Ozexpatriate Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 And all the while these folks are in China you will need extra resource back in the UK to cover their activities. I'd have thought they'd hire consultants for most of the positions you outlined. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 14, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2014 £220,000 is probably the cost incurred by Hornby in trying to purchase Sanda Kan. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted January 14, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'd have thought they'd hire consultants for most of the positions you outlined. Never known it happen in any DD I have been involved in. A consultant does not know the industry like you do (normally). he does not know which weaknesses might be important or unimportant to you (of course he can learn - say 2 months extra work in each discipline). He does not know what strengths would fill a major gap in your operations. He will charge you at least twice what it costs you yourself. (You should think £1000 per day x 10 people x 28days plus all expenses). In the end they will not have any accountability for the advice given. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 14, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2014 There is of course the small matter of how DD is conducted in China. I've never conducted DD myself, but recall the rigid requirements for a Data Room and its control from when we were privatising the BRIS companies. Given how Hornby's production plans seem riven by Chinese cultural issues, it seems likely that the way a company is sold there is also a bit different? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Andy, I'd just observe that your outline of the limitations of consultants is generally true in whatever capacity or task they are engaged in. It doesn't stop companies wasting money on them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I would assume there are many of that are not tightwads. When I see what is available in the market place I refuse to believe that Hornby have to charge so much. I work hard for my money and I am not a fool and will not be treated as such! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 * £221,000 "abortive due diligence costs" I witnessed some of the vast amount of work that went on when a company I worked for was taken over. A HUGE amount of company paperwork laid out for competitors to read, secure rooms, senior company executives on call to answer any questions, etc..... and ALL with no restrictions that weren't entirely open and reasonable ! A vast amount of effort was spent by our company, the competing interested parties and their consultant lawyers, accountants and experts. It must have cost a vast amount of money, and the successful company ended up paying too much and suffering for it for at least 6 or 7 years with awful annual reports. Not an easy matter. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2014 Never known it happen in any DD I have been involved in. A consultant does not know the industry like you do (normally). he does not know which weaknesses might be important or unimportant to you (of course he can learn - say 2 months extra work in each discipline). He does not know what strengths would fill a major gap in your operations. He will charge you at least twice what it costs you yourself. (You should think £1000 per day x 10 people x 28days plus all expenses). In the end they will not have any accountability for the advice given. I've seen it happen in two DD cases although in both of them the consultants were either bank employees or legal people and had been brought in by the bidders to add some 'expertise' to their DD team. However having sat through one session with them (where I acted to advise them if the answers they were being given were accurate or made sense but was strictly barred from telling them what questions to ask) I would agree entirely with several of the points you listed. But having worked as a consultant I would of course point out that what you have said is totally incorrect in those circumstances where the consultant was brought in to undertake specialised work or carry out a specific task for which no suitable expertise existed in the commissioning concern - and I wish I'd been paid that much (but it was some years ago). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I am pleased to see that Hornby will be making a BR SR MK1 Corridor Composite, Second and Brake Second with the coach crests. Earlier in this topic someone had asked Hornby to omit them. The coach crests were on the BR SR MK1 coaches used on the Royal Wessex from Waterloo to Weymouth with a portion of two coaches going to Swanage. Most of the BR MK1 green coaches on the Swanage Railway also have coach crests. If anyone wants BR SR MK1 coaches without crests they can always buy Bachmann models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I'm not at all sure it matters what coaches carry in preservation if people are mostly modelling the steam-era. There are plenty of coach crests on blood & custard coaches on heritage and Hornby sites, all historically innacurate. As regards models, removal of a crest will damage the varnish. Adding a crest does not harm paint finish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2014 Are the bogies on that coach original? Will Hornby be putting B4 bogies on their Mark 1 buffet cars? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I'm not at all sure it matters what coaches carry in preservation if people are mostly modelling the steam-era. There are plenty of coach crests on blood & custard coaches on heritage and Hornby sites, all historically innacurate. As regards models, removal of a crest will damage the varnish. Adding a crest does not harm paint finish. As Bachmann is already producing BR MK1 coaches in BR SR green without coach crests would it not be easier to buy a Bachmann coach rather than to remove the crest from a Hornby coach? To me it does not make sense for two firms to duplicate the same coach. Adding a crest is not as easy as it sounds. Before applying the transfer you need to paint a coat of gloss varnish first and then try and match the rest of the coach with matt varnish to seal the transfer. All this is unnecessary when Hornby are planning to produce the coach with crests and probably will do so despite the comments that have been sent to the firm. With the crests they will be making historically correct coaches. If you are modelling a railway in the steam era like I am modelling the Swanage Railway you can run both preserved trains and steam era trains. The Swanage Railway is historically accurate in putting coach crests on two of its BR SR MK1s to represent the Swanage portion of the Royal Wessex although it may be a over enthusiastic in putting them on most of the green coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Are the bogies on that coach original? Will Hornby be putting B4 bogies on their Mark 1 buffet cars? I don't think that that type of buffet car was ever used on the BR SR and painted green either which is probably why Bachmann did not make a model of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 My model of a Royal Wessex coach based on a Tri-ang Hornby BR MK1 coach with coach crests at Corfe Viaduct. If the new illuminated coaches are easy to dismantle they will look better if the modeller put in passengers and carriage prints or replaced the interior with a Peco interior designed for the Kitmaster coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 16, 2014 I am pleased to see that Hornby will be making a BR SR MK1 Corridor Composite, Second and Brake Second with the coach crests. Earlier in this topic someone had asked Hornby to omit them. The coach crests were on the BR SR MK1 coaches used on the Royal Wessex from Waterloo to Weymouth with a portion of two coaches going to Swanage. Most of the BR MK1 green coaches on the Swanage Railway also have coach crests. If anyone wants BR SR MK1 coaches without crests they can always buy Bachmann models. That was probably me. The point I was making to Hornby was that they were producing coaches that would make up standard 3 and 4 coach sets (BSK-CK-BSK and BSK-CK-SK-BSK) and these sets did not have crests. And as coachman says, it's easier to fit them and remove them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 That was probably me. The point I was making to Hornby was that they were producing coaches that would make up standard 3 and 4 coach sets (BSK-CK-BSK and BSK-CK-SK-BSK) and these sets did not have crests. And as coachman says, it's easier to fit them and remove them. Thank you. The coaches would also be suitable for the Weymouth portion (BSK-SK- 2 CK-BSK) and the Swanage portion (CK-BSK) of the Royal Wessex. It will be interesting to see if the coach numbers match. Hornby have been good at getting the correct livery. I wonder if the Hornby BR SR MK1s will look more like the correct shade of green than the Bachmann models do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I have withdrawn this post as Hornby are going to produce two versions of the BR green BSK brake second corridor with lights (R43609 and R43609A). I am sorry for the error. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Looking at the train formations I expect that Hornby will run into supply problems with the BR SR MK1s. Hornby will probably produce 1,000 of each coach. To make a 5 coach rake for the Weymouth portion of the Royal Wessex and other similar trains people will order two BSKs, two CKs and one SK. Hornby will then run out of BSKs and CKs and following past experience it may take Hornby another two years to produce a second run. Would it not be more sensible for Hornby to produce 2 BR SR green Brake Corridor Seconds numbered R4609 and R4609A and to do the same with the Corridor Composite? More sensible indeed, but more likely, sadly I fear not. There has been very little 'joined up' thinking in terms of coaching stock even amongst the fine Maunsell Southern liveried items. If they did manage to produce enough not to leave everyone searching desperately for BSKs and CKs I would be really convinced that they were getting their house in order! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2014 Hornby is producing two versions of the BSK (R4609 and R4609A) in the first batch, which adds weight to my comment about producing the coaches needed to make up standard 3 and 4 car coach sets. The coach that may prove easier to find will in my view be the SK, since some people will only want to create a 3-coach set BSK-CK-BSK. But clearly Hornby HAS thought people forming coach sets when announcing these models. Of course if a set number is added to the brake ends of the BSK's that would be even better (for me at least) and indeed might encourage sales of all four coaches being produced, provided those crests disappear. If they don't, I will be cancelling my pre-order. By producing all four vehicles at the same time, this is a wonderful opportunity for Hornby to produce a prototypical SR coach set with correct vehicle numbers, livery and lettering, which worked well for their Maunsells and is something that Bachmann simply doesn't do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Hornby is producing two versions of the BSK (R4609 and R4609A) in the first batch, which adds weight to my comment about producing the coaches needed to make up standard 3 and 4 car coach sets. The coach that may prove easier to find will in my view be the SK, since some people will only want to create a 3-coach set BSK-CK-BSK. But clearly Hornby HAS thought people forming coach sets when announcing these models. Of course if a set number is added to the brake ends of the BSK's that would be even better (for me at least) and indeed might encourage sales of all four coaches being produced, provided those crests disappear. If they don't, I will be cancelling my pre-order. By producing all four vehicles at the same time, this is a wonderful opportunity for Hornby to produce a prototypical SR coach set with correct vehicle numbers, livery and lettering, which worked well for their Maunsells and is something that Bachmann simply doesn't do. Thank you. R4609A BR Mk1 Brake Corridor Second was not listed on page 16 of the Hornby Special Supplement. I have checked with Hattons and I see that Hornby is producing two versions of the BSK (R4609 and R4609A). I commend Hornby for doing this. I am sorry for the previous error. Graham Farish recently only produced one Bulleid semi-open brake and there was a shortage of these as people were buying two brakes and one of each of the other coaches. I think it is wrong to pressurise Hornby to alter their green coaches when the coaches with crests are authentic. If anyone wants MK1 green coaches they can buy them from Bachmann or wait until Hornby produce Mk1 green coaches without a coach crest. Hornby and their predecessors have produced batches of BR green coaches in the past with or without crests. When Hornby bring out the Mk1 green coaches with coach crests and the Maunsell pull-push coaches in a reasonable quantity it will give people modelling the Swanage Railway to run the Swanage portion of the Royal Wessex in the Swanage sandwich formation with the Maunsell pull-push coaches in the front, the M7 in the middle and the 2 green Mk1s at the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2014 Thank you. R4609A BR Mk1 Brake Corridor Second was not listed on page 16 of the Hornby Special Supplement. I have checked with Hattons and I see that Hornby is producing two versions of the BSK (R4609 and R4609A). I commend Hornby for doing this. I am sorry for the previous error. Graham Farish recently only produced one Bulleid semi-open brake and there was a shortage of these as people were buying two brakes and one of each of the other coaches. I think it is wrong to pressurise Hornby to alter their green coaches when the coaches with crests are authentic. If Hornby added a Royal Wessex set number to the brakes I think it would be equally wrong to ask them to change the number because you are not modelling the area in which it ran. If anyone wants MK1 green coaches they can buy them from Bachmann or wait until Hornby produce Mk1 green coaches without a coach crest. Hornby and their predecessors have produced batches of BR green coaches in the past with or without crests. When Hornby bring out the Mk1 green coaches with coach crests and the Maunsell pull-push coaches in a reasonable quantity it will give people modelling the Swanage Railway to run the Swanage portion of the Royal Wessex in the Swanage sandwich formation with the Maunsell pull-push coaches in the front, the M7 in the middle and the 2 green Mk1s at the end. Just because crested green Mk1s would suit you and the probably relatively few (compared to the SR as a whole) people modeling the Swanage Railway, doesn't make it the right thing for Hornby to do. The standard 3 and 4 coach sets were just that - standard - and a set could appear on a branch line one day and a main line express the next. If you ask me, that sort of widespread use is more likely to sell well and I am sure that's what Hornby wants - a sell out. On the other hand, BSKs with set and individual coach numbers for a Royal Wessex set would rather limit their appeal and also create issues if not all the other coaches in the set were available, potentially reducing overall sales. And these coaches are a bit of a gamble for Hornby - the addition of lights and the extra detail take the price well above the Railroad versions and the more detailed Bachmann ones, so Hornby should be looking for maximum flexibility in terms of prototype use. Coaches that headed up and down the Swanage branch every day don't fit that bill. Bachmann produce a far greater range of Mk1 coaches, so wouldn't it be much easier to create a Royal Wessex set going down that route - after all there's nothing to stop you asking Bachmann to put crests on its next batch of green Mk1s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2014 I've always taken the view that the Railroad Mk1s are really intended for newcomers to the hobby and improving Hornby's train pack offerings. The Bachmann ones have been around so long now that most established modellers should already have nearly all the Mk1s they'll ever need. I remember buying another one almost every payday for a while some years back and must have a couple of dozen in various liveries! I'd not want to mix the two makes within the same train anyway. As Brushman says, it's easier to add the transfers (the body is shiny enough not to cause trouble) than remove them and the majority of buyers won't (only) want to model the Royal Wessex. I do want another 3-coach set but, as I've more than enough Mk1s and nearly enough Maunsells, l'm waiting for a Bachmann Birdcage set in Vermilion! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 The Hornby green Mk1s are not in the Railroad range and have not been manufactured yet so we don't know how they will compare with the Bachmann coaches. It is likely that the livery will look more like BR SR coach green than the Bachmann MK1s. Bachmann may have painted their models in the correct colour but a colour on a small area looks darker than on a large area. I agree that most established late crest BR SR modellers will have more than enough green MK1s as shown by the recent poor sales of green Bachmann MK1 coaches so Hornby may not have made a good business decision in making some more. The coaches with crests were used on the Royal Wessex until 1963 when they became loose coaches. The Royal Wessex coaches did not have set numbers so Hornby is correct in excluding them. The Royal Wessex went from Waterloo to Bournemouth West and then on to Swanage and Weymouth so the model coaches would appeal to anyone modelling part of that area and beyond after 1963. People modelling the Swanage Railway would also use them. I attach a picture of a BR SR coach with a crest on the Swanage Railway. Since the coaches have been marketed with coach crests and are likely to appear in the 2014 catalogue with coach crests people who have pre-ordered the coaches will be disappointed if they find the coaches do not have any crests. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2014 The Hornby green Mk1s are not in the Railroad range and have not been manufactured yet so we don't know how they will compare with the Bachmann coaches. It is likely that the livery will look more like BR SR coach green than the Bachmann MK1s. Bachmann may have painted their models in the correct colour but a colour on a small area looks darker than on a large area. I agree that most established late crest BR SR modellers will have more than enough green MK1s as shown by the recent poor sales of green Bachmann MK1 coaches so Hornby may not have made a good business decision in making some more. The coaches with crests were used on the Royal Wessex until 1963 when they became loose coaches. The Royal Wessex coaches did not have set numbers so Hornby is correct in excluding them. The Royal Wessex went from Waterloo to Bournemouth West and then on to Swanage and Weymouth so the model coaches would appeal to anyone modelling part of that area and beyond after 1963. People modelling the Swanage Railway would also use them. I attach a picture of a BR SR coach with a crest on the Swanage Railway004.JPG. Since the coaches have been marketed with coach crests and are likely to appear in the 2014 catalogue with coach crests people who have pre-ordered the coaches will be disappointed if they find the coaches do not have any crests. I hope Hornby don't put the crest where it is on that one - it should be under the window on the other side of the door! However, I like the faded colour - my Bachmann Mk1s are in the older (too light) green and aren't a million miles from that. I was under the impression that there will be some green ones without lighting (or crests) in the Railroad range and assumed the lit ones would be an upgrade of the same with better wheels, the lighting and (maybe) a superior paint job (with or without the badge). As I don't go in for lighting I wouldn't pay the extra for something I don't want. I agree with you that the Bachmann green is probably very close for an ex-works full size coach but looks way too dark on the models. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2014 The Bachmann ones have been around so long now that most established modellers should already have nearly all the Mk1s they'll ever need. John I agree with you that the Bachmann green is probably very close for an ex-works full size coach but looks way too dark on the models. John I probably do have all the Maroon and Blue/Grey Bachmann Mk1s I need but perhaps I am alone but I refuse to buy the SR green ones I need until they appear in a more accurate colour representation as a model. I have high hopes for the green Hornby will use as it would be odd if it doesn't match their Maunsells. But they mustn't have the crests or I'll just have to wait even longer... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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