Aberdeen/Glasgow 3hr Expresses - early to mid sixties.

[keefer]

Chi Trevor on Flickr has some A4 pics from June '66 starting here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/trevs_trains/2892567495/in/set-72157602197746115

[sulzer27jd]

Thanks John, I've ordered a new copy of that book from ebay today.

 

I also have tentative plans to build a model of Alyth Junction during the same period, possibly for exhibition purposes, which would use the same stock as my garage layout, but that's a looooooong time in the future.

 

Scotty

 

Now that is something i would look forward to seeing. That is a fascinating station with some unusual movements involved. 

[pH]

The last three A2s (60528/30/32) were allocated to Dundee and some at least were seen on the Aberdeen Glasgows.

 

 

I'm 97% sure I've seen footage of all three at work on the Three Hour jobs.  Likewise, Modern Railways gives loads of workings for the surviving trio and I'm confident that data backs it up.

 

I'm not saying that isn't the case, 'Chard, but I can't remember seeing an A2 on a 3-hour train. Remember, not all Aberdeen-Glasgows were 3-hour trains - the 13:30 took about 4 hours. That one definitely had a mix of A4s and A2s in the last years. Can you point to the Modern Railways information, or do you have that in paper form?

 

Having said that, I had seen all the remaining A4s and A2s by the middle of summer 1964, so going up to Buchanan Street wasn't high priority, and I didn't do it often. Changed days from when the A4s started there. There used to be the 3-hour 17:30 off Buchanan Street, and also a 17:30 off St. Enoch's to Carlisle which usually had a Polmadie Duchess, but sometimes a big ex-LMS engine from Kingmoor. Then the Brits started to come to KIngmoor and they could appear on that train! About 17:15 on a Saturday, there would be a large group out on the end of the platform at Buchanan Street, straining to see the number of the A4 backing down from St. Rollox. Once that was confirmed, there was a mad dash out of the station, down Buchanan Street (certainly not pedestrianized in those days, and at 17:20 on a Saturday evening, somewhat crowded!), up the ramp to St. Enoch's, then someone would have to buy a platform ticket and run out to the end of the platform to get the number of the engine on the Carlisle and report it back to the waiting throng!      

 

OT, but I remember during one of those dashes, seeing a Central SMT bus turn tightly from Buchanan Street into West George Street and bend the toes of a pair of winklepickers whose 'cool' owner was standing right on the edge of the pavement on the corner. How we all laughed as we ran off!

['CHARD]

Oh crivvens (and indeed jings and help m'Boab) - I may have got the trio mixed up with precisely that slower working.

 

I'm going off paper copies that I researched in 2009/ 2010 for Waverley purposes, which actually had the effect of switching me on to the Strathmore.  However, you're probably spot on, and I could well be mixing the A2s' appearances with the slower service.  I'll dig them (the MRs) out when I get to that point in clearing the man-garage.  

 

I do recall the sequential trio of even numbered A2s getting plenty of attention.  Maybe not quite their every working, but certainly their devotees were thorough in their reporting of the locos, which really resonated (and still resonates) with me.  

 

EDIT:  a quick Google search has pulled summer '66 images of 60528 and 60532 at Buchanan Street and/ or Perth/ Stirling but all seem to tally with an afternoon working, which may be the slow train.  More research needed.

Edited January 10, 2014 by 'CHARD

[keefer]

Where else on the line would there have been mail apparatus? I've heard there was some at Laurencekirk. Would this have been in both directions?

Doesn't help with the Strathmore line as such, but 1969 ScR Sec.app. has 'mail bag apparatus' at carmuirs West jn., blackford, laurencekirk and stonehaven - all on the up ( presumably s/bound?) side

 

Incidentally, the 13.30 ab-glas in the winter '64 PTM book mentioned is shown as basically a 3-hour set with extra vehicles:

 

BSK FK RMB 2*SK, SK (Fridays only), BSK BG, XFISH (Saturdays excepted)

 

The XFISH is noted as a 6-wheel van, most of the faster services are noted as N.F.W. (no 4-whl vehicles with w/b less than 15ft)

 

Similarly, the 9.30 is shown as:

 

BSK FK RU 3*SK BSK BG PMV(MX) XFISH(SX)

On this, the fish van is for Bristol and is detached at Stirling, going forward on a Euston service

 

Actually, I'm assuming they mean XFISH (6-whl) and not just FISH (4-whl) as there doesn't seem to be any other meaning for the 'X' as listed

Edited January 10, 2014 by keefer

[scottystitch]

For the record, for December 1964 I have the following:

 

Aberdeen - Glasgow 07:10, 13:30

 

Glasgow - Aberdeen 08:25, 10:00, 17:30

I also have a 22:00 departure from Glasgow, this is remarked as an overnight train but by all accounts was still A4 hauled so I'm not sure if this counts.

Thanks to sources here and on a BR Coaching forum, i now have it confirmed that there were only two trains in each direction timed at 3 hrs:

 

Ex Aberdeen 07:15 and 17:15

Ex Glasgow 08:25 and 17:30

 

And I have confirmation of usual formations.

 

Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion!

[clecklewyke]

 

Thanks to sources here and on a BR Coaching forum, i now have it confirmed that there were only two trains in each direction timed at 3 hrs:

Ex Aberdeen 07:15 and 17:15
Ex Glasgow 08:25 and 17:30

And I have confirmation of usual formations.

Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion!

 

Just for interest I checked the current timetable and there are now services every hour from 6.33 to 20.42 taking less than three hours - typically 2hrs 33min - 2hrs 42min.

 

They are not strictly "clockface", Chris Green's revolutionary Scotrail regular interval timetable (his"Taktfharplan" (sp?)) has lost a little of its gloss, but they leave Aberdeen between 30 min and 40 min past the hour.

 

How many A4s would you need to run that? 

 

Impressive, yes?

 

Ian

 

[scottystitch]

 

Just for interest I checked the current timetable and there are now services every hour from 6.33 to 20.42 taking less than three hours - typically 2hrs 33min - 2hrs 42min.

 

They are not strictly "clockface", Chris Green's revolutionary Scotrail regular interval timetable (his"Taktfharplan" (sp?)) has lost a little of its gloss, but they leave Aberdeen between 30 min and 40 min past the hour.

 

How many A4s would you need to run that?

 

Impressive, yes?

 

Ian

Not bad going considering they take the slower route along the coast, stopping at Dundee, Arbroath and Montrose and Stonehaven along the way (sometimes other stops as well).

 

Via Strathmore, there was only a Forfar stop and a Stonehaven stop north of Perth.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not bad going considering they take the slower route along the coast, stopping at Dundee, Arbroath and Montrose and Stonehaven along the way (sometimes other stops as well).

 

Via Strathmore, there was only a Forfar stop and a Stonehaven stop north of Perth.

 

As much as we all miss much about the great era that was steam-powered railways, it is good to recognise the much more frequent and usually faster services which are now provided across much of the UK rail network.

[Graham R]

Where else on the line would there have been mail apparatus? I've heard there was some at Laurencekirk. Would this have been in both directions?

 

Taking Motherwell as a limit, the 1960 sectional appendix lists Down mail apparatus at Coatbridge Junction, Carmuirs West Junction*, Larbert Junction, Gleneagles*, Cupar (sic) Angus South, Alyth Junction, Forfar South Junction, Bridge of Dun*, Dubton North*, Laurencekirk* and Stonehaven*. Only the ones with an asterisk had Up apparatus.

 

The LMS 1937 appendix only lists the apparatus used at night, mostly in the Up direction: Dunning, Forfar and Laurencekirk had Down standards, and Stonehaven, Fordoun, Laurencekirk, Dubton, Bridge of Dun, Gleneagles, Blackford, Dunblane, Larbert, Coatbridge and Carluke Up. I wonder if the traffic pattern was different, or the Down train simply always ran in daylight.

[scotcent]

According  to  my  1957  timetable  the  down  train  arrived  in  Aberdeen  at  0805  having  called  only  at  Stirling,  Perth  and  Stonehaven -- not  much  daylight  in  the  wintertime!  The  up  train  left  Aberdeen  at  1530  and  called  at  Forfar  and  Perth;  from  Perth  it  ran  as  mail  only. 

 

Incidentally,  does  anyone  know  how  the  Postal  vehicles  were  turned  at  Aberdeen?  No  triangles  about  there  as  far  as  I  know.

 

Allan  F

[sulzer27jd]

According  to  my  1957  timetable  the  down  train  arrived  in  Aberdeen  at  0805  having  called  only  at  Stirling,  Perth  and  Stonehaven -- not  much  daylight  in  the  wintertime!  The  up  train  left  Aberdeen  at  1530  and  called  at  Forfar  and  Perth;  from  Perth  it  ran  as  mail  only. 

 

Incidentally,  does  anyone  know  how  the  Postal  vehicles  were  turned  at  Aberdeen?  No  triangles  about  there  as  far  as  I  know.

 

Allan  F

 

They were turned on the turntable at Kittybrewster, part of which involved a substantial reversing move between the shed and the station.

[scotcent]

Thanks  for  that.  That  shunt  must  have  kept  the  pilot  busy  for  a  while!

 

Allan  F

[pH]

They were turned on the turntable at Kittybrewster, part of which involved a substantial reversing move between the shed and the station.

See here: http://www.gnsra.org.uk/gnsra_gallery_locomotives27.htm

 

(Edit to include better link)

Edited January 18, 2014 by pH

[clecklewyke]

Were not at least some of these services named trains? I seem to remember "Bon Accord" and maybe "Granite City". Or am I confusing these with something else?

 

Ian

[clecklewyke]

Should always try Google first!

 

Yes, they were named - see Wikip

[clecklewyke]

Were not at least some of these services named trains? I seem to remember "Bon Accord" and maybe "Granite City". Or am I confusing these with something else?

 

Ian

 

Yes they were! (I should have Googled first...)

 

See this Wikipedia page

 

Ian

[Waverley47708]

Having watched Eddie Stanbridge video repeatedly my interest in this service has been aroused. I was recently given a copy of the 18 June to 9 September 1962 timetable, as a result I had a look for the 3 hour services.

 

Heading North. (Table 32).

 

First one I can find is 8 25 Glasgow Buchanan Street, 9 1 arr Stirling 9 3 dep, 9 39 arr Perth 9 44 dep, Forfar 1016, Aberdeen 1125. The Grampian, the notes tell us Minature Buffet.

 

There is no 1000 dep in the 1962 timetable, however The Granite City is listed dep Glasgow at 1015, does not stop at Stirling, 1133 arr Perth dep 1139, Coupar Angus 12 0, Forfar 12 25 and Aberdeen 1 45. I am assuming the times given for Alyth Jn, Bridge of Dun, Laurencekirk and Stonehaven which unlike the above are not in bold are for connecting services. Notes indicate a Restaurant Car (as opposed to Miniature Buffet or Buffet Car). I am assuming at 3 hrs 15 this is not considered a 3 hrs express. Interesting it did not stop at Stirling which had a separate arr and dep time for The Grampian but stopped at Coupar Angus yet took 15 minutes longer.

 

The Bon Accord dep Glasgow at 1215 (Saturdays) was the next one I thought was one, but again took more than 3 hours. Arr 1256 Stirling dep 1 0, arr 1 38 Perth dep 1 44, 2 20 Forfar, Aberdeen 3 31. Times not in bold for Stonehaven 3 10. Restaurant Buffet. Again over 3 hours.

 

The Except Saturdays, 2 5 dep Glasgow, The Bon Accord took 3 hrs 32. Falkirk Grahamston 2 17, Non bold times given for Larbert both for arr. and dep (not sure my earlier assumption 're connecting services is correct). Bold times arr 2 49 Stirling dep 2 52, 3 15 Gleneagles, arr 3 53 Perth dep 3 41, Coupar Angus 4 1, Forfar 4 23, Aberdeen 5 37. With non bold times given for all stations between Coupar Angus and Aberdeen, (except Forfar).

 

A "proper 3 hour express listed as The St Mungo, dep Glasgow 5 30 pm, 6 6 arr Stirling dep 6 8, arr 6 45 Perth dep 6 50, Forfar 7 22, non bold Stonehaven 8 7, bold Aberdeen 8 30. Restaurant Car.

 

There is an unnamed service dep Glasgow 7 30 pm, non bold Falkirk arr 8 2, dep 8 3, bold Stirling arr 8 14, dep 8 17. Perth arr 8 57, dep 9 3, Coupar Angus 9 23, Forfar 9 43, non bold Laurencekirk 1016 and Stonehaven 1034, Aberdeen 1055. Close but not close enough??. No reference to any Restaurant or Buffet on this one.

 

Sunday shows a couple of 4 hour services but no 3 hour services.

 

Will look at Southbound another night.

[pH]

Having watched Eddie Stanbridge video repeatedly my interest in this service has been aroused. I was recently given a copy of the 18 June to 9 September 1962 timetable, as a result I had a look for the 3 hour services.

 

 

See post#32 above for the times of the three hour trains. 

[60159]

A question to throw into the mix -

 

Many photographs of Perth shed in the mid sixties show several A4s in steam usually facing in the "down" direction. These A4s include some of those transferred north ostensibly for the 3 hour Glasgow/Aberdeen expresses via the Strathmore line such as 60019, 60026 and 60034 as well as the long established Scottish A4s such as 60009, 60024 and 60031. How did they get there or why were they there - I maybe should know but I can't recall.

[Bill Jamieson]

Apologies if the link below has already appeared somewhere on this site. Despite the title, most of the action ia actually between Aberdeen and Stonehaven. I presume the mail pick-up near the start of the video is at the latter, just south of the station - I once saw this live here in 1957 or '58 (at age 7 or 8) on the annual family holiday, and even after almost 60 years the location still seems vaguely familiar.

 

Bill

 

http://player.bfi.org.uk/film/watch-great-north-of-scotland-railway-films-1963/

[Caley Jim]

One working I forgot to mention in my previous post (#47) was that there was an afternoon fish working from Aberdeen to Perth often double headed and sometimes with an A4 and Black 5 or A4 and NBL Type 2. I believe that, on arrival in Perth, the train was split up to serve several English destinations via the West Coast Main Line.

In the early to mid 60's there was a fish train came through Greenfoot around 18:30,just behind the West Coast Postal, usually hauled by a V2. The Postal often had an A2. IIRC

 

Jim

[Bill Jamieson]

Fascinating!  Was that a Coronation Articulated Restaurant Twin behind ex P2 rebuild 60502 with tender still lettered LNER?

 

 

One working I forgot to mention in my previous post (#47) was that there was an afternoon fish working from Aberdeen to Perth often double headed and sometimes with an A4 and Black 5 or A4 and NBL Type 2.  I believe that, on arrival in Perth, the train was split up to serve several English destinations via the West Coast Main Line. 

 

 

The October 2010 edition of Steam Days magazine has a long article entiltled Fish Traffic from North-East Scotland and it has the following to say about the above working in 1963:- The next train from Aberdeen was the 2.15pm for Carstairs, which conveyed traffic mainly for Manchester and Birmingham. Still worked in 1963 by steam, this arrived at Carstairs at 6.42pm. Here it was formed into the 8.0pm to Birmingham (Curzon Street) and the 8.10pm for Manchester (Oldham Road). The 8.0pm working only stopped at Carlisle before detaching traffic at Warrington, Crewe, Stafford and also Wolverhampton, reaching Curzon Street at 4.03am. The second train detached traffic at Preston, including a Liverpool section, and Wigan before reaching its destination at 2.55 am.

 

This will be the same working as appears in many WJV Anderson shots and is described as the 4.45pm from Perth, where locos were changed, with a Kingmoor class 6P or 7P loco (or a Princess in the early '60s) taking over.

 

Bill

 

PS The same article includes a photo of a double-headed fish train south of Aberdeen and although not identified is probably the above train - motive power was an A4 piloted by a 65B Caprotti Standard Class 5.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Bill Jamieson

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

Interesting to see the bit with the A2 in LNER livery.  Amongst the papers I found when clearing out the former family home were piles of letters. My Father had written to my Mother while he was away during the war and I did not read these but there was a bundle addressed to her and me which he must have written when away on a peacetime Auxiliary Air Force trip so I did read these .  The first included " Tell the boy (me) that it was the same big green engine, Earl Marischal that took us to Edinburgh"   So I can infer from that that at some time earlier we must have travelled behind this, with me being taken forward to "see the engine" when we stopped. This was 1949 .   Later in the series of letters he said to my Mother that he had bought me a small Meccano set. (presents on his return from a trip became a feature of my childhood)   So it seems that I must have expressed an interest in Railways at an early age and was destined to become an engineer......

The ex Coronation set (sets?) were used regularly on the Edinburgh Aberdeen the artic twin was a Kitchen open third/brake open third and this provided the catering for these trains.  They were of course re painted in BR crimson/cream and I am fairly sure that I saw them in maroon in the early 60s.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian  .

Edited August 8, 2016 by Ian Kirk

[Waverley47708]

A couple of interesting articles on the subject. Makes for some interesting reading.

 

http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/regions/regions4.shtml

 

And

 

http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/regions/regionsC.shtml

 

 

There seems to be a bit of a theme here with them departing late, and then heroically making up time with some fast runs.

 

Can anyone confirm the maximum speed limit in Scotland at the time being 75 mph. I ask as I am in the process of working out scale speeds for our mid 60s style Laurencekirk layout.

 

I have now got a 7 coach 3 hour express set which I am hoping to run on Laurencekirk at our show this June behind No 9.