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PGH's photographs of British Railways from c1960


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The Industrial Railway Society's RECORD magazine No.85 has a report of a visit to Holyhead Breakwater in 1976, when 01002 was out working and not in the gloom of the shed, and states "The locomotives are unusual insofar as they display modern style computer numbers but still retain the lion and wheel emblem and the old green livery"

 

Most published reports say they were black, but unless they say "I was there and noted them painted......", they may be just regurgitating the same correct or incorrect information

 

Maybe those noting it as green were fooled by the green patches applied over the old numbers noted by Merf, and assumed under the grot the remainder was green. However the Tops numbers were applied in June 1974 (per IRS North Wales Handbook), which was well into the BR Blue period.  If they weren't fussy about matching the original paint colour with the new number patches, would they perhaps more likely have used the readily available blue if the locos were black ?  Just a thought  

 

Not passing any judgement here, just presenting the evidence M'lud

Edited by PGH
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I have 2 colour prints of 01002 working on the breakwater which my late brother took in (I think) either 1978 or 1979. The colour of the loco is inconclusive due to the sun angle but it does look black.

My brother took me to the breakwater shed in July 1977 (he was stationed at RAF Valley at the time), everything was locked up but I was able to see the locos through a broken window and managed to get a picture of the side of the cab & number of 01001. It is definitely in black livery, though the funny thing is that looking at the slide through the loupe, the paint patch on the cab side where the new TOPS number was applied does appear to be a dark green shade to it, rather than black. I suspect that's probably just a trick of the light. Unfortunately I don't at present have any means of scanning the slide, if I can do so, I'll post it on here.

 

Douglas

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Dunno if this helps at all in the green and black discussion:

 

http://www.2d53.co.uk/holyhead/Breakwater.htm

 

Dave seems convinced of its colouring and offers another explanation for the differences in reports...

 

David

 

Under the cab side view (third photo down in the above link) it states: "and the new number applied in June 1974, on a strip of fresh black paint" , but according to Merf that was definitely green.  It doesn't look particularly green in the photo, just a bit lighter than the remainder of the cab side, so if that looks black in photos taken only 5 years after it was applied maybe we shouldn't be relying on photographs for any indication of the colour.

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If you want to see green you'll see green, but its black.

 

Did you actually see it then ?

 

If not then that's a fairly unhelpful comment - you could just as easily say if you want to see black you'll see black, but it was green

Edited by PGH
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Thanks for your input Merf, drjcontroller and Enterprisingwestern, its useful to get the views of those that actually saw the locos rather than those who rely on photos (but thanks for those that supplied the links anyway) or printed information.  Unfortunately I didn't note the colour in 1967 when the locos were in much better external condition and it wasn't until 1980 that I noted them as green, principally from 01002, as 01001 was partly sheeted over by that date.  As the note was made at the time of the visit I can only assume that they must have appeared green at that time.

 

There is no doubt that 01002 got a lot of exposure to the elements during its use on the breakwater, which probably accounts for the varying condition of its paintwork.  A former employee of Wilds published an account of his time at the brickworks, which included a period assisting the loco driver on 01002.  He recalled that at times they were caught out by bad weather while working on the breakwater and on one occasion the loco derailed when they were returning, with waves actually breaking over the track.  They had to be rescued by the Wickham trolley and the loco left on the breakwater until the following day.

Edited by PGH
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Thanks for your input Merf, drjcontroller and Enterprisingwestern, its useful to get the views of those that actually saw the locos rather than those who rely on photos (but thanks for those that supplied the links anyway) or printed information.  Unfortunately I didn't note the colour in 1967 when the locos were in much better external condition and it wasn't until 1980 that I noted them as green, principally from 01002, as 01001 was partly sheeted over by that date.  As the note was made at the time of the visit I can only assume that they must have appeared green at that time.

 

There is no doubt that 01002 got a lot of exposure to the elements during its use on the breakwater, which probably accounts for the varying condition of its paintwork.  A former employee of Wilds published an account of his time at the brickworks, which included a period assisting the loco driver on 01002.  He recalled that at times they were caught out by bad weather while working on the breakwater and on one occasion the loco derailed when they were returning, with waves actually breaking over the track.  They had to be rescued by the Wickham trolley and the loco left on the breakwater until the following day.

 

Hi again PGH,

 

Just a thought (about paints and weathering).  Not sure where (or when) I heard this, but I think I'm right in saying that black is not really a 'colour' in the accepted sense and that in reality, it is just a really, really dark version of a 'true' colour, say blue or green.  You can often see this effect with clothing dyes -  the thing starts out ostensibly 'black', but after a lot of wear, washing and UV exposure, you begin to see a very subtle (or not so subtle) hint of green for example.  My point, is that these two locos could have been painted 'black' originally, but after the weathering over time you describe, they took on a green hue which later visitors saw and assumed was the original colour.

 

As I say, just a thought.

 

Regards

Steve N

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Do these help or hinder the discussion ?  1978 iirc.

 

attachicon.gifdas00514.jpg  attachicon.gifdas00515.jpg

 

Hard to say, but in the top photo there seems to be traces of green in the black stripes on the front of 01002, indicating a change in colour.

I do wonder why the 01 numbers were apparently painted on green patches - did the painter think the original colour was green ?  But apart from that I think they were most probably originally black weathered to green (or given a greenish tint), as suggested by Steve N, but more from the action of salt than any other cause.

Edited by PGH
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To add to the mix...

 

Unfortunately my only photos of both locos, taken in 1979, were black and white so I can only say definitely that the livery was "dark grey" from personal observation.  What is clear is that both locos still had the "cycling lion" emblem on the cabside, albeit quite faded - so little evidence of reapplication after repainting.

 

Visible in PGH's pictures (and mine) are the transverse strip lights which the staff switched on the help relieve the gloom inside the shed (I didn't avail myself of a tripod, unfortunately).  It is well-known that fluorescent lighting can cause greenish casts on colour film - so any photos taken in the shed under such condition may appear greenish.

 

Modern Locomotives Illustrated 195 covers these locos and states that the locos only ever carried black livery.  It includes a few pictures of 01002 taken outside the shed, said to be from 1976, when it certainly looked to be iin black livery.  I think it would be fair to say that as 01001 was declared non-operational shortly after my visit, it would be highly unlikely to have been repainted at any time later.

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EddieB, on 28 Mar 2014 - 18:52, said: ... it is well-known that fluorescent lighting can cause greenish casts on colour film - so any photos taken in the shed under such condition may appear greenish.

 

 

Hi EddieB,

 

You raise a good point about the environmental effects on photography. My other passion is aviation and I know from forums on that subject, the passionate debate raised about the colour of paint or hue thereof, evidenced by some wartime colour photo.

 

There (as in the locos above), you are up against many contributing factors: how faithful was the film used, in rendering the true paint colour anyway?  Was the film originally developed correctly (and any prints for that matter)?  How have the film (or prints) degraded in the intervening years?  Under what environmental lighting conditions were the photos taken (including natural light or flash)?

 

On the latter point, a classic example is a wartime photo of a Bristol Beaufighter, flying above the Mediteranean - much conjecture about the shade of blue used on the underside of the aircraft, but pointless to debate this in a way, because any photo taken in that environment, will have a blue cast due to the sky above and sea below.

 

So unless someone at the time, stood next to the object with a Munsell or BSI Chart in hand for comparison, photographs are, by definition, always going to be second best as evidence.

 

Steve N

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I noted them as green, and a commercial colour photo I have shows a definite green 'tinge'.

 

 

The Industrial Railway Society's RECORD magazine No.85 has a report of a visit to Holyhead Breakwater in 1976, when 01002 was out working and not in the gloom of the shed, and states "The locomotives are unusual insofar as they display modern style computer numbers but still retain the lion and wheel emblem and the old green livery"

 

Most published reports say they were black, but unless they say "I was there and noted them painted......", they may be just regurgitating the same correct or incorrect information

 

Quite curious.  I've checked IRR85 and yes, it's a report of a visit in 1976 when 01002 was observed outside the shed.  On the other hand, other photos of the same loco before and after that date do appear to show it as being black.  Black would be my recollection too - but I wouldn't rely on the accuracy of my memory after so many years!

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Did you actually see it then ?

 

If not then that's a fairly unhelpful comment - you could just as easily say if you want to see black you'll see black, but it was green

 

I didnt Phillip, I wasnt born until 1983, Ive only ever asked other people who had seen them and told me they were black.

Just because I didnt see them doesnt mean I dont know.  A lot of people were not born when events in history have happened, that doesnt mean they dont know by research or cant form an opinion. yes its best to have seen them to be sure and not to continue wrong information but I was confident in what I had been told in that they were black.

 

What I meant was that it can look green . In this case especially when its got wasp stripes which we are so used to seeing on a green livery.

A bit like on this photo of a Hudswell which was green but could be mistaken for black..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8420589553

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I know nothing about the actual colour of these locos.

 

However, it is possible to compare two areas of a photo and see whether one area is more green or less green than the other area. Although colour films age and vary a lot, they tend to vary equally all over. It is unlikely that one part of an image would gain, or lose, much more green than another part.

 

post-1103-0-70453300-1396143620.jpg

In this first screenshot I am picking the colour from the wasp stripes (red ring). You can see that the intensity values on the right are

Red: 67 = 34%

Green: 68 = 34.5%

Blue: 62 = 31.5%

The values are low (maximum white is 255) and almost equal, meaning that it is a dark near-neutral grey shade with just a fraction more green than red. We know that this in reality is black.

 

 

post-1103-0-13592400-1396143619.jpg

In this second screenshot I am picking the colour from the cab side. You can see that the intensity values on the right are now

Red: 85 = 37.5%

Green: 79 = 35%

Blue: 63 = 27.5%

The values are now higher, meaning that it is a paler shade than the wasp stripe. In proportion there is more red in it, and less blue. But the proportion of green is almost exactly the same. It is therefore very unlikely that it is in fact a green colour, if we know that the wasp stripe is in fact black. A green colour would have a much higher proportion of green in it than a black colour. The cab-side must be either black, or weathered black, or dark grey, or with that extra bit of red in it maybe a very dark brown.

 

Edit to add % figures.

 

Martin.

Edited by martin_wynne
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