GWR tender options still to be modelled (3500 and 4000 gallon)

[MatthewCarty]

Similarly here is 4092 with what is presumably tender 2376 https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=4092&loco=4092

 

A slightly confusing one is 4032. According to https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=4032&type=S&loco=4032 4032 was never fitted with a 'standard' Churchward 3500g tender. Yet there are photos showing it with one at the time it was supposedly with intermediate 2381!

 

[JimC]

4 hours ago, Wenrash said:

So what evidence is there that there were tank swaps?

There's plenty of evidence of frame/tank combinations that match no known as built specification. Later style frames under earlier tanks especially. The drawing numbers suggest that with the possible exception of the well tank/flush tank transition the tank and frame drawings didn't change at the same time, so were nominally interchangeable, and there are also well tanks sitting on later style frames, although one would need to inspect carefully to see whether the whole chassis was a later style, or whether the chassis in these cases was a composite. 2999 has such a tender. I have found photos of A112 style frames under earlier tanks, but those could even be earlier frames with welded additions to resemble A112. 

 

I think its a reasonable supposition that tanks and frames would be separated for overhaul, and it would be in keeping with typical GWR practice that if one needed much more time spent on it than another they woould not be reunited, but that's supposition.

[richbrummitt]

On 17/03/2021 at 13:23, Miss Prism said:

An original intermediate with a pukka A112 underframe. Probably 1926 (the loco's name was removed in 1927).

 

 

 What style of tender did this engine have before the A112 shown? 'ordinary'  Churchward 3,500gal? I ask because it is on my list of engines to do in 1920ish condition and I have the donor loco but the tender needs to be changed from what GF supply. Where are the good places to discover such info (as I have other projects too). TIA.

[MatthewCarty]

Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to these tenders? My first thought was Collett 3500 because of the height and fenders going round the back, but they're on Churchward frames with Churchward style handrails....

 

 

 

Also found pictures of 2927, 2931, 2933, 2937, 2945, 2971 with intermediates, can post links if wanted...

Edited March 18, 2021 by MatthewCarty

[JimC]

One of the late Dean Era 4,000 gallon well tank tenders ended up with the Collett style fenders. Not sure what actual capacity the tank was or whether it was flush floored or had a well tank. My guess is we are looking at works bitsas.

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

What style of tender did this engine have before the A112 shown? 'ordinary'  Churchward 3,500gal?

 

Almost certainly a Churchward 3500g, probably flush-riveted sides if c 1920 and a longitudinal tank.

 

[Wenrash]

I agree with JimC. They are all Dean 4000 gal tenders. 16 made 1900-1901 and four made for engines 100,98,97 and 171. Total = 20. Have a look on page 4 and 5 of this post. 1513 was one that had the fender extended round the back.

Richard A

[Wenrash]

PS according to JimC's drawing register 1513 was built on Lot51 in 1901.

 

Richard A

[MatthewCarty]

Interesting to see the intermediate tender pop up here, referred to as standard in the text, also the frames seem to be what we’d expect on an intermediate.

[Miss Prism]

I suspect the Railway Gazette would have called any of the tenders shown in the various Hall diagrams 'standard'. Churchward 3500g,  Intermediate and Collett 3500g all appeared on early Halls. Here's 4928 outside Paddington in 1933, This tender is probably not the loco's first.

 

 

[JimC]

I think possibly you're reading too much into it, and its just the latest iteration of the standard 3,500 gallon tender. You get all sorts of oddities turning up in weight diagrams - if you have a copy look through Russell with your eyes attuned to these things and you'll see all sorts of peculiarities. Fig 311, for instance, Diagram J of the 47xx, shows a high sided 3,500 gallon tender with a chassis and hand rails like an early flush tank (Collett) tender, while Fig 412, Diagram X for Saint Martin as a Hall, shows what is almost a lot A112 tender, but with shorter sides.  There are also some surprising concoctions amongst the 4-4-0s!

[MatthewCarty]

3 hours ago, JimC said:

I think possibly you're reading too much into it, and its just the latest iteration of the standard 3,500 gallon tender. You get all sorts of oddities turning up in weight diagrams - if you have a copy look through Russell with your eyes attuned to these things and you'll see all sorts of peculiarities. Fig 311, for instance, Diagram J of the 47xx, shows a high sided 3,500 gallon tender with a chassis and hand rails like an early flush tank (Collett) tender, while Fig 412, Diagram X for Saint Martin as a Hall, shows what is almost a lot A112 tender, but with shorter sides.  There are also some surprising concoctions amongst the 4-4-0s!

I'm sure you're right about the use of 'standard', I was just interested to see the drawing of the intermediate tank, as I'm not sure I've seen any drawings (even simple ones like these) of this tank before.

[JimC]

Curiously County Diagram A28 (fig 170 in Russell volume 2) appears to show a high sided tender with a lot A112 chassis, although it has a straight handrail as per flush tank tenders.

[Miss Prism]

37 minutes ago, JimC said:

Curiously County Diagram A28 (fig 170 in Russell volume 2) appears to show a high sided tender with a lot A112 chassis, although it has a straight handrail as per flush tank tenders.

 

Makes me wonder whether that diagram is one of the Dean 4000g units rebuilt to a 3500g capacity. Not possible to tell without a width diagram. Some of the ex-Deans were fitted with normal (curved) handrails. As for the diagram, there is no record of intermediates running with Counties to my knowledge, nor Counties running with ex-Dean units. Beware weight diagrams, as Jim says!

 

 

 

 

[Wenrash]

I consider weight diagrams as such. Only the weight number will be correct. And I am not sure if that is correct in all the diagrams shown.

 

I do not agree with Miss P over the Dean 4000 gal tenders not on the 4-4-0 Counties. Have a look at Russell Vol 2 Fig 166. This is 3500 gal tender. Note the height of the horizontal hand rail the engineman having his hand on it. Then look at Fig 167. The horizontal part is now level with the cab cut out. This is because the tender is a Dean 4000 gal one. Also note that this loco is from the first batch and was steam braked, ref the brake pull rods. So were the Dean 4000 gal tenders originally steam braked. The engine in Fig166 is from a later batch and was vacuum braked. So were all the 3500 gal tenders. It all matches!

 

Richard A

[JimC]

18 minutes ago, Wenrash said:

I consider weight diagrams as such. Only the weight number will be correct. And I am not sure if that is correct in all the diagrams shown.

I note in Russell that all the variations of 3,500 gallon well tank tender show the same weights, which in view of the variations in frames etc seems rather unlikely! Of course these were notional weights anyway, nominally identical tenders would vary slightly.

[Wenrash]

Could not have put it better JimC. I agree.

I should have noted that the photos in Russell are when the Counties were near the end of their lives.

There are two photos, of "County's" in  R C Riley's book "Great Western Album", that have 4000 gal tenders attached. These were taken by W.L. Good.

 

Richard A

[Welsh_John]

Hi

I am  in my late 70's and have just joined.  I have followed the tenders discussion with great interest and was wondering if anybody can direct me to any literature describing the various types of tender used by the GWR please?

Thanks

John

[JimC]

2 hours ago, Welsh_John said:

Hi

I am  in my late 70's and have just joined.  I have followed the tenders discussion with great interest and was wondering if anybody can direct me to any literature describing the various types of tender used by the GWR please?

Thanks

John

I'm not sure there's a good answer to that request. There was a feature in the Great Western Study Group Magazine Pannier, issues 17 and 18, which isn't bad, and the GWSG will supply reprints. There's some information in RCTS part 12 which is only available on the second hand book market, but I don't think its one of their best pieces. There are illustrations at the end of the Russell books, also only on the second hand market, but no significant written content. There's a chapter in my book, but its only seven pages and I could do better now as I've had sight of some significant archive material since then. There's probably a book's worth of material if one were to cover the subject in good detail, but how many people would buy a book on GWR tenders? I can't imagine the author making enough to cover the cost of some reasonably thorough research.  Even though I say it, the web page I wrote the shell of and @Miss Prismhas considerably expanded at http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-tenders.html is probably not the worst piece on the subject.

[JimC]

The current "going Loco" blog at Didcot features Pendennis Castle's record card. https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/product.php/78/going-loco. To my surprise she appears to have twice been fitted with the relatively rare flush tank (=Collett) 3,500 gallon tenders in the 1930s after having had 4,000 gallon tenders.