bachmann stock is pretty accurate for Maine 2-foot prototype. The Porters and some of the smaller stock are extremely accurate -- and 30-inch gauge was very common for brickyard and quarry lines, where such equipment was used. The problem there is that the operations were very simple, sometimes just a single track with no switches, loco pushes one or two cars to a loader at a clay pit and pulls them back to the kiln, that's it, day in, day out. It's in fact very accurate, but why do this on a model, unless it's for the Podunk Historical Society?

 

A lot of the most popular On30 layouts have sort of a Disneyland feel. People will spend thousands to travel to national narrow gauge conventions to go see Disneyland style layouts. Not my cup of tea. I'm not sure if this is what the OP means by hitting the spot. One issue with narrow gauge overall is the problem that actual operations can be monotonous -- one reason the D&RGW narrow gauge is popular is that it had enough variety of equipment and operation to keep interest in a layout up. Once you get smaller than the East Broad Top, things drop off quickly -- a weekly mixed train gets to be same old-same old in a hurry. So if you get off the Disneyland jag, you hit another set of constraints.

 

Overall, I guess my feeling is that yes, On30 is really that bad, but it's just an opinion.

[PaulRhB]

Hmmm one thing not mentioned so far is that if you are modelling a freelance line then why would you worry about the gauge? Surely they just ordered it to the 2 1/2ft gauge from the builder using standard parts

 

I started off with Bachmann and then fell for the K27's which I should have gone for in On3 but the thought of regauging two BLI C16's, three C&S 2.6.0's, three porters and a couple of geared locos meant reality set in that life was too short. I've gone with the micro engineering track and from the side how you usually see it it looks fine and I'm not selling the On30 ones in the hope of finding two On3 ones even now I've sold off most of the Bachmann stuff, purely thinning the collection rather than a problem with it.

[PaulRhB]

People have their own objectives in the hobby, and if minimal trouble and expense are part of them, OK, although a certain number of minimal trouble and expense people seem to think that the folks who do put more effort, time, and money into the hobby should be impressed. I'm not sure why that is -- I tend to respect people who have high expectations and have less respect for people whose expectations are lower. I am less enthusiastic about forums, for instance, where the low-expectation people dominate. But people should suit themselves. My own opinion of On30 is related to the number of people who seem to use it as a vehicle for trying to get respect for their own low expectations.

 

Wow that's an inflammatory sweeping statement lumping On30 universally in with low expectations! Especially considering what several others have said in this thread that they use it as a quick fix for another interest away from the intensity of their proto scale modelling.

Without a quick rtr option such as the Bachmann On30 it's much harder to create an interest in US narrow gauge over here. Yes people of all abilities build layouts to a variety of standards and space constraints which On30 suits but it will also give many the launch pad to finescale narrow gauge modelling. If you have lots of money and space the On3 is undoubtedly better for prototypical modelling the 3ft lines but some of us have to live with constraints of time, space and money that make On30 a good compromise.

If you don't embrace all levels and strive to help them better it then you are ignoring a large number of people who help finance the companies producing parts for your elite end.

[chaz]

It seems to me that there are several issues going on here. One, the OP says he wants to get something running without too much trouble or expense. Another, there's some concern that the stock isn't accurate. A third, that On30 layouts somehow "hit the spot".

 

People have their own objectives in the hobby, and if minimal trouble and expense are part of them, OK, although a certain number of minimal trouble and expense people seem to think that the folks who do put more effort, time, and money into the hobby should be impressed. I'm not sure why that is -- I tend to respect people who have high expectations and have less respect for people whose expectations are lower. I am less enthusiastic about forums, for instance, where the low-expectation people dominate. But people should suit themselves. My own opinion of On30 is related to the number of people who seem to use it as a vehicle for trying to get respect for their own low expectations.

 

The stock is actually pretty accurate for what it is. The original Bachmann On30 of 10-15 years ago was patterned after Pennsylvania narrow gauges (Pennsylvania actually had the second-highest narrow gauge mileage after Colorado). Other Bachmann stock is pretty accurate for Maine 2-foot prototype. The Porters and some of the smaller stock are extremely accurate -- and 30-inch gauge was very common for brickyard and quarry lines, where such equipment was used. The problem there is that the operations were very simple, sometimes just a single track with no switches, loco pushes one or two cars to a loader at a clay pit and pulls them back to the kiln, that's it, day in, day out. It's in fact very accurate, but why do this on a model, unless it's for the Podunk Historical Society?

 

A lot of the most popular On30 layouts have sort of a Disneyland feel. People will spend thousands to travel to national narrow gauge conventions to go see Disneyland style layouts. Not my cup of tea. I'm not sure if this is what the OP means by hitting the spot. One issue with narrow gauge overall is the problem that actual operations can be monotonous -- one reason the D&RGW narrow gauge is popular is that it had enough variety of equipment and operation to keep interest in a layout up. Once you get smaller than the East Broad Top, things drop off quickly -- a weekly mixed train gets to be same old-same old in a hurry. So if you get off the Disneyland jag, you hit another set of constraints.

 

Overall, I guess my feeling is that yes, On30 is really that bad, but it's just an opinion.

 

"My own opinion of On30 is related to the number of people who seem to use it as a vehicle for trying to get respect for their own low expectations."  

 

I don't recognise myself at all in this description. I don't try to get respect through my models - they are not some kind of badge. Frankly whether my expectations are low or not is something i will leave others to judge - but I reserve the right to ignore their views.

Disneyland? Well there is a bit of that around but if my layout ends up looking like that I will be looking for a skip to put it in. When I used the phrase "hit the spot" I was referring to layouts such as Troels Kirk's Coastline RR. If you think that is Disneyland then we will have to agree to differ. in my opinion it is terrific modelling and the track gauge and the accuracy of the equipment seems irrelevant.

[chaz]

Wow that's an inflammatory sweeping statement lumping On30 universally in with low expectations! Especially considering what several others have said in this thread that they use it as a quick fix for another interest away from the intensity of their proto scale modelling.

Without a quick rtr option such as the Bachmann On30 it's much harder to create an interest in US narrow gauge over here. Yes people of all abilities build layouts to a variety of standards and space constraints which On30 suits but it will also give many the launch pad to finescale narrow gauge modelling. If you have lots of money and space the On3 is undoubtedly better for prototypical modelling the 3ft lines but some of us have to live with constraints of time, space and money that make On30 a good compromise.

If you don't embrace all levels and strive to help them better it then you are ignoring a large number of people who help finance the companies producing parts for your elite end.

 

Thank you Paul. That seems to hit the nail on the head for me. I quite agree with your sentiments. I have no intention of criticising those who model in On3 implicitly or explicitly - that would be silly. In the same way I would not criticise those who model British O in Scale 7. Good luck to them and I will admire their results, but I have no intention of moving that way myself. No, you are right to say "some of us have to live with constraints of time, space and money that make On30 a good compromise."

 

Strikes me that no more needs to be said.

 

Chaz

[JWB]

Naturally, I wasn't referring to present company in discussing low expectations. On the other hand, the subject line does suggest that On30 may in fact have a bad reputation -- is there anything wrong with explaining why that might be the case?

[rodshaw]

I've seen a few On30 layouts in the monthlies and I must say they've looked pretty good to me. I speak from ignorance, not knowing much about narrow gauge, but I'd never have looked on them as something to be sniffed at.

 

I saw Norman Raven's Great Western at the York show in April and it's impressive. I'll be seeing Eagle Rock in Wakefield on Sunday and I expect to be equally impressed.

[corax67]

If someone fancies getting into 7mm Narrow Gauge in an affordable way then RTR On30 is definitely an option to consider seriously.

 

As with other contributors I have a large amount of Bachmann On30 stock supplemented with Backwoods Miniatures items and scratch built stock too amassed over some 10-12 years. I can echo the comments regarding reliability and performance too.

 

On my shunting puzzle I run various rakes of OO wagons for variety over the course of a show but wouldn't be without my Bachmann 0-4-2 sound fitted porter with a rake of v-side dump cars or wood siders as they draw a hugely favourable reception without fail.

 

I think the OP may have spoken to a narrow gauge purist who possibly felt and reacted toward On30 RTR as a dedicated EM/P4 purist might towards a Hornby goods starter set or the Railroader offerings. I have never felt the need for ultra-realism in my railway modelling but to each their own.

 

It's horses for courses and if you like the look of the stuff & can afford it then go for it - have a look at the Pacific Airliner site for On30 inspiration too as well as the On30 Conspiracy Yahoo group plus On30center.com (especially the Howard, Fine & Howard Mining Company layout) and I guarantee there is plenty of operational potential with a regular smile included.

[Jeff Smith]

Chaz,

 

Your opening post got me interested because your thoughts exactly parallel my own.  I have been a P4 modeller for 30 years - quite happy to do a lot of research and spend months building a loco or coach kit.  I also have a P4 layout which is currently not set up due to a house move.  I got interested in 0-16.5 thinking of the Glyn Valley Tramway but then wandered into 0n30 and the Bachmann products.  What really set me thinking was this web site http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/on30/beginner/ .  I slipped quite easily into a RTR mindset (frighteningly easily actually) and built the two back to back 8' x 2' solid top baseboards with the intention of through running US 0n30 on one side and 0-16.5 GVT on the other.  ME code 83 for 0n30 and Peco 0-16.5 code 100 for the Welsh side (or maybe L & B.....).

 

There are plenty of links on the above site with a lot of 'lessons learned'.  One interesting page deals with 5.5mm scale also known as 55n3 http://www.55n3.org/ which uses 16.5mm track to represent 3' gauge.  The author claims that a number of the Bachmann products are actually 5.5mm/ft.  Enough has been written already on this thread regarding correct gauges etc etc so I'm not going there, particularly as I just won a bid on ebay (http://stores.ebay.com/The-Favorite-Spot/ON30-SCALE-TRAINS-/_i.html?rt=nc&LH_BIN=1&_fsub=5&_sid=13534603&_trksid=p4634.c0.m309) for a 2-4-4 Forney in Sandy River and Rangely Lake livery which was a 2' gauge line....not bad for $90 including shipping within the US.

 

Anyway - here's the progress so far.  Micro Engineering track laid on thick cork to accommodate the Bachmann uncoupling magnets.  Wiring in progress.  Points operated with rods and Blue Point manual switch machines which include the frog polarity switch.  It will be wired for DCC with everything live.  The siding on the front right is isolated and will be the reprogramming track.  Scenery is TBD but will most likely be wooded not desert.  The presumption is a terminal station on a common carrier with logging extension continuing through the tunnel - unlikely but it's my train set...... Buildings will be station, freight, water tower and maybe a general store, all laser cut craftsman style.  Period = 1920's.

[PaulRhB]

Naturally, I wasn't referring to present company in discussing low expectations. On the other hand, the subject line does suggest that On30 may in fact have a bad reputation -- is there anything wrong with explaining why that might be the case?

Nope just the way you said it in the first one which came across a bit elitist, this quote puts your point of view far better. I tempered my first reaction as it seemed a bit strong and thanks for clarifying

Drifting a bit I have far more interests than are really healthy in railway modelling and choose not to focus to the nth degree on just one but to enjoy several at a slightly lower detail level. The other major factor is my interest is really in trying to capture a slice of the whole and operation which means ultimate detail isn't necessary for me to enjoy it. I respect those like Gordon Gravett who will spend 18 years getting it perfect but my attention span lasts a couple of years before I want to try something different.

009 and to be honest most NG scales continue to have a bad reputation as serious modelling scales due to whimsical and rabbit warrens being a stereotype. NG modelling has the same breadth as all other SG modelling but the fact that beginners have to do so much more kit building than the out of the box rtr OO modellers means the perception of poor quality, rather than a steep learning curve, seems to stick.

If you choose your freelance line carefully you can make a very convincing might have been with On30

[JWB]

I'm not suggesting everyone's work should be top notch at all times -- mine isn't, certainly. On the other hand, I'm not looking for a free pass, either. And on yet another hand, I hear a lot in this thread that such-and-such wants a break from P4 or whatever, so he's going to -- well, I'm not sure how to characterize it -- have it easy, or go slumming, or dress down, or something, and so everyone should -- what? -- suspend normal expectations? I go back to the US rule of thumb that handsome is as handsome does. Someone who does something well in one area is likely to be consistent in other areas. My earlier post here suggested that it was possible to use On30 equipment to model something off the beaten track in US narrow gauge quite well. There are prototypes like the Waynesburg & Washington or Ohio River & Western, which Bachmann initially followed in its first equipment, that could certainly be modeled to a very high standard. For that matter, look at Dave Frary's On30 model of the Nantucket Railroad http://www.mrscenery.com/pdf/Nantucket.pdf -- a very good example of a top-notch modeler doing On30 to the same consistently high standard as his other work.

 

However, I think I can assert that the Nantucket display is an exception to the run of the mill. At no point did Frary try to apologize for using On30 to represent On3, and he didn't start any threads saying gee, why do some people think On30 is tacky? A good modeler is going to go ahead and, as Bob Brown puts it, "get on with it". What I'm wondering if I'm seeing here is something else, almost an attempt to apologize for something, and attempt to get everyone to reassure someone for something.

 

If you think you can do it, go ahead. Handsome is as handsome does. Nobody needs to give you permission.

[298]

I'm quite partial to a bit of Narrow Gauge, but to be honest they were in danger of being the new GWR Branchline/Urban Switching/D&E Diesel Depot as there seemed to be a factory somewhere turning out clones of previous layouts and stocked from the Bachmann catalogue. I'm not sure what long term existing slim gauge modellers made of the new intrusion*, but based on the UK exhibition punters habit of looking at the sum of the parts instead of the whole scene, I recall witnessing a number of people walk past many narrow gauge layouts (even ones which weren't even On30) saying "Look, there's that Bachmann Porter again.....".

 

* Ask me about 5 years after Interurban freight modelling becomes mainstream.

[Oldddudders]

It ought to be mentioned that there is a healthy "after market" in kits to liven up the same-old same-old Bachmann products. Deerfield River Laser make coach kits of Maine prototypes, Bill Banta offers kits to convert locos and stock, and Blue Mountain do a range of upgrades, too. Backwoods Miniatures have already had a mention. No doubt there are many others. My point is that no-one needs to be tied to the original plastic models if they want to stretch their modelling scope a little, but don't have the time/stomach/skills for On3.

[chaz]

Naturally, I wasn't referring to present company in discussing low expectations. On the other hand, the subject line does suggest that On30 may in fact have a bad reputation -- is there anything wrong with explaining why that might be the case?

 

No of course not. The whole point of a forum is to allow the exchange of views. If you re-read my original post you will see that it was inspired by a conversation during which I was told in no uncertain terms that the Bachmann range are toys and do not represent any real railroad equipment. I was hoping to stir up a range of views - i certainly got that.

[HSB]

0n30 is fine for modelling 2' 6" railways but using it for modelling 3' lines such as the Denver & Rio Grande or the Rio Grande Southern looks as wrong as using 0-16.5 for Irish 3'. There are plenty of interesting 2' 6" lines in Latin America as well as a few logging lines in the US, mainly California. The only 2' 6" common carrier in the USA was the Yosemite Short Line which was abandoned before completion. 

[chaz]

I'm quite partial to a bit of Narrow Gauge, but to be honest they were in danger of being the new GWR Branchline/Urban Switching/D&E Diesel Depot as there seemed to be a factory somewhere turning out clones of previous layouts and stocked from the Bachmann catalogue. I'm not sure what long term existing slim gauge modellers made of the new intrusion*, but based on the UK exhibition punters habit of looking at the sum of the parts instead of the whole scene, I recall witnessing a number of people walk past many narrow gauge layouts (even ones which weren't even On30) saying "Look, there's that Bachmann Porter again.....".

 

* Ask me about 5 years after Interurban freight modelling becomes mainstream.

 

That's certainly a trap to be avoided. The GWR BLT is something of a cliche but it could still be done so well that it throws off that label. Isn't it likely that it's a trap waiting for any RTR user? I don't like clone layouts and will be doing my best not to add to their number.

 

I wasn't going to do this but....

Have a look at the latter pages of this topic...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58132-dock-green/

That's my 7mm exhibition layout.

 

I will be looking to create something of similar quality in On30, so think of Bachmann stock but repainted, relettered, weathered and running through a wooded landscape, with timber buildings a bit down at heel. It will run round my roof space 14' x 10' so not a huge space, and probably not sufficient for On3!

 

Chaz

[t-b-g]

There is nothing at all wrong with any modeller choosing to build any layout they wish, in any scale/gauge combination they choose to adopt. The concept of freelance modelling has always prospered with NG modelling and there have been many superb fictional lines, so why not a USA 2' 6" gauge one, perhaps using some stock re-gauged from other lines. 

 

Perhaps the biggest danger with the Bachmann range is that there do seem to be a number of identikit US Narrow Gauge layouts appearing at shows. They are all built with the line along a step on a steep slope, they all have a river at the bottom with a logging facility and they all have the timber trestle bridge and lots of tall trees. Very often, the obligatory novelty bear is seen lurking in the woods and there is the old flatbed truck waiting at the level crossing and the layout is complete with the sound effects of "clang-clang" and "whoo-whoo".

 

I have seen the odd layout here and there where the sheer quality of the scenic work lifts it to another level but I have seen many more that are very similar in scope and design.

 

I genuinely think that the RTR range could easily provide an excellent basis for a layout but that such a layout needs a deal of careful thought to make it original and interesting, otherwise it will be easily forgettable in amongst all the others.

 

Of course this is all totally irrelevant for a home based layout, where all that matters is the satisfaction the layout gives to the builder!

 

Tony

[chaz]

I'm not suggesting everyone's work should be top notch at all times -- mine isn't, certainly. On the other hand, I'm not looking for a free pass, either. And on yet another hand, I hear a lot in this thread that such-and-such wants a break from P4 or whatever, so he's going to -- well, I'm not sure how to characterize it -- have it easy, or go slumming, or dress down, or something, and so everyone should -- what? -- suspend normal expectations? I go back to the US rule of thumb that handsome is as handsome does. Someone who does something well in one area is likely to be consistent in other areas. My earlier post here suggested that it was possible to use On30 equipment to model something off the beaten track in US narrow gauge quite well. There are prototypes like the Waynesburg & Washington or Ohio River & Western, which Bachmann initially followed in its first equipment, that could certainly be modeled to a very high standard. For that matter, look at Dave Frary's On30 model of the Nantucket Railroad http://www.mrscenery.com/pdf/Nantucket.pdf -- a very good example of a top-notch modeler doing On30 to the same consistently high standard as his other work.

 

However, I think I can assert that the Nantucket display is an exception to the run of the mill. At no point did Frary try to apologize for using On30 to represent On3, and he didn't start any threads saying gee, why do some people think On30 is tacky? A good modeler is going to go ahead and, as Bob Brown puts it, "get on with it". What I'm wondering if I'm seeing here is something else, almost an attempt to apologize for something, and attempt to get everyone to reassure someone for something.

 

If you think you can do it, go ahead. Handsome is as handsome does. Nobody needs to give you permission.

 

"Nobody needs to give you permission."   And I certainly wasn't seeking it. "and he didn't start any threads saying gee, why do some people think On30 is tacky?" Is that what I did? Please forgive me, I'm really sorry.

 

However maybe the OP was justified by the vigorous exchange of views it provoked?