LMS "New Lines" 1932 signalling

[Suzie]

Is anyone modelling (or wants to model) the LMS 1932 signalling? I have been having a play at building an LMS signal system for JMRI but because it became obsolete by 1933 by which time all new installations were of the type of system we are all more familiar with there is not much information around. I am sure it must be of interest to someone since it was still in use on the DC lines until the 1980s and it would be handy if someone was able to verify that it is a reasonable approximation to the prototype before I submit it to be included in JMRI.

 

As well as the New Lines signals I have included the Mirfield system as well to make it complete. Anyone going 'off piste' should be able to mix and match parts of the different systems to fill in any holes where there were no prototype examples used. For example the 5-aspect Mirfield stop signals can be used to provide 4-aspect new lines stop signals if required.

 

JMRI has a few limitations in that it does not automatically handle splitting signals very well and I have not worked out how to include the overlap after a stop signal automatically but I guess if anyone is keen enough they can add an extra sensor with a bit of logic to generate the held state, and the automatic wait for one minute operation of the call-on yellow light too - the average viewer is not likely to notice if these bits are not quite as the prototype unless something goes wrong and trains get bunched up a bit.

 

I have not bothered posting it up yet in case no one is interested, but let me know if you are. it will be handy to get some feedback.

 

[Xerces Fobe2]

Only just found this post - I have made a couple of these signals and will be making more for Croxley WRD.

 

Thanks for posting this

 

Nigel

[Flying Pig]

This page may be of interest: http://www.davros.org/rail/signalling/lmsr/ (seems the Mirfield article was never written which is a pity).

 

[Oldddudders]

ISTR the Mirfield installation was the subject of an article in Trains Illustrated, circa 1960.

[Suzie]

I have submitted the signal system to JMRI and it should be in the next test release. Web page for it is here:-

 

 

http://jmri.org/xml/signals/LMS-1932/index.shtml

[Metr0Land]

Yes, very interested as it was used on the DC Lines joint BR/LT and also I believe joint LT/BR on a stretch of LTSR Barking area.

[Suzie]

Camden to Watford DC lines and Bow to Upminster LTS (the bit that is now District line before it was LT).

 

It works really well in JMRI and you can get the yellow call-on light working nicely if you have overlap track circuit sections after the stop signals and set a delay to set the call on.

[terry.ecmr]

I've put one on my Earl's Court layout. Although geographically 'pushing it a bit' I do run LNWR/LMS 4th rail so....it's my layout and I don't care!!!!!

 

I bought an 'HO' searchlight signal to start with. I then bought a cheap 2 aspect, removed the bulbs from the head, fitted new LED's and then put the bits together with a bit of brass tubing.

 

Terry

 

 

 

ecmr.webs.com  just been updated with photos of the loco's.

[Suzie]

Here's my test panel I used in JMRI to check that it worked as per the information I could find.

 

 

If you want to run it you can download the daily developer build of JMRI (if you cannot wait for a proper release and you have somewhere to test it).

 

Panel file here :-LMS New Lines.xml

 

Just load the panel in PanelPro, then go in to Tools/Tables/Sensors from the main PanelPro window and activate the sensors from IS9 to IS1 to simulate a train running through. Follow another train behind and you will see the 1-minute delay before the calling on light comes on when the following train comes up to a stop aspect. The repeater signals only have a stop and proceed aspect so no need for call on.

 

I have added a 4-aspect signal using a Mirfield mast. You can mix and match at will because although the New Lines and Mirfield systems were separated by a good few miles they are basically the same system at heart and fully compatible. I have seen mention that 4-aspect signals existed on the new lines but not what type they were (stop or repeater) or where they were located. I can add a 4-aspect repeater mast if required.

 

I think it is fair game to use the signals anywhere on the former LMS in a location that might have been signalled in 1932 (it is a narrow window - 1933 is too late, the ministry of transport had already put their foot down!). The Great Western used searchlights too as did the LNER so there is always a good reason to have searchlights if you are North of the river.

 

There is some signal wiring and configuration information for DCC on the Signalist website.

[Suzie]

I've put one on my Earl's Court layout. Although geographically 'pushing it a bit' I do run LNWR/LMS 4th rail so....it's my layout and I don't care!!!!!

 

I bought an 'HO' searchlight signal to start with. I then bought a cheap 2 aspect, removed the bulbs from the head, fitted new LED's and then put the bits together with a bit of brass tubing.

 

Terry

 

 

 

ecmr.webs.com  just been updated with photos of the loco's.

 

Not much chance of these becoming available ready to run so good to have a go. You have just made it from standard parts just like the prototypes I guess. A true model!

 

JMRI will drive it fine, but probably not much point if you only have one, but activating the call-on light might be fun.

[trapoint]

Hi   I have just came across this topic I was not looking for it and it is a few years old but I am very interested in these signalling systems. I wanted to build a model of a new lines station with a junction complete with working LMS stop and proceed signalling but I felt I did have the right skills to do this on my own this would need to be a team thing all with the same interest. Could such a team be put together ?

 

But for now I would like to add my own comments on what has been written here . First the Mirfield signalling system and the new lines signalling were not the same and the signals  could not be mixed up despite the fact that red marker lights , calling on aspects and double yellow aspects where used on both . . The Mirfield scheme was a speed signalling system as used in north America and other parts of the world although this system was not same as these ! Indeed the signal boxes that controlled it still had block instruments I believe  ! The main reason for its installation was to see if it was possible to do away with junction signals as such  ( Although there was just one leading on to branch line  west of the station )  trains could cross from fast to slow lines and vice versa  etc  according  to the speed that was permitted at the junction plus other factors indeed this is a somewhat complex system to wrap your head around! If you wanted to copy it you best start from scratch .

 

Much has been written about the new lines signalling and need not be repeated here however the Euston To Watford line and the Barking to Upminister line were not the same the Watford line was a Two aspect system with some three aspect signals here and there mainly at junctions , the Upminister line was all three aspect with no repeaters both had small yellow aspects for calling on but the Upminister line soon dispensed with these and was replaced by a white light with the letter A I think ! and soon after the war even they went to be replaced white diamonds  the drivers having to telephone the signalman before passing a red signal.

 

The combined stop an junction distants as used on the Watford line were not true four aspect signals as we know them despite showing four aspects ! ! .there were only two of these BE1 Bushey down starter and Watford high street up home HS4  ( Not seen a photo of this one any one seen one ? ) I now believe these to show double yellow  only when the points were set in the curved direction even if the junction signal ahead was showing green and green when the points were set straight .

 

Would anyone like to comment about the above ?

[Suzie]

Hi Trapoint

 

JMRI does most of the logic so it should be quite easy to just plant the signals and go if you have all the blocks and sensors configured with correct overlaps. Adding the automatic miniature yellow is a bit more complex because you have to add a LOGIX that triggers after a delay to set the aspect, but that is the only tricky bit.

 

While the two types of New Lines and Mirfield implementations were slightly different they can all be made to conform to a single set of underlying rules so that they can all work as a single signal system. If you leave out the repeaters the basic stop masts become 3-aspect. The implementations were a bit sparse so not all possible combinations were ever implemented, so you can probably find yourself doing something on a model that was never done on the prototype, but the rules are there to allow it to work.

 

I don't really see the Mirfield system as a true speed system in the way it is usually done in North America with aspects assigned to specific speeds without any indication of the route ahead to be taken, it is more akin to North American Western style route signalling but with different indications. The signals really only show how many blocks are clear ahead, whether you are diverging, and if you are allowed to proceed as permissive.

 

I think that the '4-aspect' signals you are referring to were a bit special case. I have seen a New Lines diagram for the Watford-Euston that appears to show 4-aspect signals on plain track without junctions that suggests that they were there purely because of short blocks or some other reason for extra stopping time being required.

[adanapress]

Just in passing, not exactly on this precise topic but had you noted a discovery in some bushes on the Great Central (northern) a few years back.   It was a semaphore

signal at first glance quite ordinary, but with a slide holding two coloured lenses that the signalman moved up and down in front of a qhite lamp.   At least that what I understood, a sort of halfway stage towards  colour lights.  It was intact and complete and duly saved. .