Aberdeen/Glasgow 3hr Expresses - early to mid sixties.

[scottystitch]

As I'm going to be modeling a line through Perth in the early to mid sixties, I am looking for some information regarding the 3hr expresses that ran between Aberdeen and Glasgow.

 

Does anybody know how many of these ran in any one day in each direction?

 

Ferryhill, by May '64, had an allocation of at least 7 A4s for this purpose, probably more, and St Rollox 2, but I'm having trouble finding the frequency of this service.

 

Also, I'd be interested if anyone had any information on the A2s that also hauled this train, allocations, etc.

 

My time frame is loosely based on '62-'64 inclusive, but some Rule 1 licence will exist.

 

Many thanks in anticipation

 

Scotty.

['CHARD]

Great topic, a much loved subject and lamented railway.

 

There's been some dialogue on this before, plus there are loads of flickr images.  We'll corral these for you gradually.

 

In the meantime, are you familiar with this site:

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/

 

The advanced search function is always a good bet.

[scottystitch]

For the record, for December 1964 I have the following:

 

Aberdeen - Glasgow 07:10, 13:30

 

Glasgow - Aberdeen 08:25, 10:00, 17:30

I also have a 22:00 departure from Glasgow, this is remarked as an overnight train but by all accounts was still A4 hauled so I'm not sure if this counts.

['CHARD]

"....there were, if I recall correctly, six of these trains per day, three from either end. Over the few years of their operation the timetable may have shifted slightly but departure times were roughly 7.15, 13.30 and 17.15, running time approximately three hours, with stops at (going south) Stonehaven, Forfar, Perth and Stirling. Timings were tight: 19 minutes out to Stonehaven (16.1 miles), 43 minutes Stonehaven to Forfar (41.2 miles with a 5 mile climb to Carmont Summit at 1 in 102 from a standing start), 31 minutes Forfar to Perth (32.5 miles), 35 minutes Perth to Stirling (33 miles with 6 miles at 1 in 100 Dunning to Gleaneagles), 52 minutes Stirling to Glasgow. Train composition was generally around 6-7 coaches, 210 to 265 tons full, but could get up to 8 packed coaches in summer."

 

Taken with due acknowledgements, from this superb resource:

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page71.htm

[scottystitch]

"....there were, if I recall correctly, six of these trains per day, three from either end. Over the few years of their operation the timetable may have shifted slightly but departure times were roughly 7.15, 13.30 and 17.15, running time approximately three hours, with stops at (going south) Stonehaven, Forfar, Perth and Stirling. Timings were tight: 19 minutes out to Stonehaven (16.1 miles), 43 minutes Stonehaven to Forfar (41.2 miles with a 5 mile climb to Carmont Summit at 1 in 102 from a standing start), 31 minutes Forfar to Perth (32.5 miles), 35 minutes Perth to Stirling (33 miles with 6 miles at 1 in 100 Dunning to Gleaneagles), 52 minutes Stirling to Glasgow. Train composition was generally around 6-7 coaches, 210 to 265 tons full, but could get up to 8 packed coaches in summer."

 

Taken with due acknowledgements, from this superb resource:

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page71.htm

Outstanding Sir!

 

Thank you, that's a huge help. I'm supposing, that there may have been other A4 hauled trains that weren't timed to 3Hrs, which would explain the 10pm departure from Glasgow.

[pH]

The 13.30 from Aberdeen was only a semi-fast (about 4 hours to Glasgow). I believe the engine off this train went back on the late evening train from Glasgow.

[pH]

Do you know that there were also two A3s transferred to St Rollox for these trains? 60090/94 came from St Margaret's in 1962, but were withdrawn in 1963 and 1964.

[scottystitch]

Do you know that there were also two A3s transferred to St Rollox for these trains? 60090/94 came from St Margaret's in 1962, but were withdrawn in 1963 and 1964.

Hi thanks for the reply.

 

I did know about the A3s at St Rollox, but the information I have is that they were very rare performers on the Aberdeen-Glasgow 3hr service, which was almost exclusively A4 with a smattering of A2s. Some A4s were regulars on the Glasgow - Dundee run, and I think the A3s appeared on this service as well. Happy to be corrected however.

[clecklewyke]

This was the last "grand hurrah" of the A4s in real service, and what a way to go!

 

Our curate (St Martin's, Hull), one David Benson, well known as an excellent railway photographer, had just got married and he and his new wife, Margaret, went off to Scotland for their honeymoon, camping beside the main line at Bridge of Allan in atrocious weather, so he could record the A4s on his Rolliflex. He got some superb photos and I believe their marriage survived...

 

I remember spending a day at Gleneagles in my first year at Edinburgh University, waiting for an A4 on a three hour express. Unfortunately it was dark before we saw one, so no possibility of a photo that day. There was also an A4 at Larbert on the return journey, filthy, leaking steam from all orifices, waiting for the board on an up parcels train. I forget which A4 it was but it was the last I ever saw in active service. This would have been in autumn 1965 0r spring 1966.

 

A lump comes into my throat as I write this.

 

Ian

[scotcent]

Another  regular  A4  working  was  the  Postal  from  Carstairs  to  Aberdeen.  At  Stirling  it  was  joined  by  coach(es)  and  vans  off  the  04.00  ex  Glasgow  Central,  and  the  whole  entourage  arrived  in  Aberdeen  about  08.14.  Although  the  overall  timing  was  quite  slow  there  was  a  lot  of  shunting  at  Stirling  and  at  Perth;  the  running  up  the  Strathmore  line  could  be  quite  brisk,  and  there  was  a  mail  apparatus  at  Coupar  Angus  to  add  to  the  excitement.  I  travelled  quite  frequently  on  this  train  around  1963.  If  the  main  train  was  late  from  the  South  a  Black  5  (usually)  would  take  the  Glasgow  portion  alone  to  Aberdeen,  and  could  get  quite  brisk  with  this  featherweight  train.  The  southbound  Postal  left  Aberdeen  about  1530,  and  I  always  assumed  the  A4  got  to  Carstairs  on  this  train,  which  carried  no  passengers  beyond  Perth.

 

I  think  special  attention  was  given  to  the  running  of  these  trains,  which  were  rarely  late  in  my  experience.  The  A4's  did  often  appear  on  lesser  trains  as  well,  when  there  were  plenty  of  them.  I  seem  to  remember  that  engines  were  often  changed  at  Perth.  My  last  trip  was  in  September  1966  behind  60019  "Bittern",  the  official  last  steam  run  in  Scotland,  and  I  remember  putting  all  my  notebooks  away  afterwards -- this  was  THE  END  for  me!

 

I've  attached  a  picture  of  the  scene  on  arrival  at  Aberdeen  --  imagine  that  now!

 

[scottystitch]

would anyone have example coach formations for this train? I'm aware it was usually 7 or 8 coaches but the photographs I have aren't too clear on what coaches made up the train.

[64B]

would anyone have example coach formations for this train? I'm aware it was usually 7 or 8 coaches but the photographs I have aren't too clear on what coaches made up the train.

The Eddie Stanbridge DVD collection - Scottish Steam: The A4 Final Years covers this subject very well. This DVD shows the many typical train formations covering this period. It is a great DVD.

[airighdrishaig]

The book Scottish Steam in Colour by Hugh Ballantyne (Jane's Transport press 1987) has seven photos of these trains several of which give a good idea of the 7 coach formation .

 

I remember seeing a green A4 at Buchanan St about 1964. It confounded my theory that all real steam engines were black.

[sulzer27jd]

Scotty I cannot see it mentioned elsewhere but Memories of Steam from Glasgow to Aberdeen by Michael Welsh is essential reading for you. ISBN-13: 978-1870754378

 

I actually find this period a bit frustrating because it gets so much attention whilst the earlier working over the Strathmore route get next to nothing. You can count on one hand the photos taken on what should have been a popular route and one that despite being Caledonian in origin had big ex LNER power almost from the start of nationalisation. Dundee crews would work Dundee to Aberdeen to Perth and back to Dundee and that started early into BR days. Anyway I wish you luck with your project. 

 

John

[keefer]

would anyone have example coach formations for this train? I'm aware it was usually 7 or 8 coaches but the photographs I have aren't too clear on what coaches made up the train.

Courtesy Robert Carroll's LHCS Yahoo group, 9/64 - 6/65:

(from abdn)

BSK FK RB SK SK BSK

BSK FK RU TSO SK SK BSK

these two sets seem to be pretty constant, likely being kept for these services

 

there are also others like

BSK FK RMB SK SK BSK

BSK FK RU SK SK SK BSK

which might also have additional coaches on certain days

 

These don't have a directly equivalent return working so were possibly re-marshalled as required

 

EDIT: forgot to add, these trains are specified as 'class Z stock' i.e. BR standard Mark 1 stock and 'must not exceed 275 tons'

Edited January 10, 2014 by keefer

[scottystitch]

Scotty I cannot see it mentioned elsewhere but Memories of Steam from Glasgow to Aberdeen by Michael Welsh is essential reading for you. ISBN-13: 978-1870754378[/size]

 

I actually find this period a bit frustrating because it gets so much attention whilst the earlier working over the Strathmore route get next to nothing. You can count on one hand the photos taken on what should have been a popular route and one that despite being Caledonian in origin had big ex LNER power almost from the start of nationalisation. Dundee crews would work Dundee to Aberdeen to Perth and back to Dundee and that started early into BR days. Anyway I wish you luck with your project. 

 

John

Thanks John, I've ordered a new copy of that book from ebay today.

 

I also have tentative plans to build a model of Alyth Junction during the same period, possibly for exhibition purposes, which would use the same stock as my garage layout, but that's a looooooong time in the future.

 

Scotty

[scottystitch]

Courtesy Robert Carroll's LHCS Yahoo group, 9/64 - 6/65:

(from abdn)

BSK FK RB SK SK BSK

BSK FK RU TSO SK SK BSK

these two sets seem to be pretty constant, likely being kept for these services

there are also others like

BSK FK RMB SK SK BSK

BSK FK RU SK SK SK BSK

which might also have additional coaches on certain days

These don't have a directly equivalent return working so were possibly re-marshalled as required

EDIT: forgot to add, these trains are specified as 'class Z stock' i.e. BR standard Mark 1 stock and 'must not exceed 275 tons'

Thanks Keefer,

 

I've since received a 1964 winter train marshalling document which generally agrees with what you say.

 

Scotty

[jonny777]

There is also some excellent footage of the 3hr expresses on this dvd -

 

http://www.transportdiversions.com/publicationshow.asp?pubid=8111

 

No doubt available from many other stockists, but that was the first link to appear.

 

.... and also some of these dvds would include relevant footage -

 

http://railwayrecollections.com/products-page/railway-recollections-guest-dvds-cinerail-railways-of-scotland/

Edited January 10, 2014 by jonny777

[scottystitch]

There is also some excellent footage of the 3hr expresses on this dvd -

 

http://www.transportdiversions.com/publicationshow.asp?pubid=8111

 

No doubt available from many other stockists, but that was the first link to appear.

 

.... and also some of these dvds would include relevant footage -

 

http://railwayrecollections.com/products-page/railway-recollections-guest-dvds-cinerail-railways-of-scotland/

Thanks Jonny

 

I have the first one and also have the Perth-Kinnaber in the second Link but will no doubt try and complete the series.

[Poor Old Bruce]

The last three A2s (60528/30/32) were allocated to Dundee and some at least were seen on the Aberdeen Glasgows.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I did a Google search on Buchanan St recently and found a very good series of photos of Aberdeen-Glasgow trains: mostly A4 but also 60532 and a Caprotti Black 5.

[JohnR]

Another  regular  A4  working  was  the  Postal  from  Carstairs  to  Aberdeen.  At  Stirling  it  was  joined  by  coach(es)  and  vans  off  the  04.00  ex  Glasgow  Central,  and  the  whole  entourage  arrived  in  Aberdeen  about  08.14.  Although  the  overall  timing  was  quite  slow  there  was  a  lot  of  shunting  at  Stirling  and  at  Perth;  the  running  up  the  Strathmore  line  could  be  quite  brisk,  and  there  was  a  mail  apparatus  at  Coupar  Angus  to  add  to  the  excitement.  I  travelled  quite  frequently  on  this  train  around  1963.  If  the  main  train  was  late  from  the  South  a  Black  5  (usually)  would  take  the  Glasgow  portion  alone  to  Aberdeen,  and  could  get  quite  brisk  with  this  featherweight  train.  The  southbound  Postal  left  Aberdeen  about  1530,  and  I  always  assumed  the  A4  got  to  Carstairs  on  this  train,  which  carried  no  passengers  beyond  Perth.

 

 

 

Where else on the line would there have been mail apparatus? I've heard there was some at Laurencekirk. Would this have been in both directions?

[keefer]

Thanks Keefer,

I've since received a 1964 winter train marshalling document which generally agrees with what you say.

Scotty

It was the passenger train marshalling book 9/64 - 6/65 that I quoted from!

There was a message on the Yahoo group recently from someone who was involved on the coaching stock side at the time, he said he tried to keep his best CW bogied mk1s for these trains.

There must've been a fair bit of pre-nat stock still around, for these trains to be specced for mk1s.

Edited January 10, 2014 by keefer

['CHARD]

The last three A2s (60528/30/32) were allocated to Dundee and some at least were seen on the Aberdeen Glasgows.

 

I'm 97% sure I've seen footage of all three at work on the Three Hour jobs.  Likewise, Modern Railways gives loads of workings for the surviving trio and I'm confident that data backs it up.

[scottystitch]

It was the passenger train marshalling book 9/64 - 6/65 that I quoted from!

There was a message on the Yahoo group recently from someone who was involved on the coaching stock side at the time, he said he tried to keep his best CW bogied mk1s for these trains.

There must've been a fair bit of pre-nat stock still around, for these trains to be specced for mk1s.

Ah my apologies, I should have twigged when it's the same source I got it from!