F-UnitMad Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) On 23/12/2020 at 20:09, Regularity said: Please tell me that you aren’t using mains cable for DCC and DC power. It’s not about the rating, but about the practice of using cabling intended for one purpose, for another. Ok, "I'm not using mains cable for DCC and DC power". 👍😁 Edited December 17, 2022 by F-UnitMad 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Regularity said: Please tell me that you aren’t using mains cable for DCC and DC power. It’s not about the rating, but about the practice of using cabling intended for one purpose, for another. And why do you think it's wrong? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) Except, of course, I am.... 🙄 T'ain't my fault, Guv, honest. I was following the example of a Demonstrator at Telford Guildex some years ago, now. That's what he was using to demonstrate wiring for DCC, so it's the fault of the Gay Joe Guild really. 😝 Edited December 17, 2022 by F-UnitMad 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 On 22/12/2020 at 20:01, F-UnitMad said: ....and to wrap it up, a bit of a State of the Locos update... Oi, how come there aren't any F units then? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 8 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said: Oi, how come there aren't any F units then? 7 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2020 1 hour ago, melmerby said: And why do you think it's wrong? Because in a moment of confusion, it is possible to send 240v where 18v was intended. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2020 1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said: Except, of course, I am.... T'ain't my fault, Guv, honest. I was following the example of a Demonstrator at Telford Guildex some years ago, now. That's what he was using to demonstrate wiring for DCC, so it's the fault of the Gay Joe Guild really. About as reliable a source of good practice as Facebook... The individual wires, enclosed in their own sheathing, are fine. It’s leaving the grey outer sheathing which leads to the potential for confusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Regularity said: Because in a moment of confusion, it is possible to send 240v where 18v was intended. Only if someone was daft enough to fit a mains plug to it?? * Unlikely in my house as SWMBO very rarely ventures up the loft, & as almost everything electrical these days comes with a plug already fitted, my lad wouldn't have a clue how to fit one to my DCC bus anyway!! This despite the fact I've shown him how to wire a plug. I suspect if he ever does have to do it, he'll do what his generation does for everything - he'll google it & watch a 'how to' on YouTube... * Although one should never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot. There was a recent thread on this very forum where someone was proposing the use of mains plugs & sockets to join their 12v power supply to their layout, and join the electrics between boards together. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Regularity said: About as reliable a source of good practice as Facebook... The individual wires, enclosed in their own sheathing, are fine. It’s leaving the grey outer sheathing which leads to the potential for confusion. Why is it bad practice? Confusion for who? You don't know what individual wires are in that casing, grey sheathing isn't just used for fixed mains wiring, if that's what you are suggesting. I'm sorry, but these theories about not usng mains cable because..... are just total hogwash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Regularity said: Because in a moment of confusion, it is possible to send 240v where 18v was intended. Total rubbish. I don't know who told you that but it's twaddle. You shouldn't have 240v anywhere near the baseboard. If you have that's even worse practice. Edited December 23, 2020 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 Hmmm.... post some photos of F-Units, and the thread immediately plummets downhill.... Must be a lesson there, somewhere.... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2020 Jordan thanks for the photos. I am quite interested in building work. We have done two loft conversions the first was done completely by Marion and myself apart from the plastering ( didn't think I could get the 45deg join with the ceiling looking straight) the second was done by builders as we were exhausted after being 24/7 carers for the in laws. All the roofs I have dealt with have only had a single purlin each side. On the first loft conversion some sagging of the ceiling joist had occurred so we laid new joists using 8x3 timbers to take the load of the side walls which supported the purlins when we removed the braces. On the second two 8x2s supported on downstairs walls were bolted together to make binders each side to support new joists and support the side walls and purlins. The are a couple of photos showing the original roof and the new loft room under construction at the start of my loft layout thread (although we have since moved). I see you are being castigated for using mains cable. Usually the perceived danger is you might connect 240v AC to your layout. Well for starters I do not allow mains onto the layout the only thing that gets plugged into the mains is modern PSUs one or two mostly. Since I do not use 3 pin plugs or mains type sockets on the layout I am at a loss to understand where they think I would be connecting the mains. Once the house wiring is completed I do not have loose cables connected to the mains lying around perhaps others do. Besides I have fitted a modern consumer unit with RCDs and MCBs which would give a pretty good protection for myself. Don 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2020 19 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said: Hmmm.... post some photos of F-Units, and the thread immediately plummets downhill.... Must be a lesson there, somewhere.... Too many conspiracy theories. Post some F-Units and the world's coming to an end. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said: Only if someone was daft enough to fit a mains plug to it?? * Unlikely in my house as SWMBO very rarely ventures up the loft, & as almost everything electrical these days comes with a plug already fitted, my lad wouldn't have a clue how to fit one to my DCC bus anyway!! This despite the fact I've shown him how to wire a plug. I suspect if he ever does have to do it, he'll do what his generation does for everything - he'll google it & watch a 'how to' on YouTube... * Although one should never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot. There was a recent thread on this very forum where someone was proposing the use of mains plugs & sockets to join their 12v power supply to their layout, and join the electrics between boards together. Where's the button for either 'For Gods Sake' or 'There has to be one' See my comments in the previous post. I just wonder what idiot takes a bit of cable not knowing what it is connected to and connects to something on the layout. When wiring make sure you know what you are wiring what both ends are connected to and use a meter to check things through particularly important if it is anything to do with 240v. You should never connect wires up without knowing wahts on the other end. One rule I would make is anything over say 30v should never be connected to the same terminal strips as your low voltage stuff. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 The closest that 240v gets to my layout is the plug on the floor from the transformer to the mains. The transformer itself sits on a shelf just under the layout, with 12v wiring to the NCE Booster and the truckstop sign. Power to the DCC bus is from the booster, using wires not from mains cable, via an audio jack & socket, as I also have the 'basic' NCE panel set up so I can swap over the supply to use the Powercab in programming mode, rather than 'program on main', as the programming mode reads CV values back. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Donw said: I see you are being castigated for using mains cable. That is blowing it up out of all proportion. I merely passed on a comment made to me many years ago by a fully-trained electrician who happened to be an excellent modeller, when I suggested using twin and earth for the DCC buss, obviously with the earth unused. That’s it. That’s all there is behind it: a word of caution in favour of safety, but it appears that in a desire to provoke a controversy and create a storm in a tea-cup, you and Melmerby have taken on the role of keyboard warriors, when Jordan is not only perfectly capable of dealing with the issue rationally, but has demonstrably done so, and by not feeding mains into the layout (I know some modellers who have their transformers mounted under the baseboard surface, and who have no problems with this as they don’t use wire intended for mains as part of the layout wiring) has reduced the potential for confusion to a minimum. But, it’s like internet security, where the only 100% certain way to make your computer safe from viruses is to never connect it to a network. The only way to be 100% certain that this sort of mistake can’t happen, is to eliminate the possibility of confusion. Bit like the 100% sure way to get idiots rising to the defence of someone in absolutely no need of it (because they aren’t being attacked) is to suggest that there are safer ways of doing something by completely eliminating the possibility of confusion. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2020 2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said: This despite the fact I've shown him how to wire a plug. I suspect if he ever does have to do it, he'll do what his generation does for everything - he'll google it & watch a 'how to' on YouTube.. That’s precisely the point, Jordon. Not necessarily your son, just someone else in the unhappy circumstances of something happening to you. And of course, google and youtube only contain genuinely perfectly accurate information on how to do precisely what someone is asking about... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share Posted December 24, 2020 19 minutes ago, Regularity said: someone else in the unhappy circumstances of something happening to you. In those circumstances I can guarantee that the whole lot would be ripped out pronto & replaced with a proper loft conversion (probably paid for with my Life Insurance!) not fiddled with to try & make it go!!! I agree that "castigated" was a bit OTT; gently cautioned would be more like it in this instance... Re the time of this post - no I'm not back on Nights, just up late as I don't have to get up early tomorow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 24, 2020 8 hours ago, Regularity said: That is blowing it up out of all proportion. I merely passed on a comment made to me many years ago by a fully-trained electrician who happened to be an excellent modeller, when I suggested using twin and earth for the DCC buss, obviously with the earth unused. That’s it. That’s all there is behind it: a word of caution in favour of safety, but it appears that in a desire to provoke a controversy and create a storm in a tea-cup, you and Melmerby have taken on the role of keyboard warriors, when Jordan is not only perfectly capable of dealing with the issue rationally, but has demonstrably done so, and by not feeding mains into the layout (I know some modellers who have their transformers mounted under the baseboard surface, and who have no problems with this as they don’t use wire intended for mains as part of the layout wiring) has reduced the potential for confusion to a minimum. Keyboard Warrior? Using T&E mains cable is perfectly safe. To suggest otherwise is misleading. As I said before not all cable that comes with a grey sheath and is flat is mains cable. Should that also be banned in case somebody decides to put a mains plug on it and connect 240v where it shouldn't be? That hypothesis could be applied to to almost any cable on any equioment. As to safety, I would not use any mains connection to the layout and would not even have a transformer mounted on the baseboard. That way there is absoloutely no chance of anyone connecting mains to the layout. My various power supplies are all remote from the baseboard and connect to it only at low voltage. Any interconnecting plugs must be of a type that can't be mistaken for mains equipment. I suppose a total idiot could disconnect those non-T&E low voltage feeds and put 13A plugs on them but you can't idiot proof everything Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share Posted December 24, 2020 Okaaaay...... can we draw a line under the issue of electrical cables now? Otherwise it's going to descend into an acrimonious debate that is really irrelevant to this thread, especially as this is a permenant, fixed layout with just one idiot in attendance, not a portable club layout that could be taken to a venue where a whole bunch of idiots could potentially try & plug the track directly into the mains. Thankyou gentlemen, you may stand at ease. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 More details of the F units, please. I've grown fond of the Australian bulldogs, but attempts to obtain an HO one so far failed due to limited run syndrome. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
long island jack Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 35 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said: Okaaaay...... can we draw a line under the issue of electrical cables now? Otherwise it's going to descend into an acrimonious debate that is really irrelevant to this thread, especially as this is a permenant, fixed layout with just one idiot in attendance, not a portable club layout that could be taken to a venue where a whole bunch of idiots could potentially try & plug the track directly into the mains. Thankyou gentlemen, you may stand at ease. Amen to that!! 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 24, 2020 Me, I was tucked up in bed at ten, having finished off a bottle of Baileys being kept for my daughter who is in France, so I’ve missed all the fun, but I do like the Funits. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 22 minutes ago, Northroader said: I was tucked up in bed at ten, having finished off a bottle of Baileys I need to be tucked up in bed just from reading that. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 24, 2020 Well, you know how it is, Doc, having decided last night was the start of the festive season, instead of drinking bottles of beer from the supermarket, you have a rummage in the sideboard to see what was left over from last Xmas, and there was this bottle centre foreground, and daughter isn’t coming because it the new tiers, and you need something to wash down the bosses trial mince pie, and.... 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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