NGS present day commissions

[Revolution Ben]

The only ones I recall were the very basic and incorrect variant old style Farish Mk2s and they're difficult/expensive to source second-hand. There's nothing new and certainly nothing of the 'blue riband' quality and standard that I'm aware of.

 

I appreciate that they are 'sectorisation' era and not bang up to date, and understand that this 'trial' is to target a different period. However, as the sectorisation period is being deliberately left out this time will it just get ignored or will a similar 'trial/test' for that era take place in the future? 

 

G.

 

Hi Grahame,

 

I take your point about the NSE coaches being "old" Farish but at least there were some.... albeit hard to get hold of now.

 

We focussed on this era because (depending on specific date) sectorisation era modellers can justify some of our BR Blue or similar RTR models.  Those depicting the present day have had almost nothing except the Network Rail snowplough and, arguably, the maroon/yellow ends inspection saloon.

 

If this project had been a hit then a sectorisation commission would have been a no-brainer - and lots of options including SLOA brake, NSE or construction QM brake van, NSE or RR Mk2s or Scotrail Inspection Saloon etc etc.  However, the NGS data suggests that the secorisation era members are a smaller group than those who tell us they model the present day.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Revolution Mike]

However, the NGS data suggests that the secorisation era members are a smaller group than those who tell us they model the present day.

 

I wonder if that is because people don't discriminate so much (or update their information)?

 

Cheers, Mike

[grahame]

 However, the NGS data suggests that the secorisation era members are a smaller group than those who tell us they model the present day.

 

 

It would certainly be very unfair to rely on that data - not only may it be suspect or not updated regularly as Mike mentions, but those modellers may well have a higher propensity to purchase products from such a project/offer. Even if the 'modern' era offer bombs it would be fairer to give a crack to other eras/modellers to see if they could make it work rather than saying just because one era/group failed to step up others will be the same and therefore don't get a chance.

 

G.

[grahame]

 

I take your point about the NSE coaches being "old" Farish but at least there were some.... albeit hard to get hold of now.

 

 

Not only were they the old Farish version and now difficult to get of, but they were also the wrong type of Mk2. And a Mk1 NSE option would be completely new and fresh.

 

G.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi Grahame,

 

On the face of it I agree it might seem unfair not to give other eras a crack. Unfortunately it's not quite as simple as that.

 

I can't go into too much detail, but it has taken many hours of discussion, research and negotiation to get to the point of producing the list we did. I suspect that while we may be able to find volunteers at our end to put in similar amounts of effort again, we might struggle to be taken seriously elsewhere.

 

And irrespective of that, I have to say that I think there does seem to be a general sense that modern/post steam N-gauge enthusiasts will look for reasons *not* to by buy something, rather than excuses to get it.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[grahame]

And irrespective of that, I have to say that I think there does seem to be a general sense that modern/post steam N-gauge enthusiasts will look for reasons *not* to by buy something, rather than excuses to get it.

 

 

That's a rather sweeping and scathing generalisation that could easily be applied to all N gauge modellers irrespective of their period modelling allegiances and I doubt that there is any empirical evidence to suggest that only and all post steam era modellers behave like that. 

 

I'd certainly be more than happy to co-ordinate and administer a list of potential 'sectorisation' era models and 'manage' the responses of a poll for it.

 

G.

[Revolution Ben]

That's a rather sweeping and scathing generalisation that could easily be applied to all N gauge modellers irrespective of their period modelling allegiances and I doubt that there is any empirical evidence to suggest that only and all post steam era modellers behave like that. 

 

I'd certainly be more than happy to co-ordinate and administer a list of potential 'sectorisation' era models and 'manage' the responses of a poll for it.

 

G.

 

Hi Grahame,

 

That's a very kind offer, thanks.  If the NGS Committee decides to look again at this project (almost immediately if this one is successfuly, probably some time down the line if not) then I will be sure to suggest that you be involved.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[woodenhead]

Focussing on Grahame's era, which actually does not interest me but would do others, you can see a line of potential NSE variants from which a modeller could actually build a layout,

 

Farish now have high quality Mk1 and Mk2 pressure vent stock which they didn't last time round, they also do 47/7s and the 4CEP. Dapol have a high quality 50 on the way and there plenty of dmus from both makes that could stand NSE.

 

If you knew they were coming you could in essence plan a layout

[Sithlord75]

That's a rather sweeping and scathing generalisation that could easily be applied to all N gauge modellers irrespective of their period modelling allegiances and I doubt that there is any empirical evidence to suggest that only and all post steam era modellers behave like that. 

.

What kind of empirical evidence do you need?  The Stove R (which I recall you didn't think was an inspired choice) has sold many hundreds of models - indeed, there was at least one of the original livery options of 500 examples sold out by pre-orders alone.  The Inspection Saloon has also sold well.  I am sure it would be possible to get a break down of the numbers of each livery variation to see which ones are selling and which are not.  Conversely a mere expression of interest (with no requirement to put cash on the nail - unlike the Stove, Inspection Saloon, Collet BG, Thomson BG et al) has not garnered enough support for one (requiring 350 expressions of interest - and I presume if you want more than one, it counts as more than one vote) and the total response to date, is less than 100 across all four options.  The evidence at present is those who model Big 4 through to transition are more than happy to spend money, those who model present day, are unwilling to send an email - or at least there aren't enough of them willing to send an email to get this project off the ground.

 

I agree it is a shame but what else would you have Ben do?  The challenge was that the NGS does nothing for the present modeller - they have, and the present modellers haven't responded.  Certainly it maybe different but minus a crystal ball, Ben or anyone else on the committee can only go on what the members tell them - so if the data is wrong, then that isn't Ben's fault.

[grahame]

  The Stove R (which I recall you didn't think was an inspired choice) has sold many hundreds of models - indeed, there was at least one of the original livery options of 500 examples sold out by pre-orders alone.  The Inspection Saloon has also sold well.

 

All those are completely new models not a simple re-livery of an established existing model so a completely different proposition. And of course there are no published confirmed sales figures from them as you do not know how many are still held in stock unsold by the shop. 

 

G.

[Sithlord75]

Simple enough to find out how many Stove Rs have sold - ask at the AGM (or maybe send the Hon. Sec. a letter prior to the AGM so the relevant data will be available).  As it is, based on what is known, there has been a number of runs commissioned for, yes, a new model.  The risk of a new model is much greater - as I pointed out, 2000 examples v 350 of a commission on a livery.  The 2000 was met with ease - a look back though the various Journals from the period shows this - and yet 350 re-liveried models (and therefore a much smaller risk) cannot get off the ground.  I suspect Ben is correct when he says the modeller of the current scene can find more reasons not to buy the model than the transition era one.

[Tim H]

Farish now have high quality Mk1 and Mk2 pressure vent stock which they didn't last time round, they also do 47/7s and the 4CEP. Dapol have a high quality 50 on the way and there plenty of dmus from both makes that could stand NSE.

To my knowledge, the following items in the Farish range carried NSE livery:

 

47/4 and 47/7

Class 101

Class 108

Mk1 SK, TSO, CK, FK, BSK, RMB and BG

Mk2 TSO, BSO and FK

 

*not* the 4-CEP, since the Farish model represents them in as-built condition rather than as refurbished.

 

All are new Blue Riband rather than old Poole models.

[woodenhead]

Add to that the Dapol models: class 121 and 73 plus the forthcoming 33 and 50 and you could do a nice west of non electrified southern mainline.

[Bomag]

To my knowledge, the following items in the Farish range carried NSE livery:

 

47/4 and 47/7

Class 101

Class 108

Mk1 SK, TSO, CK, FK, BSK, RMB and BG

Mk2 TSO, BSO and FK

 

*not* the 4-CEP, since the Farish model represents them in as-built condition rather than as refurbished.

 

All are new Blue Riband rather than old Poole models.

 

I must have been asleep as I managed to miss the 108 (in any livery) and the Mk1s.

 

The only Mk2 ones I have seen are TSO and FK. The former at least were produced as inset and fully printed versions.

[Sithlord75]

Makes you wonder why Bachmann hasn't issued them in NSE then doesn't it?

[woodenhead]

But must point out I model two eras, late 50s/early 60/s or BR blue and I am sticking to those. My holiday destination layout receives trains from all points and will happily share Bulleids, Maunsells, Collett, Stanier and BR stock.

 

Reminds me, must join NGS, I want a certain full brake and I missed out on the Stove.

[woodenhead]

I must have been asleep as I managed to miss the 108 (in any livery) and the Mk1s.

 

The only Mk2 ones I have seen are TSO and FK. The former at least were produced as inset and fully printed versions.

He means its time for a rerelease of the livery rather than they've been done, all previous NSE was done under Poole era models

[woodenhead]

Makes you wonder why Bachmann hasn't issued them in NSE then doesn't it?

Political censorship, rewriting history so that NSE never existed, a joined up railway for London, that would never work.

[Bomag]

Makes you wonder why Bachmann hasn't issued them in NSE then doesn't it?

 

Given some of the odd OO coaches they have done in NSE I am not surprised some of them have not sold. From the PDF of older products there have been two runs of Mk1 BSK, SK and TSO, so these sold quick enough to warrant a second batch. Bachmann/GF don't always make sense, the did a second batch of Virgin FOs as these had the highest sales in the previous 12 months, ignoring that fact that TSO has sold out 18 months before.

 

To fly the flag for NSE then I would look to get 14 Mk2Z/Mk2A (9TSO,1FK, 2BFK/1BSO - same body shell) to cover an Exeter set and a Kings Lynn set and a similar number of Mk1s for a Cobbler set and an Oxford set. 

 

In response to BenAs post 59 it seams that the choice was decided by committee, not always a good barometer of what may sell. A specific web page may be a bit of work, but there it is not even 'news update' entry on the N gauge site.

 

Finally can somebody confirm what the e-mail address is and do you get a response saying you e-mail has been received? I haven't had anything back from my e-mail?

[Sithlord75]

 In response to BenAs post 59 it seams that the choice was decided by committee, not always a good barometer of what may sell. A specific web page may be a bit of work, but there it is not even 'news update' entry on the N gauge site.

 

I'm not sure the choice was decided by committee - just the committee signed off on it. Ben will confirm or clarify but I understood he asked for details of suitable models which could be used along with photos of specific vehicles as subjects. Once he had some the proposed four were put up as options. Maybe there were better options but I thought the process was fair, objective and transparent. There was the usual wish listing that goes on, along with the nice but doesn't suit me. Generally the response seems to be picking something from a quarter of a century back would have been better - which forgets that the original spec was the model had to be suitable for present day.

[roundhouse]

Given some of the odd OO coaches they have done in NSE I am not surprised some of them have not sold. From the PDF of older products there have been two runs of Mk1 BSK, SK and TSO, so these sold quick enough to warrant a second batch. Bachmann/GF don't always make sense, the did a second batch of Virgin FOs as these had the highest sales in the previous 12 months, ignoring that fact that TSO has sold out 18 months before.

 

To fly the flag for NSE then I would look to get 14 Mk2Z/Mk2A (9TSO,1FK, 2BFK/1BSO - same body shell) to cover an Exeter set and a Kings Lynn set and a similar number of Mk1s for a Cobbler set and an Oxford set. 

 

In response to BenAs post 59 it seams that the choice was decided by committee, not always a good barometer of what may sell. A specific web page may be a bit of work, but there it is not even 'news update' entry on the N gauge site.

 

Finally can somebody confirm what the e-mail address is and do you get a response saying you e-mail has been received? I haven't had anything back from my e-mail?

I emailed the one on the shop contact page and did get an automated reply.

 

Ian

[Adam1701D]

I have tackled Bachmann about the lack of RTR Network SouthEast in their range and been told that there is insufficient demand to justify a full production run.

 

It seems that the Sectorisation-era is a poorer seller than BR Green / Rail Blue or Post-Privatisation at present but it could change in future, as ages and demographics of modellers change. A lot of people like to model the railways of their youth, so as people get older, then sectorisation may fall into that bracket.

 

That said, NSE has always been the most popular livery choice for Electra's customers, though I doubt if my sales are anywhere significant enough to dent the RTR big boys in any way. I see myself as a niche supplier, providing the more esoteric items and trying to plug any obvious gaps.

 

BTW, I would love to get hold of some of those lovely new Mk2A coaches in NSE.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

Adam - thanks for your perspective.  V helpful.  I suspect that the market for NSE is growing, but I am not sure yet it would support a run of 500 models of which 350 need to sell immediately to recoup.  We could make the threshold less than 350, but then the price of the individual model would have to go up and get nearer to RRP.

 

As far as the choices go, numerous models were suggested and discussed on the various N Gauge message groups and forums before these four were settled on.  There was much tangential chat about new tooling or trackwork but in essence the selected models had to be (1) suitable for those modellers depicting the last decade and (2) reliveries of existing but "new standard" models.

 

All of the vehicles on offer can be justified pretty much anywhere geographically, run with interesting traction (including heritage or preserved steam) and complement existing Farish or Dapol products.  I take the point that not everyone will want all of them, but they each make for more realistic and varied trains.  For those modelling the present-day (ie not sectorisation) I can't see how at least one would not be suitable and desirable.

 

It may be in the future that we look at sectorisation but NGS sales show consistently that the fastest selling models are always those depicting the BR transition era, with modern and big 4 coming second. For example, we already have over a thousand pre-orders for transition era Thompson bogie brake vans, though this does cover two liveries. BR Blue is increasing steadily (while big 4 may be slightly in decline, though data is not conclusive) however the sectorisation era is always the slowest. Our sectorisation era snowploughs, cargowaggons and inspection saloons have been the slowest sellers. Even sectorisation era kits don't do as well - the poorest selling of the autoballaster variants is the original Tiphook KPAs, which represent the wagons' introduction in 1988 to conversion in 1996.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

(Edited to remove unwanted smiley face!)

[Steven B]

Being firmly in the sectorisation camp I'm disapointed that the suggestions for current era re-liveries has been poorly supported as it reduces the chances of somethng stripey from the 1980s being commissioned.

 

That said, I can't see any way in which the NGS would commission common NSE, Provincial or RR liveried coaches. Most modellers would want a matching rake and hence you'd need several different models, produced in different numbers (more second opens than brakes for example). If there was enough demand for NSE/RR then it's something Farish or Dapol would have already considered.

 

Realistically any sector era model commissioned by the NGS is like to be something that never existed in large numbers - SLOA Pullman liveried BCK or a NSE BG for example. Anyone dreaming of a complete rake of NSE or RR coaches from the NGS is likely to be destined to be disapointed....

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[54Strat]

I emailed the one on the shop contact page and did get an automated reply.

 

Ian

 

Funny, I mailed then a day or so back and got no reply.

 

Paul