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Was anyone tried to model an Irish Railway, now first attempt at a loco!


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Is there anyone out there with any experience of working in 2mm scale on Irish prototypes. I'm pondering trying to build a steam locomotive to run on 10.5mm track! It may seem slightly off the wall, but there are some really attractive machines that used to run over there.

I have been studying the various association diagrams and I'm coming to the conclusion, that it is perfectably feasible. Mind you there is a lot to learn. I also need to get round to rejoining the Association.

Feel free to let me know what the collective think

Paul

Edited by Flying Fox 34F
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Hi there,

There are a couple of irish N gauge layouts, I remember 1 steam era one set in the CIE days,

If I find the link or more info then I'll let you know.

 

What are you hoping to model the south or north? The north have a couple of engines that are very similar to the LMS seeing as the NCC was its sister company.

I model the LMS NCC and UTA although in OO Gauge.

Many thanks

Nelson

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Found them,

I seen on your profile your a fan of the GNRI so this might not suit you?

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2210-Kilnevan-my-Irish-N-gauge-layout

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2225-Moogle-s-Irish-N-Gauge?highlight=Kilnevan

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2226-Moogle-s-Workbench?highlight=Kilnevan

The first one is his layout based on the CIE and the rest are his workbench, some beautifully made fine models there.

 

If you are a fan of the GNRI, then I would recommend modelling it in OO Gauge, there is a company who make RTR GNRI wagons and there is also a GNRI OO Gauge body for a 2-4-2 tank on shapeways, along with GNRI carriages. (I'm not forcing you, if you want a challenge then go ahead with your N gauge plans, I'll look forward to what ever decision you decide)

PM me if you want more details, I'll be happy to help

Many thanks

Nelson

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Yes, there is a history of the odd modeller working to 10.5 gauge in 2mm scale.   Whether they are still active, or on this forum, I don't know.   Some material appeared in the 2mm Magazine in the 1980's, including various proposed standards, available through the 2mm Magazine Backnumbers. 

 

There is, of course, a fairly well known modeller of Irish 3ft narrow gauge in 2mm, regular around here. 

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Nelson and Nigel,

Thank you for your replies. I have taken a look at the links you provided Nelson, they are quite impressive. You are quite correct that I lean towards the GNRi, but i do like the NCC. I have made models in various scales in the past from 2mm through to 15mm and i've amassed as many drawings as i can get my hands on for GNRi and CDRJC prototypes.

Currently, i fancy the challenge of creating a GNRi 0-6-0 possibly an A class. I figure that if i can get the smallest standard design to work, then i have a fighting chance with the other classes. The other part of my twisted logic is that in hidden area's i can use plain Peco HOn3 track. In fact i could use this as a test track to assist with loco construction. As a side track i want to build one in 15mm scale one day!

Finally, Nigel i will have to track down the 3' gauge modeller you refer to.

I will post more soon

Paul

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I am aware of one 2mm modeller who is an Rmweb member and who is experimenting with 10.5mm gauge track/stock. Another 2mm member arranged some years ago for Studio Scale Models to reduce their J15 kit to 2mm scale. Allen Doherty of Worsley works has also produced some 2mm scale Irish stock - mostly GSWR or NCC stuff.

 

Andy

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I have always been interested in the Irish narrow gauge - County Donegal, Londonderry and Lough Swilly etc. Out of idle curiosity, gauge apart, are there any substantial differences between Irish main line stock and main line stock in England/Wales/Scotland ?

 

Dennis

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The Donegal and Swilly stock is quite large by narrow gauge standards. The later locomotives are usually 11 feet tall and upto 8 feet wide. Should be big enough for 2n3 or Nn3 depending on how you want to describe the scale gauge combination. As for Irish Standard gauge, i have found that it is the carriages that make the most of the wider gauge, but only by a few inches in most cases. Remember CIE and NIR used standard BR designs up until recent times. This is why you see the occasional orange and black vehicle on british preserved railways!

Paul

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The RPSI (railway preservation society Ireland) carriages are BR MK 2s that were bought by NIR for use over here, the RPSI purchased them afterwards when NIR no longer needed the MK 2s.

 

After the 1941 blitz at Belfast the NCC at York Road were hit quite badly so the LMS sent over some MR carriages to make up for the ones that were damaged during the blitz, this was the same with wagons.

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Is there anyone out there with any experience of working in 2mm scale on Irish prototypes. I'm pondering trying to build a steam locomotive to run on 10.5mm track! It may seem slightly off the wall, but there are some really attractive machines that used to run over there.

I have been studying the various association diagrams and I'm coming to the conclusion, that it is perfectably feasible. Mind you there is a lot to learn. I also need to get round to rejoining the Association.

Feel free to let me know what the collective think

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

I am the 2mm modeller to whom Andy was referring! Sorry I've not contributed sooner. Well done on considering 10.5mm in 2mm scale. I'm often disappointed when attending exhibitions in Ireland that most of the layouts are utilising model track gauges which are inaccurate for the mainland and even more inaccurate when used for layouts based on the neighbouring island. It really depends how much you want to take on the (mostly) scratch building that would be involved. I would be the first to admit that there is more help available in 4mm scale in terms of kits, most of which can be built to 21mm gauge, and also in terms of wheels and gauges.

However, if you fancy a challenge then 10.5mm modelling using 2FS standards is possible. It is not my main interest but I have done a little moonlighting with the railways of the southern part of the Republic, not too much of a GNRI person myself, bit too brash by half for my liking ;)

Anyway here's a couple of pics of the pathetically small accumulation of my own efforts so far:

 

post-9616-0-95037800-1387191481_thumb.jpg

 

This is a closer view of the loco chassis for a MGWR J26 0-6-0T, using Association parts, a Faulhaber motor and recently fitted with Mikroantrieb gears. The cab would be at the nearer end in the view:

 

post-9616-0-68717800-1387191630_thumb.jpg

 

Two of the wagons. The open is a CB&SCR wagon built from drawings in an old Model Railways by Tim Cramer while the van uses some shortened Parkwood sides and an attempt at a Bulleid triangulated underframe:

 

post-9616-0-51163700-1387191769_thumb.jpg

 

The Peco oil tank wagon has just had its wheels changed but would need more work to model an Irish prototype.

 

The stock is sitting on some track built to 10.5mm gauge using Association sleepers (Irish sleepers are the same width as on the mainland) and Association Code 40 rail. Some years ago the late Phil Kerr produced some roller gauges for both Irish Standard and Narrow 3' gauge and I have been fortunate to acquire a set from a fellow member. Prior to that my first length of track was built using a vernier as a track gauge!

For rolling stock Association 13mm axles are long enough to take the wheels pushed out to suit the wider gauge. Unfortunately the Association no longer stocks underframes or W iron etches which use these axles. I have stockpiled some for the future but I expect an appeal via the 2mm magazine would find out some members who have products that they wouldn't mind parting with. Interestingly I have recently bought some etches for GS&WR six wheel coaches from Worsley Works and these are designed for 13mm axles.

Irish modelling certainly has its attractions and I would recommend taking out a subscription to New Irish Lines, not only for the articles but also for pointers to information about Irish prototypes:

http://newirishlines.org/

 

Let me know if you are interested in more details, Paul, as I am more than willing to share any information that I have.

 

David

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Nice work! I thought about 10.5mm gauge recently for my new layout project, but on balance think that 9.42mm gauge has too many benefits to be overlooked. Martin Wynne has made an interesting point today in another thread about width over the wheels being more important than a totally accurate track gauge http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork-some-drawings/page-13&do=findComment&comment=1266421 - but everyone is entitled to their own view and to model how they think best, of course!.

 

Did you use standard axle muffs for the loco? I tried 11mm gauge a while back and found that was pushing the limits a bit too far.

 

What are you doing for the J26 superstructure? Kit or scratchbuilt?

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Hi Paul,

 

I am the 2mm modeller to whom Andy was referring! Sorry I've not contributed sooner. Well done on considering 10.5mm in 2mm scale. I'm often disappointed when attending exhibitions in Ireland that most of the layouts are utilising model track gauges which are inaccurate for the mainland and even more inaccurate when used for layouts based on the neighbouring island. It really depends how much you want to take on the (mostly) scratch building that would be involved. I would be the first to admit that there is more help available in 4mm scale in terms of kits, most of which can be built to 21mm gauge, and also in terms of wheels and gauges.

However, if you fancy a challenge then 10.5mm modelling using 2FS standards is possible. It is not my main interest but I have done a little moonlighting with the railways of the southern part of the Republic, not too much of a GNRI person myself, bit too brash by half for my liking ;)

Anyway here's a couple of pics of the pathetically small accumulation of my own efforts so far:

 

attachicon.gif005.JPG

 

This is a closer view of the loco chassis for a MGWR J26 0-6-0T, using Association parts, a Faulhaber motor and recently fitted with Mikroantrieb gears. The cab would be at the nearer end in the view:

 

attachicon.gif002.JPG

 

Two of the wagons. The open is a CB&SCR wagon built from drawings in an old Model Railways by Tim Cramer while the van uses some shortened Parkwood sides and an attempt at a Bulleid triangulated underframe:

 

attachicon.gif004.JPG

 

The Peco oil tank wagon has just had its wheels changed but would need more work to model an Irish prototype.

 

The stock is sitting on some track built to 10.5mm gauge using Association sleepers (Irish sleepers are the same width as on the mainland) and Association Code 40 rail. Some years ago the late Phil Kerr produced some roller gauges for both Irish Standard and Narrow 3' gauge and I have been fortunate to acquire a set from a fellow member. Prior to that my first length of track was built using a vernier as a track gauge!

For rolling stock Association 13mm axles are long enough to take the wheels pushed out to suit the wider gauge. Unfortunately the Association no longer stocks underframes or W iron etches which use these axles. I have stockpiled some for the future but I expect an appeal via the 2mm magazine would find out some members who have products that they wouldn't mind parting with. Interestingly I have recently bought some etches for GS&WR six wheel coaches from Worsley Works and these are designed for 13mm axles.

Irish modelling certainly has its attractions and I would recommend taking out a subscription to New Irish Lines, not only for the articles but also for pointers to information about Irish prototypes:

http://newirishlines.org/

 

Let me know if you are interested in more details, Paul, as I am more than willing to share any information that I have.

 

David

David,

Thank you for your post. It is very encouraging to see your work. I was wondering about track gauges, but ironically i have used a vernier to construct track in larger scales before, so at least it is feasible at the start. I like to scratchbuild, it suits my urgeto create, but when i need a quick fix i resort to my ready run N gauge and 00. This is very much a long term idea, i do not want to rush!

My liking of the GNRI comes from a photograph of a member of the PPs class at Bundoran and the lines of the old INWR appeal more than the main line between Belfast and Dublin, but the Great Victoria Street station has something about it.

I'm more than happy to have more information. It stops mistakes.

Finally, i have received the New Irish Lines for sveral years, but i have just realised that i did not get the November issue! Has it been sent out yet?

Paul

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Nice work! I thought about 10.5mm gauge recently for my new layout project, but on balance think that 9.42mm gauge has too many benefits to be overlooked. Martin Wynne has made an interesting point today in another thread about width over the wheels being more important than a totally accurate track gauge http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork-some-drawings/page-13&do=findComment&comment=1266421 - but everyone is entitled to their own view and to model how they think best, of course!.

 

Did you use standard axle muffs for the loco? I tried 11mm gauge a while back and found that was pushing the limits a bit too far.

 

What are you doing for the J26 superstructure? Kit or scratchbuilt?

 

Hi,

 

I don't really want to say much more about the question of gauge as I think that my comments about Irish exhibitions made my view at least partially clear. The other factor for me was that, as I will have to scratchbuild or use scratch-aids to construct an accurate picture of Irish railways, then I may as well use the correct track gauge.

 

I did use the standard muffs by the simple expedient of using the frame bushes with the large flange on the inside.

 

The superstructure of the J26 will have to be scratchbuilt as I think it unlikely that I could persuade SSM to shoot down their lovely little 4mm J26. :no:

 

David

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David,

Thank you for your post. It is very encouraging to see your work. I was wondering about track gauges, but ironically i have used a vernier to construct track in larger scales before, so at least it is feasible at the start. I like to scratchbuild, it suits my urgeto create, but when i need a quick fix i resort to my ready run N gauge and 00. This is very much a long term idea, i do not want to rush!

My liking of the GNRI comes from a photograph of a member of the PPs class at Bundoran and the lines of the old INWR appeal more than the main line between Belfast and Dublin, but the Great Victoria Street station has something about it.

I'm more than happy to have more information. It stops mistakes.

Finally, i have received the New Irish Lines for sveral years, but i have just realised that i did not get the November issue! Has it been sent out yet?

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

To answer your last question first. I believe that the November issue has been delayed by the final preparation for the release of Alan O'Rourke's book on the North Kerry lines. NIL hasn't turned up yet so I suppose that it will be next month before it appears.

 

Most of my interest lies in the lines to the South and West of Dublin and while there are reasonable histories of lines such as the Dublin South Eastern, Waterford, Limerick and Western and the Cork, Bandon and South Coast, the books that are missing are those which we take pretty much for granted in modelling U.K. railways. These are the specialist publications including drawings which deal with locos, coaches, wagons and structures of individual railway companies. Having visited the IRRS library in Dublin recently I am sure that the information is available but the business of cataloguing the shelves and shelves of data is still going to take many more years. Only then would it be practicable to begin the process of publishing.

 

David

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David,

Thanks for letting me know that the New Irish Lines has not arrived yet.  I'll not pester Alan O'Rourke.

You are quite correct about the lack of detailed information relating to Irish Railways.  I have spent time during the last three years collecting anything relating to the GNRi, bith books and drawings.  The UFTM holds various diagrams that are GNRi, but they are basic.  I'm aware of the various IRRS collections and I have purchased two drawing sets from Richard McLachlan (i think that is how you spell Richard's surname!), but there is always more to aquire.  I have started creating my own artwork of various locomotives and it was whilst reviewing some of these that I decided to be brave and start this topic.

post-20275-0-15760200-1387548851_thumb.jpg

 

 

This is a GNRi A class.  They first appeared in 1882 and were rebuilt with larger boilers in the 1910's.  The last ones were withdrawn in the late 50's.  The drawing of of the rebuilt version, but it is still pretty small.  The coupled wheelbase is 7' 3" + 7' 3"!  Any way i have started to draw up some construction sketches using details on the 2mm Association website, (I will rejoin after Christmas).  If i'm feeling brave and I can make them more presentable I may post them on here as well!  It looks like this will the one to try and build.  I hope I can be as neat as you with a soldering iron.

Paul

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Hi Paul,

 

Interestingly, Richard McLachlan was the man who showed me round the IRRS library when I was in Dublin in September. He is also a regular attender at the meetings in London which I try to get to myself. The next meeting on 16th January is titled 'Irish Railway Modelling Comes of Age'. I shall certainly be there even though I know that it will mainly cover 4mm and 7mm scales.

That A class looks a delightful little loco and, in profile, has a distinct look of the MGWR 101 class (aka J15) although with the GNRI rounded cab.

Most of my soldering in 2mm scale is done with a 1mm bit and also with an RSU. Many people use too much solder, there are very few stresses on stock in 2mm and in many cases only the minimum of solder is necessary to make a joint.

Look forward to seeing more from you.

 

David

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Regarding the gauge issue to me the Irish railways look different because of the gauge so to use the 9.42 will lose part of that. Using 9.42 instead of 10.5 will be an error of about 10% quite large. As you profess to enjoy scratch building I would give it a try. I have a feeling if you don't have a go you will kick yourself later. As with the rest of David's work it looks superb.

I look forward to seeing a future Irish 2mm layout.

Don

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Regarding the gauge issue to me the Irish railways look different because of the gauge so to use the 9.42 will lose part of that. Using 9.42 instead of 10.5 will be an error of about 10% quite large. As you profess to enjoy scratch building I would give it a try. I have a feeling if you don't have a go you will kick yourself later. As with the rest of David's work it looks superb.

I look forward to seeing a future Irish 2mm layout.

Don

 

Just done a quick, rough back of the envelope calc, based on Martin Wynne's idea. I reckon the width over 2FS wheels is around 0.5mm over scale for 9.42mm gauge. 

 

Maybe I should have done my 11mm (5ft 6in) gauge experiment as 10.5mm gauge, in which case the 2FS wheel muffs should have worked better.

 

I do agree that Irish track (and other broad gauges) ought to look wider than standard. You do kind of sense it in photos and in real life, even when there is nothing to give an exact comparison.

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I do agree that Irish track (and other broad gauges) ought to look wider than standard. You do kind of sense it in photos and in real life, even when there is nothing to give an exact comparison.

 

I think that it is the fact that Irish sleepers are the same length as in Britain that makes the wider gauge more obvious.

 

David

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Hi Paul,

 

Interestingly, Richard McLachlan was the man who showed me round the IRRS library when I was in Dublin in September. He is also a regular attender at the meetings in London which I try to get to myself. The next meeting on 16th January is titled 'Irish Railway Modelling Comes of Age'. I shall certainly be there even though I know that it will mainly cover 4mm and 7mm scales.

That A class looks a delightful little loco and, in profile, has a distinct look of the MGWR 101 class (aka J15) although with the GNRI rounded cab.

Most of my soldering in 2mm scale is done with a 1mm bit and also with an RSU. Many people use too much solder, there are very few stresses on stock in 2mm and in many cases only the minimum of solder is necessary to make a joint.

Look forward to seeing more from you.

 

David

David,

I ought to contact Richard and arrange the purchase of more drawings, but funds limited at present. I would love to attend the meeting in January, but as usual i'm working on late shift and i'm unable to get the time off. It would have been interseting to see what other modellers have done. Many thanks for the solder tips. I will have to update my equipment. I have been working on some construction diagrams to ensure that i do not mismeasure the various parts when i start building work. I will be contacting Eileens Emporium for various bits of metal after Christmas. When i get so far along i'll publish the relevant diagram and what i have managed to build! One thing is for certain it will not be a quick build.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Paul

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Well everybody, christmas was very good, but no railway related goodies. My New Year present to myself arrived today in the form of my 2mm Association membership renewal.

You'll notice that i have adjusted the topic title! This is to reflect my next intention of trying to build a model of the A class locomotive i posted. The metal materials have been ordered and the various association parts required will be sent for later. I hope to give you updates as i progress, but haste is not an option if i want it to work out to my satisfaction.

Anyway a Happy New Year to you all

Paul

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Well we are twenty days into 2014 and i only a little detail to pass on. All the components for the "A" have been ordered. I hope the shopkeeper has all the parts required before his February sabatical. As for the actual model, i have hacked out the main-frames and the keeper plates. I need to fashion the spacer set next. I will explain more when i have them all prepared so that i can photograph my efforts. Then, you will be able to figure out my methods.

Paul

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Here we go.  Here is the first picture relating to the GNRI A class 0-6-0.

 

 

 

post-20275-0-51189700-1390386236_thumb.jpg

 

These are the Locomotive Frame Plates.  They are not in their finally finished state, the length is deliberately overlong to allow them to be bolted together outside the finished length and the axle holes are still to be opened out to the finally size of 1.5mm diameter.  Then, I will slot out the axle holes to allow the wheels to be removed and replaced without taking them off the muffs.  This is the method shown in the article by Dave Holland for his GER models.  His comments on wheels appeals to my sense of fun!  As I have not yet got a lathe and no access to a suitable back to back gauge I will have to hack one out of brass rod. 

 

The next components to cut will be two lengths of brass.  One 6mm square bar and the other 0.8mm strip, 5mm wide.  The plan is to fit these between the outer frames to form the stretchers and the ballast weight.  I just have to ensure I drill the holes correctly.  These will be spotted from the outer frame plates.  Once done, I can get out the soldering iron, whilst aligning it all with the fixing bolts.

 

I have no idea how long this will take, but I have a nice pile of P/B filings to dispose of.

 

Paul

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