2014 Hornby Announcements

[southernelectric]

I would take this to mean that Hornby have replaced the 'traditional' loco & tender coupling (the one where the tender peg fits onto a hole sticking out of the loco) seen on the initial 'super detailed' issues of the WC / BB locos with a plug and socket electrical connector plus solid tiebar screwed into both the loco & tender. The plug and socket has itself been around for a number of years now but many people found it fiddlely to manipulate and a pain to disconnect when the tender was separated from the loco. Rather than get rid of this feature Hornby changed the tiebar design so that the loco and tender would be permanently coupled (like Bachmann had started doing) solving the issue and meaning if you do want to separate the loco and tender a small screwdriver will be required to disconnect one end of the tiebar. As to whether the loco will run without the tender, that rather depends on what Hornby have done with the wiring and decoder position. If all the 'plug and socket' is doing is carrying the feed from the tender pickups to the loco (like the little bits of metal on the old design did) then yes the loco will run on its own. If the wiring has been altered though so the feed from the loco pickups has been routed with the tender first before coming back to the motor in the loco, then the loco won't run without the tender attached. This process is not new however as for the past couple of years plenty of other 'super detailed' locos are getting this revision, usually because it makes it easier to move the decoder into the tender and provide a sound fitted option in future.

 

Thanks for this. My most recent Hornby 'super-detailed' steam loco purchase is the 2011 issue R3081 NRM limited edition Flying Scotsman. That has the plug and socket connection to the tender as you describe, and as alluded to in my post. The loco doesn't run without the connection (the tender is also where the DCC decoder would go) but although there is a tiebar as well it doesn't require a screwdriver to disconnect the tender from the loco. So perhaps they have made this change in the last couple of year? My older Clan Line model (from the Hornby VSOE set) has an older type of connection to the tender, i.e. no fiddly plug and socket electrical connector.

 

As for Bachmann, I'm pretty sure my Evening Star (although I'd need to check as it's stored away at present) has a note on the the packaging to say that the loco and tender are permanently coupled and should be removed as such...but in fact they are not and the loco and tender have to be removed separately. My Bachmann Evening Star is the most recent one they made so maybe they started doing that on some models and then stopped?

[southernelectric]

 

Well...kind of...

 

There's been a lot of mention in this thread of Merchant Navy, Battle of Britain and West Country class locos....to me they look very similar, i.e. the unrebuilts of each class look alike to me, as do the rebuilt versions.

 

Is there a useful resource somewhere I can read that will explain all of this in simple terms, for a (mostly) D&E fan like myself, and what the differences are between MN, BoB and WC classes? 

 

Also, I get very confused with the term 'Pacific. Now, when I see this word used to describe steam locos, I think of Gresley A4s but it seems to apply to other locos...and is causing my head to hurt! So any explanation offered on that would be greatly appreciated too!

[phil-b259]

Thanks for this. My most recent Hornby 'super-detailed' steam loco purchase is the 2011 issue R3081 NRM limited edition Flying Scotsman. That has the plug and socket connection to the tender as you describe, and as alluded to in my post. The loco doesn't run without the connection (the tender is also where the DCC decoder would go) but although there is a tiebar as well it doesn't require a screwdriver to disconnect the tender from the loco. So perhaps they have made this change in the last couple of year? My older Clan Line model (from the Hornby VSOE set) has an older type of connection to the tender, i.e. no fiddly plug and socket electrical connector.

 

When it was first introduced there were lots of complaints because the floppy easily detaching tiebar meant people could inadvertently end up with the wiring being the thing holding the two together and that is only asking for one of the wires to get wrenched from the socket (particularly when trying to remove the loco from a layout or in the process of trying to get the plug out so they can be put back in their original box). Subsequently Hornby went with the Bachmann idea of actually fixing the tiebar both ends and designing the packaging so as to allow the loco and tender to be coupled together during assembly in China.

[melmerby]

 

Well...kind of...

 

There's been a lot of mention in this thread of Merchant Navy, Battle of Britain and West Country class locos....to me they look very similar, i.e. the unrebuilts of each class look alike to me, as do the rebuilt versions.

 

Is there a useful resource somewhere I can read that will explain all of this in simple terms, for a (mostly) D&E fan like myself, and what the differences are between MN, BoB and WC classes? 

 

Also, I get very confused with the term 'Pacific. Now, when I see this word used to describe steam locos, I think of Gresley A4s but it seems to apply to other locos...and is causing my head to hurt! So any explanation offered on that would be greatly appreciated too!

 

The West Country/Battle of Britain (same class!) were a lighter/lower power version of the Merchant Navy Class

 

Try these for a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Merchant_Navy_Class

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_West_Country_and_Battle_of_Britain_Classes

 

And what is a pacific:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[phil-b259]

 

Well...kind of...

 

There's been a lot of mention in this thread of Merchant Navy, Battle of Britain and West Country class locos....to me they look very similar, i.e. the unrebuilts of each class look alike to me, as do the rebuilt versions.

 

Thats because they are the same class of locos (the BBs & WCs that is) - just with a different set of names. A WC is mechanically identical (as far as Bulleid Pacifics can be ;-) ) to a BB. The story is that when first built, many of the new WC engines, after naming found themselves working in Kent rather than the South Western routes. A decision was therefore taken to suspend the WC naming scheme and give the engines working in Kent names associated with the area. With the Battle of Britian being fought in the skies above Kent, it seamed a natural choice to use as a basis when it came to allocating names for the SE section engines. Subsequently as more locos rolled off the production lines, the WC naming scheme began again for locos heading westward - and those WC working in Kent migrated the same way as further engines were delivered and given BB names.

 

Therefore when rebuilding occurred, a rebuilt WC was mechanically identical to a rebuilt BB, however the number of each class rebuilt was not the same. Although exactly half the entire fleet (110 in total) was subjected to rebuilding, more WC named locos got the treatment than BBs, which is a bit odd in some way because the rebuilds were bared from certain lines in Devon & Cornwall meaning that such lines saw locally named rebuilt WC locos replaced by original BBs

[Brit70053]

 

what the differences are between MN, BoB and WC classes? 

 

Also, I get very confused with the term 'Pacific. Now, when I see this word used to describe steam locos, I think of Gresley A4s but it seems to apply to other locos...and is causing my head to hurt! So any explanation offered on that would be greatly appreciated too!

Hi Southernelectric,

 

To take these two questions in reverse order, 'Pacific' refers to the wheel arrangement of the locomotive in question, as follows: Four unpowered carrying wheels at the front mounted on a 'bogie', then Six coupled driven wheels followed up at the rear by two further unpowered carrying wheels. In simple terms  a Pacific is a 4 - 6 - 2 locomotive, the tender and its wheel arrangement are not defined.

 

There are not much more than detail differences between a BOB or West Country class locomotive, but these classes both exist(ed) in two different guises, originally to Mr Bulleid's design with air smoothed casing which earned them the nick name of 'Spam Cans', then as 'rebuilt' to a more conventional appearance under the early BR regime.

These (two?) classes of locomotives are sometimes referred to as Bulleid 'Light' Pacifics.

 

The Merchant Navy Class Pacifics also appeared in original Air Smoothed  and rebuilt forms and while both were very similar in appearance to the 'light' pacifics, the Merchant Navies were larger , heavier and by degree more powerful.

 

I hope this eases your confusion, if only a little.

 

Regards,

 

             John

[lyndonsdad1]

Don't mention 21C!

[brushman47544]

Really? With an asking price of £157? From the initial announcement:

 

R3249 - BR (Early) Battle of Britain Class, “Manston”.

Locomotive DCC Ready . 5 pole skew wound motor. Extensive exterior and cab detail. Sprung buffers. Locomotive and tender permanently linked. Decoder located in tender.RRP £157.50 (Estimate. TBC) Q: 750

 

I would imagine this is going to be a "full fat" super-detailed model, given the asking price and description! Does the magazine give any more details of the model, or the price that the model will be available for?

I appreciate what the description says but the pictures look like they are of a less detailed model - for example the three lamp/disc holders above the buffer beam are missing. There could be changes to the tooling and still meet the description so we will have to wait and see, although the pricing does indeed suggest a full fat model. 750 are being produced, at a price of £125.00 to Club members and £157.49 to non-members.

[Dunsignalling]

Don't mention 21C!

Oh, go on..........

[Oldddudders]

Don't mention 21C!

All Whyte.

[The Stationmaster]

Reading the info in one of the February mags - and checking it on Hornby's website - it appears there are some fictious Shunters Trucks lined up for 2014 with one labelled 'Laira Truro Goods and another labelled 'Hallams Marsh' (BR numbered but - again - incorrect livery colour) and there is also one for 'Cheltenham' which might well be accurate.  I can't make head or tail of 'Laira Truro Goods' because it ought to be one place or the other and I presume that 'Hallams Marsh' might be a corruption of Hallen Marsh.

[phil-b259]

Reading the info in one of the February mags - and checking it on Hornby's website - it appears there are some fictious Shunters Trucks lined up for 2014 with one labelled 'Laira Truro Goods and another labelled 'Hallams Marsh' (BR numbered but - again - incorrect livery colour) and there is also one for 'Cheltenham' which might well be accurate.  I can't make head or tail of 'Laira Truro Goods' because it ought to be one place or the other and I presume that 'Hallams Marsh' might be a corruption of Hallen Marsh.

 

Have you alerted Hornby to the fact? They responded pretty quickly to the numbering issues with their LSWR 700 class

[Mike Storey]

I could not agree more.   I’ll use the 4VEP as an example.  Even with the errors on the cab ends, and the solid first class partition, it is still far superior than I could accomplish.  At normal viewing angle and distance on my layout, it looks like a VEP, and I can’t see the solid partitions.  With a fulltime job, and two young kids (two under 2) I don’t have time to build / bash one into existence, let alone a paint job to the standard that would look acceptable alongside the rest of my stock.  Is it perfect?  No.  Is it good enough to sit alongside my Bachmann 4CEP and run in regular service? Sure is!  I’m even down with my supplier to get the Blue / Grey version when they come out.

 

As a side note… the best means to resolve the reported poor running qualities is to remove the couplers from the cab ends, and with a DCC decoder, adjust some of the settings.  While still rather gutless, it now runs as smooth as my Bachmann EMU’s.

 

I agree entirely with what you say, although, notwithstanding the promised interior improvements to the B/G version, the cab ends will remain disappointing. But as you say, a very welcome and acceptable addition to the fold - I am very glad they are producing a blue/grey one as painting a kit version would be a nightmare.

 

However, your changes to the CV's are very interesting - in case I have missed them elsewhere, could you possibly share with us the revised settings you used and what effect they give please? (I tried messing about with these,mainly acceleration and deceleration curves, but did not see much improvement). many thanks.

[mow]

I would be worried if Hornby announced that they were going to model LMS beer wagons. 

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/7-fops/fo-grain.htm

[tomparryharry]

Reading the info in one of the February mags - and checking it on Hornby's website - it appears there are some fictious Shunters Trucks lined up for 2014 with one labelled 'Laira Truro Goods and another labelled 'Hallams Marsh' (BR numbered but - again - incorrect livery colour) and there is also one for 'Cheltenham' which might well be accurate.  I can't make head or tail of 'Laira Truro Goods' because it ought to be one place or the other and I presume that 'Hallams Marsh' might be a corruption of Hallen Marsh.

Better be quick with these ones.... No brake handle!!!!

 

I expect Hornby to deliberately 'fudge' Great Western stuff. They know full well we'll rise to it, and there is definitely no such thing as bad publicity.

 

Best off ignoring Hornby for GW stuff: If you want quality & accuracy, best look elsewhere.

 

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

Have you alerted Hornby to the fact? They responded pretty quickly to the numbering issues with their LSWR 700 class

 

I will do on Monday Phil - when SK should be at his desk.

[southernelectric]

Oh, go on..........

 

So just what is 21C? 

[edcayton]

if you need to ask you can't afford it.

 

Ed

[phil-b259]

So just what is 21C? 

 

Another way of describing the 4-6-2 wheel arrangement fitted to 'pacific' type locos.

 

The method of describing a loco based on the number of wheel groups i.e. leading, driving then carrying wheels is called Whyte notation and is the system the British adopted although I think adding names to particular wheel arrangements - i.e. a 4-6-2 being a 'pacific', a 4-4-2 being  an Atlantic, a 2-6-0 being a Mogal, etc was an American invention that spread over here quite early on.

 

In mainland Europe however an alternative interpretation found favour which became the UIC classification system. Under this setup you count axles not wheels, and the driving axles are given letters not numbers. Thus 21C describes a loco with two leading axles, 1 trailing axle and 3 powered axles.

 

While acting as Nigel Gresley's assistant on the LNER, Bulleid spent extended periods in Europe (on company business - including extended testing of a P2 on service trains and the loco test plant the French had built which inspired the later post war Rugby installation). When Bulleid came to the Southern in 1938 he took the opportunity to number his new Pacific's in the UIC style (the word style is deliberate - a pacific loco is actually a 2′C1′ under the UIC system).

 

Upon nationalisation BR did away with Bulleid's numbering scheme and all his locos got conventional five figure numbers instead however...

 

When BR decided to classify its diesel and electric fleet, it decided to go with the UIC system from the outset as the Whyte system doesn't really work effectively when it comes to describing such things as powered boogies

 

The UIC system :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC_classification

The Whyte system :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation

[sandwich station]

I wasn't aware of R2260, so you may be right. But presumably that was a full fat version whereas both new images look like they are of a more basic tooling than recent models.

 

R2260 Manston from about 10 years ago.

 

 

 

[38class]

You have a point if looking at it from the general public and trainset angle, and of course the original Merchant Navy's did have a presence unlike the characterless quasi-BR standard rebuilds. I would guess the on-going ageing population has little to do with anything though. Youngsters are continuing to buy steam outline models, in fact the endangered species might turn out to be first generation diesels.

The ageing population reference is  around eyesight.I am finding 'O' gauge models more interesting and easier to appreciate now than the 'smaller gauges,( I am only 59!!), but have been an enthusiast of 'OO' for 30 years.I applaud Hornby for bringing out an eye catching model in the P2. My family find colourful, large locomotives( authentically portrayed) as something eye catching. The current preservation and heritage scene is all about exhibits being presented in an appealing way, demonstrating a variety of liveries carried,otherwise if they were 'truly authentic' in representing their 'time', they would be in filthy black.I hope Golden Age get their 'OO' gauge Merchants out soon, as with the variety of colours and appearances, it will give the public a taste of what a prestigious locomotives the original Merchants were.

[edcayton]

Another way of describing the 4-6-2 wheel arrangement fitted to 'pacific' type locos.

 

The method of describing a loco based on the number of wheel groups i.e. leading, driving then carrying wheels is called Whyte notation and is the system the British adopted although I think adding names to particular wheel arrangements - i.e. a 4-6-2 being a 'pacific', a 4-4-2 being  an Atlantic, a 2-6-0 being a Mogal, etc was an American invention that spread over here quite early on.

 

In mainland Europe however an alternative interpretation found favour which became the UIC classification system. Under this setup you count axles not wheels, and the driving axles are given letters not numbers. Thus 21C describes a loco with two leading axles, 1 trailing axle and 3 powered axles.

 

While acting as Nigel Gresley's assistant on the LNER, Bulleid spent extended periods in Europe (on company business - including extended testing of a P2 on service trains and the loco test plant the French had built which inspired the later post war Rugby installation). When Bulleid came to the Southern in 1938 he took the opportunity to number his new Pacific's in the UIC style (the word style is deliberate - a pacific loco is actually a 2′C1′ under the UIC system).

 

Upon nationalisation BR did away with Bulleid's numbering scheme and all his locos got conventional five figure numbers instead however...

 

When BR decided to classify its diesel and electric fleet, it decided to go with the UIC system from the outset as the Whyte system doesn't really work effectively when it comes to describing such things as powered boogies

 

The UIC system :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC_classification

The Whyte system :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation

 

For steam loco's I thought France just counted axles instead of wheels-eg 2-3-1 for a Pacific. I think the Swiss count powered axles followed by total axles? Wiki isn't very clear on this.

 

Ed

[Robin Brasher]

001.JPGManston on Swanage turntable today. There are lots of differences to the Hornby cycling lion version. On the late crest version different lining on cab and tender, cut down tender, wooden window frames, red nameplates. For me it would be easier to rename and number another Hornby late crest Bulleid Pacific rather than alter the new model of Manston.

The previous limited edition R2260 looks just like the preserved Manston.

[Robin Brasher]

R2260 Manston from about 10 years ago.

 

IMG_8140.JPG

It looks like the preserved Manston on the Swanage Railway. Please see my picture on page 30 of this topic on 20 December 2013.

[Robin Brasher]

The ageing population reference is  around eyesight.I am finding 'O' gauge models more interesting and easier to appreciate now than the 'smaller gauges,( I am only 59!!), but have been an enthusiast of 'OO' for 30 years.I applaud Hornby for bringing out an eye catching model in the P2. My family find colourful, large locomotives( authentically portrayed) as something eye catching. The current preservation and heritage scene is all about exhibits being presented in an appealing way, demonstrating a variety of liveries carried,otherwise if they were 'truly authentic' in representing their 'time', they would be in filthy black.I hope Golden Age get their 'OO' gauge Merchants out soon, as with the variety of colours and appearances, it will give the public a taste of what a prestigious locomotives the original Merchants were.

The locomotives were not all filthy black. I remember seeing a BR green airsmoothed Bulleid Pacific hauling the Golden Arrow in the mid 1950s through Orpington Station. The locomotive and coaches were immaculate. I expect the other regions had some prestige trains that were also immaculate. I agree that most engines had a layer of grime on them in BR days.