Ratio GWR bracket signals

[Richard Mawer]

Ok, is it just me or are the GWR ratio bracket signal kits almost impossible to make, or are they actually impossible to make???

 

The superstructure was fine, but as soon as I tried to glue the counter balance to the rear of the pivot shaft, I hit a problem. The glue (Rocket plastic glue) seemed to melt the plastic axle and create a mush in the hole through the plastic post. I ended up replacing the plastic shaft after changing the glue to revell cement and the same happened. I am one super gluing the signal arms to wire stubs, but now have issues with the wires and 90 degree brackets and operating wires!!!!!

 

Are there any short cuts or other makes of arms that actually work, or better still, other makes of operating semaphores which I can connect servos to????

 

Highly frustrated,

 

Rich mawer

[Gwiwer]

I've never been able to built them both working and robust enough to withstand more than a few moves.

 

If you can locate Testors adhesive that may prove more satisfactory failing which I also use Hornby's own poly cement

[Suzie]

There appear to be two types of Ratio semaphores available - I have seen both types for sale recently. The older ones - an example of which I made several years ago - were a complete disaster, but a new one I bought recently (N^o 469) is completely re-engineered with metal cranks and bearings and with pre-painted arms with working spectacle plates too. It looks like it might actually work when I get time to put it together, I am just planning on how to fit the working lamps before I start.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Suzie

[Coach bogie]

I have used both the modern and older types without any major issues. The weakness is the metal spindle to plastic fixing. On the older type I use replacement stiff wire for spindles with a piece of offcut brass soldered to the spindel as a back shade. The operating wire is looped through a pre drilled hole in this brass shade. All the stresses are sent through this assembly and not the signal arm. Not prototypical but it works. The theatre displays all work (only one destination will show) by a shutter soldered to the operating wire sliding within a box made from plastcard All below are produced from Ratio parts and are operated by either Peco point motors or ex GPO relays. Personally, I find the older type easier to work with - the arms are much stronger.

 

.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Gwiwer]

Nice work Mike.

 

One of the other issues I have with Ratio signlas is the length of the arms.  They might be fine for some locations but I'm very sure they are much too long for a good many GWR / BR-WR prototypes.  I cut mine down accordingly.

[The Great Bear]

I have used both the modern and older types without any major issues. The weakness is the metal spindle to plastic fixing. On the older type I use replacement stiff wire for spindles with a piece of offcut brass soldered to the spindel as a back shade. The operating wire is looped through a pre drilled hole in this brass shade. All the stresses are sent through this assembly and not the signal arm. Not prototypical but it works. The theatre displays all work (only one destination will show) by a shutter soldered to the operating wire sliding within a box made from plastcard All below are produced from Ratio parts and are operated by either Peco point motors or ex GPO relays. Personally, I find the older type easier to work with - the arms are much stronger.

 

Westbury 5.jpg.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Great set of signals, Mike. To get the one on the right with six arms to work must have been a challenge. Is the (blurred) signal in the foreground a backing signal - nice touch.

 

All the best

 

Jon

[Coach bogie]

Great set of signals, Mike. To get the one on the right with six arms to work must have been a challenge. Is the (blurred) signal in the foreground a backing signal - nice touch.

 

All the best

 

Jon

 

Yes a backing signal. When the arm is off the push rod reveals a destination in the indicator shelter made to work by soldering scrap brass to operating rod. Arm cut down from one of the smaller arms in the ration pack.

 

With the brackets, I make a swing arm with a centre pivot from scrap brass, just like old fashioned scales. It reverses the pull but that is corrected at the base with angle cranks etc. As above, they most are operated from behind using a pre drilled piece of scrap brass, soldered to the spindle. This takes all the shocks. When I used to attach the operating rod to the arm, the platsic was not strong enough and I could never ger a strong enough plastic-metal bond with the spindle.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Richard Mawer]

Thank you for the advice folks.

 

Nice work Mike. Looks good.

 

I have now used superglue to stick a track pin onto the rear of each arm, sticking the head onto the arm. The shaft of the pin passes through the hole in the arm. I have taken inspiration from Mike and fashioned a piece of spare plastic (not brass I"m afraid) to attach to the pin behind the post and with superglue. This piece of plastic has another hole to take the operating wire. This will have the added benefit of a longer operating lever on the signal arm. As I am using servos to operate them, the greater the movement in the wire, the better. The wires will now pass to the rear of the posts, so I will have to make new holes in the plastic baseplate.

 

To operate the bracket arm, I have completely given up on the two small cranks and linking wires. Apart from my own frustrations, I take on board the comments you folks have made. Instead, I am just taking the wire diagonally from the arm, through a hole in the platform, down to the base. This is not prototypical but should work. I like the idea of Mike"s rocker arm and will investigate that further. Do you have any photos of it?

 

Slight change of tack, does anyone know whether P and D Marsh signals can actually be made to work?

 

Thanks for the advice to date.

 

Rich

[Richard Mawer]

I have put some photos in my blog: Buckingham West. My solution is very much Heath Robinson and heavy duty, but should work.

 

Merry Christmas

[Coach bogie]

I have a couple of signals still under construction that shows the rocker arm and rear linked puch rods. This one is part of a large gantry. A long term project that I come back to when I am feeling brave. It has nine working arms including call ons. Plasticard gantry with Ratio parts.

 

 

My signals on the main line are linked to, or operated by the points and are used to help identify which way the points are set. This one was never used (to be replaced by the unfinished gantry) but the two operating arms are linked to one push rod switching which arm is off/on in one movement of the rod acting on the rocker. Again, push rod links to arms via the backshade to take all the stresses off the arm.

 

When acting direct on the arm, shock from motors caused several to break away from the spindle as I never found a glue strong enough with such a small contact area. I have had zero failure whilst acting against a soldered back shade. The longer stroke also makes adjustment much easier when motorising.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

[tomparryharry]

I have used both the modern and older types without any major issues. The weakness is the metal spindle to plastic fixing. On the older type I use replacement stiff wire for spindles with a piece of offcut brass soldered to the spindel as a back shade. The operating wire is looped through a pre drilled hole in this brass shade. All the stresses are sent through this assembly and not the signal arm. Not prototypical but it works. The theatre displays all work (only one destination will show) by a shutter soldered to the operating wire sliding within a box made from plastcard All below are produced from Ratio parts and are operated by either Peco point motors or ex GPO relays. Personally, I find the older type easier to work with - the arms are much stronger.

 

Westbury 5.jpg.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Nice photo Mike. Is that a mink F in behind the locomotive?

 

Ian

[Coach bogie]

Nice photo Mike. Is that a mink F in behind the locomotive?

 

Ian

 Yes from a BSL/Phoenix kit.

 

MIke Wiltshire

[The Great Bear]

Mike, coming back to this thread with a question as I am going to give this approach to bracket signals a go.

 

I have used both the modern and older types without any major issues. The weakness is the metal spindle to plastic fixing. On the older type I use replacement stiff wire for spindles with a piece of offcut brass soldered to the spindel as a back shade. The operating wire is looped through a pre drilled hole in this brass shade. All the stresses are sent through this assembly and not the signal arm. Not prototypical but it works.

 

To confirm - so you used the Ratio arms and, presumably, superglued the wire to it?

 

I have a couple of signals still under construction that shows the rocker arm and rear linked puch rods. This one is part of a large gantry. A long term project that I come back to when I am feeling brave. It has nine working arms including call ons. Plasticard gantry with Ratio parts.

 

My signals on the main line are linked to, or operated by the points and are used to help identify which way the points are set. This one was never used (to be replaced by the unfinished gantry) but the two operating arms are linked to one push rod switching which arm is off/on in one movement of the rod acting on the rocker. Again, push rod links to arms via the backshade to take all the stresses off the arm.

 

When acting direct on the arm, shock from motors caused several to break away from the spindle as I never found a glue strong enough with such a small contact area. I have had zero failure whilst acting against a soldered back shade. The longer stroke also makes adjustment much easier when motorising.

 

I really do like the idea of the rocker arm - the one Ratio bracket signal I've tried in past those cranks were so fiddly and the length of wire had to be spot on, both overly testing of my skill. Did get one working eventually - but it did get ever so close at times to throwing the work in hand across the room in despair.

 

It's a sunny day here so a pleasant drive to the local model shop beckons to get some suitable bits and pieces to give this a go.

 

Thanks for the good ideas

 

Jon

Edited February 22, 2014 by The Great Bear

[richard i]

Sorry to open this up again, but fighting with the arms and cranks, question. If the back shade glues to the pin coming from the arm, what then is the white pin coming straight out the back of the post in almost the same place for? It hinders the movement of the signal, am I missing something?

Many thanks

Richard

[Horsetan]

The white pin is a "rest" for the back shade when the arm is horizontal. The back shade should be above, not below, the white pin.

[Richard Mawer]

Hi Richard.

 

Because I am more interested in having the signals working reliably rather than looking perfect, I have modified mine. Following on from Coach Bogie, I have ditched the Ratio cranks in favour of a sea-saw and central pivot. I super glue a track pin to the latice to act as the pivot. I also use a track pin glued onto the signal arm instead of the plastic axle. I use a cut off bit of plastic on the rear where the back shade should be and loop the operating wire in that. I superglue it to the track pin. The white stick out the rear of the post gets cut off and the servo controls both positions.

 

My way doesn't look so pretty but is more reliable.

 

Have a look at the photos in Buckingham West. There are some on the recent thread in layout forums and also some earlier ones on my initial blog.

 

Rich

[Suzie]

Sometimes the cranks just work - and other times they are a bit of a nightmare. I will probably look at using a see-saw next time I make one.

 

Don't forget that GWR signals are lower quadrant when looking at the white pin sticking out - it does not get in the way.

 

There is a servo motorising base available for the ratio signals now that some might find useful

 

http://www.shapeways.com/product/T897FTWDQ/sbr-ratio-signal-motorising-base-sprue-of-five

[WhitehouseFilms]

Is it possible to set up a bracket signal kit so that it has 3 signal arms, but you can operate each arm seperate with having to rig it to move 2 signals at once? 

Reason is that I'm trying to convert one to something like this but have each have it's own lever.

 

Can that be possible?