Tank Wagons

[Caley Jim]

My excuse for research into tank wagon markings, a quick google around the internet found some old photographs, but mainly from the 1930s 'till the 1960s, proper pre-grouping pictures seem to be none existent, I looked at other peoples models for these.

Here are 4 to be going on with.

 

I am aware of a 2FS model of the Oakbank bogie tank.

 As an aside, I visited the Summerlee Industrial Heritage Museum, located on the site of Summerlee Iron Works, Coatbridge, with my daughter and grandchildren yesterday.  Well worth a visit if you're in the area.

 

Jim

[Poggy1165]

There are, I think, some early tanker photos in the HMRS Collection. You can search the collection online and there are definitely some (not a vast amount) to be found, and, of course, copies can be bought at popular prices.

 

That's my HMRS advert for the day done. What made me think of it was that years ago I bought some from them. Of these, I think the Manchester and Sheffield Tar Works is early, as it quotes the Midland Railway, and the Lindsey and Kesteven Chemical Co and Sheffield Chemical Co (Attercliffe) certainly look early. (Edit - given that they only have one set of brakes each they should be.)

 

The geographical spread of my choices won't surprise anyone!

Edited April 20, 2016 by Poggy1165

[Penlan]

There are, I think, some early tanker photos in the HMRS Collection. You can search the collection online and there are definitely some (not a vast amount) to be found, and, of course, copies can be bought at popular prices.

 

That's my HMRS advert for the day done. What made me think of it was that years ago I bought some from them. Of these, I think the Manchester and Sheffield Tar Works is early, as it quotes the Midland Railway, and the Lindsey and Kesteven Chemical Co and Sheffield Chemical Co (Attercliffe) certainly look early. (Edit - given that they only have one set of brakes each they should be.)

 

The geographical spread of my choices won't surprise anyone!

Well, I tried putting in at least 3 of the pro-forma texts/lines required for the search - Nothing found.  

Not impressed.

[Poggy1165]

Funny that. I tested it myself by putting in the three business names I quoted, and they came up straightaway.

 

If you just put in tank wagons (nothing else) you get a very long selection of tank wagons, most of which, admittedly, are relatively modern. (By which I mean post 1923!)

[Edwardian]

 

If you just put in tank wagons (nothing else) you get a very long selection of tank wagons, most of which, admittedly, are relatively modern. (By which I mean post 1923!)

 

Struggling to think of a better definition of "modern" than post-1923!

[Penlan]

Well, rather than be clever and enter as many fields as I could, one field (Arbroath Gas Company) brought forth a result. Doh....

Edited April 26, 2016 by Penlan

[relaxinghobby]

I've now reworked the design of the decal/transfers so that the white lettering has black and dark

grey backgrounds ready to go on very dark coloured wagons.

I used the open source drawing programme Inkscape and borrowed the use of someones

Epsom laser-jet printer.

 

 

 

The sheet of crafty decal paper is cellotaped to a piece of board to hold it flat whilst varnishing.

[relaxinghobby]

 

This little industrial railway that runs around the back streets, terraced housing and red brick satanic mills needs fuel for it's engines. They have just negotiated a deal with the coal brokers Stephenson Clark for loco coal.

Here a train of empties is being returned from the engine shed back to the transfers sidings with the local mainline railway.

 

A pre-grouping fantasy, the industrial loco was ordered with large wheels for it's type as it was hoped a new lucrative passenger service would bring in lots of profit.

This never materialised so such a loco with 4 foot 6 inch wheels was over optimistic.

 

Just a picture to show the decals inaction.

Edited May 13, 2016 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

 

Tankers with their Craftypaper decal/transfers in place and a coat of flat varnish.

 

Also a size comparison, the two tankers on the ends are the normal 1920s era 14 ton types.

Edited May 14, 2016 by relaxinghobby

[micklner]

Good source of decals

 

http://www.robbiesrollingstock.co.uk

[brian777999]

Good source of decals

 

http://www.robbiesrollingstock.co.uk

 

That email contact address is coming up as invalid. Can anybody shed some light on that ?

[choo1choo]

That email contact address is coming up as invalid. Can anybody shed some light on that ?

Evening,

 

Just tried your link(19.45] no problems . Could be your end,

 

Cheers,

 

Craig.

[relaxinghobby]

On 16/04/2016 at 20:35, Caley Jim said:

Here are 4 to be going on with.

 

I am aware of a 2FS model of the Oakbank bogie tank.

 As an aside, I visited the Summerlee Industrial Heritage Museum, located on the site of Summerlee Iron Works, Coatbridge, with my daughter and grandchildren yesterday.  Well worth a visit if you're in the area.

 

Jim

 

Thanks to Jim for the pictures of these prehistoric tanker, small and old.

I can build a few more ancient tanker wagons for the fleet, my criteria is that they have to be different in size and shape to any current RTR models. Since most tankers seem to be painted black the outline shape is the important criteria to go for. Since by the 1930s the tanks where built up to the loading gauge anything representing older prototypes would have to be noticeably smaller. Looking at the old photos here above and I think the Bristol Docks Railway or Devonport dock railway can't remember exactly, this is an exercise in combining chassis and bodies to make new wagons.

 

[relaxinghobby]

I've run out of plastic strip so have used coffee stirrers to build up suitable timber baulks. Using PVA Everbuild 502 Wood Adhesive I've glued the stirrers into pairs. This make of glue in it's handy yellow squeezey bottle and nice dispensing cap which seems to keep the air out of the bottle and not get bunged up with dried glue. Makes it easy to apply the right amount.

The label says it cures in 10 minutes but I leave it over night before I do anything.

Then trimmed and sanded to the dimension that seem right for the model, 4mm by two stirrers thick.

 

 

Wood to metal bonds made with superglue.

Based on some photos of old tanker wagons I've built up the wood to support the tanks. Parts are random from some table top sale of odd bits and broken wagons back in pre-lockdown exhibition days. I've got a couple of tanks, this plastic one is I think a Triang TT scale one.

Tank fixed in place with an 18 by 3mm self tapping screw.

The chassis is an old Hornby I think, metal, I've cut various protrudencies off and the old couplings, this was a converter wagon it had Triang on one end and Hornby-Doublo on the other.

I'll change the wheels later for finer scale metal ones, I've got none in stock at the moment.

Still to do strapping details and end baulks.

 

 

Parts in preparation, bottom left hand corner some timber which is 4 stirrers thick.

Edited May 19, 2021 by relaxinghobby
re-write

[relaxinghobby]

 

More timber framing made up of glued together coffee stirrers, then some wires added to represent rodding that's seems to be a feature of early tankers in old photos. The wire is copper with the electrical insulation stripped off. A tiny slither of the plastic insulation sheaf represents nuts.

The tank is a Tri-ang TT3 one so smaller than the usual 00 ones. The turret looked too small so I replaced it with the end from a plastic biro body which looks about the right size.

 

 

Painted up and screwed to the chassis. Straps from slithers of leftovers from a metal etch, could have used wire I guess but I wanted a flat look. One end glued in and when the glue is set it will be time for the other end.

[phil_sutters]

I do like the chunky framing on some of these older tank wagons. I have cobbled together one round and one rectangular for my Highbridge Wharf diorama, based on photos from Richard Kelham's PO wagons of Somerset. I have yet to work out exactly how the rodding that goes across the top of the rectangular one lies and what it does. The Highbridge Anthracite Fuel Company used tar in their solid fuel briquettes and had a large tar storage tank alongside their works on the Wharf. I printed the lettering on ordinary 100gsm paper and stuck it on with double sided tape.

You can see my efforts at 

 

and

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by phil_sutters
Incorrect link

[relaxinghobby]

Tank end: this is the look I am going for. I saw it somewhere in a photo of an older tanker. The end of the tank is much narrower than the chassis that it sits on. On more modern designs the tank is as wide as or wider than the chassis. I'm going for the skinny version. Also I wanted big chunks of timber holding the tank in place.

 

You can see the old Hornby wheels lying about they are hollow and come in two halves. Once the metal axle is pushed out they fall apart. Somehow I've got to fiddle in some new wheels and axles.

 

 

In reply to Phil and his wagon photos in the above post. The roding on the rectangular or cuboid tank must be there to hold the end structures together and I would think it needs to be straight. The answer is to find a good picture of such a tank from above.  Do any survive? They have a rectangular tanker wagon in a museum in Scotland, does that have one such rod ?

[phil_sutters]

23 minutes ago, relaxinghobby said:

In reply to Phil and his wagon photos in the above post. The roding on the rectangular or cuboid tank must be there to hold the end structures together and I would think it needs to be straight. The answer is to find a good picture of such a tank from above.  Do any survive? They have a rectangular tanker wagon in a museum in Scotland, does that have one such rod ?

The photo of the Roads Reconstruction tank wagon in PO Wagons of Somerset is unfortunately side on with the top level with the camera. Nevertheless the rodding seems to start in the channel of the vertical end framing, run towards the filler, where it kinks around it and then travels to the diagonally opposite upright framing channel. My rod's diameter is quite a bit overscale. This and a newer wagon with the lower frames were photographed at Yeovil gas works in 1954.

[Edwardian]

Would the Parish care to consider this tank  wagon?

 

 

Apologies for the lack of resolution.

 

This is Richmond. 

 

I can be confident that this picture was taken at sometime before August 1906, the earliest posting date of a postcard using this picture that I have yet seen.

 

There is a reason to suppose that it might date from before 1891, though that is not conclusive in my view and does seem rather early for such a tank wagon.

 

I wonder if anyone could take an educated guess at the sort of vehicle we might be looking at, I'd be grateful.

 

The NER had relatively few registered POs because it used its own wagons for mineral traffic.  A tank wagon would be an exception. 

[Nearholmer]

I'm definitely here to learn, rather than teach, but the splodgy blocks of lettering seems to me to be compatible with "Anglo Persian Oil Co.", which would put it at 1909 at the earliest, and might be narrowed down if anyone knows when they started adding "Ltd" to their name.

 

None of the other early oil companies that I can call to mind would be compatible with the smudges.

 

Has decanting of these tanks at such places been discussed here? Its something that has always puzzled me. Syphon pipe, small hand-operated priming pump, and hundreds of two-gallon cans?

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

I'd say the wagon is probably one built to the 1907 RCH specification. It definitely looks too modern for 1891.

 

Most earlier tank wagons tended to have rather less overhang outside the wheelbase.

 

The lettering could possibly be "British Petroleum Co Ltd" as carried prior to the change to "Anglo Persian Oil Co", and presumably for some time afterwards until the entire fleet had been rebranded.

 

John

Edited February 24, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Andy Hayter]

But we know that RCH adopted best practice so the wagon could pre-date the 1907 specification date.

[jcm@gwr]

2 hours ago, relaxinghobby said:

 

You can see the old Hornby wheels lying about they are hollow and come in two halves. Once the metal axle is pushed out they fall apart. Somehow I've got to fiddle in some new wheels and axles.

 

 

 

I've upgraded a few of these old cast wagon chassis, most modern axle sets will go in,

Hornby, Dapol, etc. (including Lima, if you are running on older style track).

Once you've put in the axle sets, you use the Peco hard plastic bearings (Peco R-15,

approx 25 for £2.66) they're a reasonable fit, so you adjust them for free running, 

then a small drop of superglue to fix them in place.

[Nearholmer]

49 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The lettering could possibly be "British Petroleum Co Ltd" as carried prior to the change to "Anglo Persian Oil Co", and presumably for some time afterwards until the entire fleet had been rebranded.

The original BP was a separate entity from APOC. It was European owned, and acted as distributor for Shell in Britain. APOC  acquired the original BP during WW1, and then used the BP name on some of its products. APOC became Anglo Iranian OC, and didn’t rename as a company to BP until 1954, despite having used the name on products from I think 1917. It’s all a bit confusing, because both the original BP and APOC were part-owned/owned by the government anyway - the original BP was I think taken into government ownership during WW1 because it had major German shareholders.

 

So, did the original, pre-WW1, BP have wagons?

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Dunsignalling]

58 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The original BP was a separate entity from APOC. It was European owned, and acted as distributor for Shell in Britain. APOC  acquired the original BP during WW1, and then used the BP name on some of its products. APOC became Anglo Iranian OC, and didn’t rename as a company to BP until 1954, despite having used the name on products from I think 1917. It’s all a bit confusing, because both the original BP and APOC were part-owned/owned by the government anyway - the original BP was I think taken into government ownership during WW1 because it had major German shareholders.

 

So, did the original, pre-WW1, BP have wagons?

 

 

Text and photos in "Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain" (Tourett), pps 45-52.

 

British Petroleum was in business from 1901 with references to wagons built in 1901 and 1905 and official BP photos (Plates 82 and 83, albeit not dated) showing the lettering I quoted.

 

Both are evidently Class B tanks and the lettering is in a serif style which doesn't appear in photos of later-built wagons. My interpretation (open to correction) is that this style predates the APOC takeover and is probably that carried from new.

 

It's not clear how quickly APOC eliminated wagon branding for the earlier business, after its acquisition in 1917.

 

John