AndyB Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Wanted to give an update on how the garage conversion is going....or not. The persistent wet weather has seen driving rain penetrate around the passenger door frame. My fault entirely as the door swelled and I probably used brute force once too often, loosening the frame sealant. Water crept round through and has made the breeze blocks damp. Been filling in the cracks. More troublesome, some years ago my neighbour placed a garden shed and tool store hard up against the rear wall of the garage. In previous years this hasn't caused a significant problem. The prolonged wet weather has seen water falling onto the shed roof draining down the garage wall - the gap he left is about 1cm. I believe he was trying to reduce the amount of his own garden eaten up by his shed by shoving it hard up against the garage. Clearly there is no ventilation between the shed and garage wall. The end result has been that water has seeped through the brickwork and is clearly visible on the inside of the garage. We're in the process of trying to resolve the issue but the neighbour's view is that his shed is "no where near" the garage. In other words, uncooperative and in total denial. I took a photo and it leaves little doubt. So, I'm looking at ways of waterproofing from the inside. I found this damp proof paint which claims a 2 bar waterproofing capability (roughly a column of water 67 feet high). Obviously in an ideal world I'd persuade the neighbour to move his shed, fit a gutter and prevent water gushing on to my garage wall in the first place. But life isn't always idea, so I'd be interested to hear from you guys if this is likely to do the trick? We've also toyed with the idea of masticing a slanting gutter to the roof of his shed so that he doesn't have to move the shed at all to facilitate water collection and disposal. The water could then be collected in a barrel perhaps. Not sure he'd agree to his shed being modified though. So, we're sort of out of options short of consulting a solicitor.... Best, andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Sorry to hear about the problems. Dave (Chris) might have some advice on this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 The persistent wet weather has seen driving rain penetrate around the passenger door frame. My fault entirely as the door swelled and I probably used brute force once too often, loosening the frame sealant. Water crept round through and has made the breeze blocks damp. Been filling in the cracks. Not seen that before ! More troublesome, some years ago my neighbour placed a garden shed and tool store hard up against the rear wall of the garage. In previous years this hasn't caused a significant problem. The prolonged wet weather has seen water falling onto the shed roof draining down the garage wall - the gap he left is about 1cm. I believe he was trying to reduce the amount of his own garden eaten up by his shed by shoving it hard up against the garage. Clearly there is no ventilation between the shed and garage wall. The end result has been that water has seeped through the brickwork and is clearly visible on the inside of the garage. We're in the process of trying to resolve the issue but the neighbour's view is that his shed is "no where near" the garage. In other words, uncooperative and in total denial. I took a photo and it leaves little doubt. So, I'm looking at ways of waterproofing from the inside. Don't ! I found this damp proof paint which claims a 2 bar waterproofing capability (roughly a column of water 67 feet high). Obviously in an ideal world I'd persuade the neighbour to move his shed, fit a gutter and prevent water gushing on to my garage wall in the first place. But life isn't always idea, so I'd be interested to hear from you guys if this is likely to do the trick? We've also toyed with the idea of masticing a slanting gutter to the roof of his shed so that he doesn't have to move the shed at all to facilitate water collection and disposal. The water could then be collected in a barrel perhaps. Not sure he'd agree to his shed being modified though. So, we're sort of out of options short of consulting a solicitor.... Best, andy Don't do anything from the inside what you will have is soaking wet brickwork, you need to deal with the problem at source and not cover it up. Your neighbour needs to move his shed away by 150mm or put gutter up. Can you post a pic ? party walls are never the boundary (unless internal) as there is usually a 100-150mm gap to the boundary from any brickwork to allow for the footings. Don't go down the route of solicitors but invite him in and show him what's happening and then try and get him to move the shed a bit. The trouble with the Law as a route is it does nothing to solve a problem but exacerbate it, as both sides dig heels in. If you could post a pic it would be a great help as then I can see what is above the shed. I Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Thanks for the quick responses. Agreed it is not the best idea to treat the brickwork on the inside and it would be great if the shed could be moved. Here's a couple of photos of the problem. My garage is to the left (brickwork). The shed and an improvised toolshed are hard up against the brickwork and, as you can see, underneath the sofit and guttering of my own garage and another neighbour's garage (which attaches to my own). The tool shed has a stepladder on it with the red feet. The shed has a couple of posts thrown on top, just to help you orientate the photo. I've noted your thoughts about the brickwork NOT marking the boundary, so would I be right thinking that his shed is on my property? I think my thought about solicitors was a sense of frustration - it'd be unlikely I'd want to go down that route. Once again, thanks for your support and advice. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 Thanks for the quick responses. Agreed it is not the best idea to treat the brickwork on the inside and it would be great if the shed could be moved. Here's a couple of photos of the problem. Photo1.JPG Photo2.JPG My garage is to the left (brickwork). The shed and an improvised toolshed are hard up against the brickwork and, as you can see, underneath the sofit and guttering of my own garage and another neighbour's garage (which attaches to my own). The tool shed has a stepladder on it with the red feet. The shed has a couple of posts thrown on top, just to help you orientate the photo. I've noted your thoughts about the brickwork NOT marking the boundary, so would I be right thinking that his shed is on my property? I think my thought about solicitors was a sense of frustration - it'd be unlikely I'd want to go down that route. Once again, thanks for your support and advice. Andy Cheers Andy Briefly, unless you have an agreement for your guttering to be on his property essentially his shed is on yours. Any agreement would of been flagged up at purchase and they are unusual nowadays although not unheard of, Check the deed/land registry document and see what it shows and try and reason with him, get him to move it off at least to the edge of the fascia as that will allow enough ventilation around the back of it. You have to play it so that you are being reasonable and he is not and make it show. A simple solution should he not wish to play ball is to take your gutter down temporarily and let any rainfall deluge his shed and garden, it won't make your wall much worse but he might get the idea. He's taking the p1ss and it needs pointing out to him. I admit I am such an awkward old sod that I would be tempted to chainsaw down the shed at the boundary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I don't know if it applies to sheds adjacent to garages but I believe there is a rule that free-standing sheds (i.e. not lean-tos) should not be within 6' of a house owing to fire risk... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Thanks, Dave. The shed was erected much later than the sheds and well after we both moved in to our respective properties. As far as I am aware there was nothing in the sales details or searches that said the rear guttering of my garage had permission to be on his land, so the situation is most probably that his tools store and shed is on our land and that of my other neighbour. We are going for a beer later and we'll do our best to persuade/reason, gajole. But in essence I believe we should enforce our right to have the structure moved. I don't know if there is any rule which if the shed has been there for a number of years without our objecting to it that he essentially has "squatters rights"? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 We are going for a beer later and we'll do our best to persuade/reason, gajole. But in essence I believe we should enforce our right to have the structure moved. I don't know if there is any rule which if the shed has been there for a number of years without our objecting to it that he essentially has "squatters rights"? Andy Yep, best way is to try and reason it out, just explain that the shed is making your property damp and you have to do something about it, just having it moved 150mm so you have a ventilation gap and putting some guttering on it will do the trick (so long as it doesn't get used as a cubby hole) as far as "squatters rights" there are none,if his shed is on your property then it should be moved. If he should get stroppy don't lose your rag, walk away and bite your lip. The worst you will have to do is put fencing up at the rear of the garage to delineate the boundary. Also in answer to RJS1977 there is a building reg that any garage or house that is timber framed and faced cannot be nearer than 1M to a boundary, I know this because I have one, and building control mistakenly gave me approval to put it up on a full plans submission but then cannot issue a certificate of completion. I've had them in knots for 13 years, but I've finally decided to build a new garage (brick) as part of the house (always our long term intention) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Thanks, again Dave. Just for clarity, is the 150mm from the brick wall of our garage or from the edge of our guttering? I'll report back once we've had a chat with him over a beer! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 Andy The boundary should be the edge of the guttering but at worst treat it as the edge of the fascia. I suggested the 150mm from the back of your brickwork as a compromise. See if he will agree to that, if not you'd need to check your deeds/documentation before doing anything else. Seems odd that a 3rd neighbour has the garden behind your garage, probably looks like a jigsaw from above. Chris Dave....Duh! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Thanks, Dave. Yes, a bit of a jigsaw. Our 3 properties form an L-shape, with mine at the corner. My neighbour on one side shares a double driveway with me and we have the 2 adjoining garages. My neighbour (the one with the shed) on the other side has a garden which runs along the back of our garages. I think reasonableness over this may be the key, as you have pointed out. Explain the problem, explain that in ignorance he accidently built on our land and that because of the immense amount of rain - which may become the norm - it has made both garages damp. If he repeats that his shed/tool store is nowhere near our garages then I'll show the photo to him and ask him to re-express himself. If he refuses to accept that the boundary is inline with the guttering simply walk away but offer to ask a planning inspector for an opinion. I'm hoping that offering to involve a 3rd "official" party in the discussion will persuade him that the easier thing is to shift the shed. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Hi Andy To help persuade your neighbour to co-operate you might want to remind him that the back of his shed will undoubtedly begin to suffer too as he can't maintain it... and when the roof needs renewal, as it undoubly will, he won't be able to lap the new cladding over the back edge to make it water tight. Mind you, he won't be able to nail it to the edge/fascia either! Maybe offer to help him move it too? I also think the 'threat' of asking a Building Inspector for an opinion would be better than a Planning Officer... who wouldn't be interested at all! And Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 Hi Andy To help persuade your neighbour to co-operate you might want to remind him that the back of his shed will undoubtedly begin to suffer too as he can't maintain it... and when the roof needs renewal, as it undoubly will, he won't be able to lap the new cladding over the back edge to make it water tight. Mind you, he won't be able to nail it to the edge/fascia either! Maybe offer to help him move it too? I also think the 'threat' of asking a Building Inspector for an opinion would be better than a Planning Officer... who wouldn't be interested at all! And Good luck! Eeeerrr afraid not, A building inspector will not be interested in a shed only a failure to build a dwelling or commercial building to the recognised standard on either a building notice or full plans submission, A planning officer would be more appropriate although they may only offer an opinion and not get involved. That does depend on what was in the original permission though. Best bet is to try and reason it out and mention his lack of maintainance as well, sometimes people only act if it benefits themselves. I was in the middle of neighbour disputes recently, my site is surrounded by houses (2 of which I did build...) there is a family on one side of me who are not what you would call pleasant and on the other side I have the parents of the wife (of the family) The parents have upset and fallen out with every neighbour around them to the point of being cautioned by the police, I sometimes think you get the neighbours you deserve as when someone expressed an interest in the Bungalow I'm building I informed them of the neighbours and what they can be like (you have to declare it before selling) the person said "I know, I'm the Police officer that cautioned them, they won't bother me" They have now moved out and rented their house ! All of this is not on a bad estate or somewhere to avoid on a dark night, all of this goes on in houses with £400,000 price tags. ! Muppets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Sadly when I broached the subject last night my neighbour refused point blank to help. In fact before we could even start the discussion the shutters came down and he felt total denial was his best option. He wasn't amenable to moving the shed and stated that if we think he will ever move it, or try to help resolve the damp issue, then we are dreaming. He denies that the shed is across the boundary. Note to self, next time he comes round scrounging for food the front door may be slammed in his face. Sad really as our respective children are in the same class and play together and my actions will have to be restrained by the needs of my children to keep their friendships - even if the parents are barely speaking. Again, like Dave, the road is nice but you always get people who are quite self-centred and only act when it is in their interest. I'll certainly have a chat with the planning officer but to use the garage for anything apart from a store for bikes, tools, etc may be tricky. Are we really sure that the damp proof paint is going to lead to disaster? Think my layout plans may have to revert to an APA box! And SWMBO's plans for a sewing bench aren't likely to be fulfilled either. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Andy, you have my utmost sympathy - you should not have to alter your layout plans just because of an intransigent neighbour. If it's any consolation, we've all had them... I would be sorely tempted to do as Dave suggested and remove the part of your guttering that hangs over his shed. Then pray for rain. He probably will get the message but I doubt inter-neighbour relations will improve... My only regret is that I'm unable to offer any practical solution. Please keep us posted though. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2014 Sadly when I broached the subject last night my neighbour refused point blank to help. In fact before we could even start the discussion the shutters came down and he felt total denial was his best option. He wasn't amenable to moving the shed and stated that if we think he will ever move it, or try to help resolve the damp issue, then we are dreaming. He denies that the shed is across the boundary. Ok Andy, what you have to do next is investigate what paperwork you have, How long is it since you purchased your house and do you have any paperwork such as a copy of land registry or even if the house is under 10 years old an NHBC certificate ? It's easy to get your land registry for £3, you can also get a copy of your neighbours title deeds too for another £3. these show ownership and will have a plan with the boundary outlined in blue (it is a small scale but can sometimes be helpful) If the house is under 10 years and has NHBC (or similar) you can get them involved to look at the damp (don't mention the shed), the problem will not be with your house but if they wrote a report to show it was your neighbours fault then he can't ignore it. Whatever you do don't use the paint, There is a BODGE I have seen in the past which will work on something like this on the inside but ultimately it is the fabric of your house which needs protecting and it is going to be better to deal with the problem at source. I'll show you it if I have to...... Depending on how far he sticks his fingers in his ears at some point you are going to have to start putting things in writing, hold off on it though as it sounds like he is one of the "my house, do what I like brigade" there is also the point that if this affects your neighbour similarly then you have to act together as it is harder for one individual to ignore. Also as you have contact through your children is there anyway you or your wife could work on his wife and explain it. just getting the shed moved would be a help just ask why them why they are not willing to help you, if after this they both ignore you then quite frankly children or not I would ignore them and make it more formal, kids will sort themselves out. There is a meantime bodge you could use which he can't really object to. You drop a sheet of polythene down between his shed and your brickwork (fascia to floor) just pin it to a batten and screw this to the underside of the soffit and let it hang down it will stop water running down the brickwork and the flapping about in the wind will p1ss him off, if he won't allow you access to do this then you are going to have to cut ties and resort to formal contact. If all else fails drill a hole through the garage wall and into the shed and stick a hosepipe into it and see how he likes it ! Don't get stressed about it but lets see what you've got before the next move. Horsetan may be able to offer some advice but the law is not always the best way of dealing with things like this, there's a way out which is satisfactory to both parties, we've just got to find it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2014 Have you thought of removing the soil under your guttering? if there is no damp/wet soil at the back of your garage wall then the water can flow down and you could excavate a soakaway? Only a suggestion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Thanks, Dave. All good recommendations and very much appreciate the support from all on here. Means a lot. I think the plastic pvc should be the brightest possible colour. Or maybe should have some printing on it that his children could learn and recite! Tongue in cheek on the latter part of that as there's probably a law saying that you can't do that! I'd obviously need to gain access to his property to install it, but that may be possible.... Mick, interesting suggestion but the shed and tool store are hard up against our brickwork so there isn't a hope of excavating anything. It does occur to me that the amount of water that must have sat in the tiny gap between shed and garage brickwork must have impacted on the fabric of his shed. By that, I mean that to get the water to come through the lower bricks on our garage must mean it was "standing water" and this must have also sat against his shed too? I don't see how that can't have leaked through too. For now, deep breaths! Andy EDIT: I should mention, of course, that this is just a hobby / hobby room that is impacted by damp. Many folk have lost their homes and livelihoods in the flooding and they deserve far more support and sympathy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Just thinking out loud, but maybe it's not the shed, as such, that's causing the damp problem, but the base on which it's sat, which might be against the base of the garage wall so that it causes the damp-proof membrane to be breached. Also, it's often the case that deeds 'provide for' allowing access to neighbours in order that they can maintain their property. If not there's an Act you can use to get access... as described on a well-known 'estate agents' site... The Access to Neighbouring Land Act 1992 enables access to adjoining or adjacent land for the purpose of carrying out 'basic preservation works' to one's own property. Basic preservation works includes: maintenance, repair or renewal of a building; clearance, repair or renewal of a drain, sewer, pipe or cable; filling in or clearing a ditch; felling, removal or replacement of a tree, hedge or other plant that is dead, diseased, insecurely rooted or which is likely to be dangerous. If you need to be granted right of access, proceedings must be commenced in the County Court. The court will grant an access order if it is satisfied that the preservation works are: reasonably necessary for the preservation of the relevant land; and that they cannot be carried out, or would be very difficult to carry out, without entry onto the adjoining land. The court may still refuse access if it considers this would cause hardship to the occupier or significantly interfere with their enjoyment of the land in question.The access order will specify what work is to be carried out, when and where and may also provide for any loss or damage to the owner or occupier of the land. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Andy, perhaps some strong-backs bolted to the lower part of your garage wall (better still, the floor?) and then some small Acrow jacks through your wall to physically shove his shed away if all other options fail. Holes could be subsequently sealed with an epoxy compound. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2014 I have a small shed which stands about 4 inches off the boundary wall with one of my neighbours and although it is treated timber standing on battens it is suffering from the effects of damp at one side but especially at the back. Once the weather allows I will extend the base forward and the move the shed forwards to provide a larger air gap which will hopefully solve things. All my problem but it does suggest to me that if the damp has penetrated your brick garage wall then it must have well & truly penetrated your neighbour's timber shed and that it must be, or ought to be, fairly obvious to him if he cares to look in his shed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2014 Just thinking out loud, but maybe it's not the shed, as such, that's causing the damp problem, but the base on which it's sat, which might be against the base of the garage wall so that it causes the damp-proof membrane to be breached. Also, it's often the case that deeds 'provide for' allowing access to neighbours in order that they can maintain their property. If not there's an Act you can use to get access... as described on a well-known 'estate agents' site... The Access to Neighbouring Land Act 1992 enables access to adjoining or adjacent land for the purpose of carrying out 'basic preservation works' to one's own property. Basic preservation works includes: Snip The access order will specify what work is to be carried out, when and where and may also provide for any loss or damage to the owner or occupier of the land. Yes it is there but in the late 90's early 00's I had to do some work on the corner of a timber framed house (16th C) which was suffering from the effects of water ingress at roof level (thatch) The neighbours were what can only be called "Private" and any conversations were carried out with me on the public footpath and the owner in the front doorway (20+feet away) The person I was working for said that the neighbour up until that point had point blank refused to have anyone on the property, the Thatch had been repaired by working overhand and had stopped the problem but there was still the repair to deal with. It took me about 5 times of negotiation over a period of 4 weeks to gain access for long enough to make the repair. When the day came it was pouring with rain and I got soaked to the skin but I persevered and made the repair and left the neighbours garden tidy and clean and gave them a "Thank you " note through the letterbox. All this for the princely sum of £140. About a week later the neighbour sent me a letter thanking me for being so pleasant as up until then my customer had walked all over her property without asking and she had had enough, my customer had resorted to the law but had run out of money trying to get access. Funny that she never mentioned any of this to me when asking me to do the work ! Just by talking to her with a bit of patience and not losing my temper I had managed to achieve more without wasting money. Didn't get a thank you from the customer and took 6 weeks to get my money (I just looked it up) some people get what they deserve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Dienstleiter Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 There is a simple approach to the planning issues: write a polite letter to your district planner saying what you would like to do and asking their advice. As this is not a Development Control Application they will not charge you for a reply. At my last home I wanted to demolish a semi-derelict garage and replace with a timber building (aka home of the Muehlviertelbahn) said clearly what I wanted to do and got a letter back saying that providing the new structure was no closer to the road and did not use more than a particular proportion of the garden it would fall in the category of 'permitted development'. Keep the letter, should you later want to sell the house include it in the batch of documents you give to your conveyencer. Beware that the total square meterage for permitted development is cumulative if you add a shed, a couple of conservatories, a stable for your (iron) horses or whatever, the total still has to stay under the permitted total or formal development consent is required. Conversion of a garage into a habitable space will count against your limit. A plea that your sheds and the like are temporary buildings will hold no water either with the control authority or with a planning inspector, at the very least demolition can be required and you may also find yourself with some nasty legal bills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2014 There is a simple approach to the planning issues: write a polite letter to your district planner saying what you would like to do and asking their advice. As this is not a Development Control Application they will not charge you for a reply. Snip A plea that your sheds and the like are temporary buildings will hold no water either with the control authority or with a planning inspector, at the very least demolition can be required and you may also find yourself with some nasty legal bills. You are correct regarding the letter to planning, but the issue is with a neighbours shed creating damp issues within the garage. As an aside it takes a long time to get to the stage of demolition with any property that contravenes planning, I've seen cases taking 10 years to sort out. also just take a look at the back gardens in Slough and Southall on the approach to Heathrow and you'll see how effective planning is......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm thinking that the solution may be as follows: 1. Win the lottery. 2. Buy a large plot of land 3. Invite some folk to live on the land. 4, There would be two rules for living on said land. Rule 1. Be nice to each other. Rule 2. Obey the rules. Mike, what you're proposing is all that I'd really like my neighbour to do. Enough width to insall a gutter would be satisfactory as I'm not precious about the fact that to increase the size of his lawn he's back the shed up tight against the garage. Mike, may your shed live long and prosper! I don't actually know what my neighbour's shed is placed on but am hoping for it to rot down and send the walls and roof out of alignment. I don't think it is concrete. As for the temporary store I wouldn't be surprised if he hadn't nailed it to my garage brickwork! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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