Cwm Bach - A South Wales Branch Line

[Simond]

Chris,

 

Happy New Year!

 

This is very interesting. I have been an aficionado of DCC since approximately 1999, and have progressed through various decoder solutions to a point where most of my fleet have sound, and I have enough control gear for my hoped-for layout developments. Also, I’m not in the least worried about wiring layouts, indeed, I quite enjoy it, both the design challenges, and the physical installation.

 

That said, if this kind of solution had been available 20 years ago, I think I’d have chosen it. The savings in time, effort & money would almost certainly pay for the equipment needed, and some, I guess, and the flexibility is a huge step forward.

 

When it’s possible to purchase a BPRC installation that uses the decoders in which I’ve already invested, I may be convinced to take the plunge.

 

Best

Simon

[81A Oldoak]

Here is the video clip. The greatest appeal to me is the trouble-free running, especially at slow speeds.

 

[bgman]

Thanks for that Chris, very appealing I must say.

 

On a lighter note, it does make me think of one running through a certain Cotswold street in the dark, now there's an idea for an O Gauge diorama! Minerva Thunderbolt

 

Grahame

[Regularity]

When it’s possible to purchase a BPRC installation that uses the decoders in which I’ve already invested, I may be convinced to take the plunge.

 

Simon,

 

You can already do this, with the Tam Valley DRS system (http://deadrailinstalls.com/tam-valley-information/) available from Digitrains and Coastal DCC. You need one transmitter, clipped across the DCC output, and one receiver per engine. Plus you would need to source some reliable batteries, charging circuits, etc, if you wanted battery power. None of these items are particularly expensive, and some of the 18650 (18mm diameter x 65mm long) lipo cells packed quite a bit of power, so you could install one of those in an 0 gauge boiler, and use a step-up circuit to get roughly 11-12 volts out of it, at a cost of running time from the battery. (Allowing for energy losses, you would get say 1,000mAH out of a nominal 4,000mAH cell. And yes, I know that 1,000mAH is 1AH.)

 

If someone produced something similar which had a single board, with a standard DCC plug at one end, and socket at the other, and with connections to a cell, which included a WiFi transceiver, charging circuit, step-up circuit, and DCC translator from WiFi to DCC, along with a simple transceiver for the DCC output, then I think this single-board solution would sell really well, as one could use any existing DCC system, but no longer have to worry about boosters, wiring, reversing loops, safety cut-outs, power districts etc.

 

I wish I knew more about electronics and circuit design...

 

Here is the video clip. The greatest appeal to me is the trouble-free running, especially at slow speeds.

 

That’s a really neat and compact solution you have there, Chris. What battery unit is fitted?

 

Having both observed and controlled on-board powered models, the way that they keep moving without even the slightest hesitation is eerily smooth, and really does give the impression of true power in a way that frankly every other solution, even DCC with keep alive/stay alive circuits don’t quite manage. I have no idea why this is the case, but to me it is as big a step forward as when I first drove a DCC engine, and my mind had instantly changed focus from driving the train on the track to driving the train according to where the track was going to take me. (To anyone who has never tried ought but straight DC, you have no idea what you are missing.)

Edited January 6, 2018 by Regularity

[81A Oldoak]

Simon,

 

You can already do this, with the Tam Valley DRS system (http://deadrailinstalls.com/tam-valley-information/) available from Digitrains and Coastal DCC. You need one transmitter, clipped across the DCC output, and one receiver per engine. Plus you would need to source some reliable batteries, charging circuits, etc, if you wanted battery power. None of these items are particularly expensive, and some of the 18650 (18mm diameter x 65mm long) lipo cells packed quite a bit of power, so you could install one of those in an 0 gauge boiler, and use a step-up circuit to get roughly 11-12 volts out of it, at a cost of running time from the battery. (Allowing for energy losses, you would get say 1,000mAH out of a nominal 4,000mAH cell. And yes, I know that 1,000mAH is 1AH.)

 

If someone produced something similar which had a single board, with a standard DCC plug at one end, and socket at the other, and with connections to a cell, which included a WiFi transceiver, charging circuit, step-up circuit, and DCC translator from WiFi to DCC, along with a simple transceiver for the DCC output, then I think this single-board solution would sell really well, as one could use any existing DCC system, but no longer have to worry about boosters, wiring, reversing loops, safety cut-outs, power districts etc.

 

I wish I knew more about electronics and circuit design...

 

That’s a really neat and compact solution you have there, Chris. What battery unit is fitted?

 

Having both observed and controlled on-board powered models, the way that they keep moving without even the slightest hesitation is eerily smooth, and really does give the impression of true power in a way that frankly every other solution, even DCC with keep alive/stay alive circuits don’t quite manage. I have no idea why this is the case, but to me it is as big a step forward as when I first drove a DCC engine, and my mind had instantly changed focus from driving the train on the track to driving the train according to where the track was going to take me. (To anyone who has never tried ought but straight DC, you have no idea what you are missing.)

The battery was supplied by Protocaab. Details are on the website and the loco is fitted with the 820mAh version. This more than adequate for Ixion and Minerva locos, which rarely draw from than 350mA. I know Protocab are aiming to proovide solutions for more power hungry motors. Details of the motor are on the Protocab website  https://www.protocab.com/shop#!/Batteries/c/26879743/offset=0&sort=nameAsc

 

I also have some Tam Valley Depot equipment that claims to allow trackless control of DCC. Unfortunately, I've been unable to source suitable batteries and the instructions state that three lithium batteries are required, which rules out an elegant, compact installation like the Protocab in the Pannier. As for "Stay-Alive" units in track-controlled DCC, well that just about sums up the argument for trackless control.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[Regularity]

The battery was supplied by Protocaab. Details are on the website and the loco is fitted with the 820mAh version. This more than adequate for Ixion and Minerva locos, which rarely draw from than 350mA. I know Protocab are aiming to proovide solutions for more power hungry motors. Details of the motor are on the Protocab website.

 

Guess what? After asking, I went and looked at the video, and saw which battery it was.

That suggests you should get about 2.5 hours of running at maximum current draw, which is very impressive.

I also have some Tam Valley Depot equipment that claims to allow trackless control of DCC. Unfortunately, I've been unable to source suitable batteries and the instructions state that three lithium batteries are required, which rules out an elegant, compact installation like the Protocab in the Pannier.

 

As I said, there are other solutions, such as DC-DC converters, which allow for the use of a single cell (makes charging simpler) but they only offer part of the solution - mind you, if they offered a full solution, then who would buy their other products?

The reason for the increased voltage requirement is that DCC needs a minimum of 7 volts without sound, and 8 volts with (based on reviews of sound and silent models running on DC) and with a nominal 3.7v per lithium cell, 3 cells are required to get safely over this hurdle - or a step-up circuit with associated power losses.

As for "Stay-Alive" units in track-controlled DCC, well that just about sums up the argument for trackless control.

 

I agree, but a friend who has fitted these things to all his locos argues that this is precisely why he needn’t consider wireless BPRC! Edited January 6, 2018 by Regularity

[Regularity]

I have 3 issues with ProtoCab, after initially thinking it might be the bees-knees.

1) It is taking a long time to come to market, and the simpler starter system has delayed production of the original idea with the concentrator, which was supposed to come out in 2013; this is linked to

2) It is very much a small family business. Development is slow, and there is a massive risk of unsupported obsolescence due to “key person risk”;

2) I can’t use it to drive my existing DCC sound unit-fitted locos.

 

On the first point, I am slow to progress so maybe not a major problem, but I was looking forward to their bring a software solution enabling me to use a cheap tablet or laptop as both network provider and concentrator, with the expenditure being on the loco components and controllers (I don’t personally like phone-based throttles). But this really focuses the mind on point 2.

 

Second point. What are the business continuity arrangements/long term viability of the company? I realise that some of this would be confidential, but I am not the first person to raise this concern. I really buy into their concept, and really want to support small British industries, but at the same time I don’t want to spend hundreds of pounds on a non-proprietorial system that ends up being thrown in the bin. Which brings me to point 3...

 

Third point. Aside from the cost investment, there is a great variety of digitally recorded sound available for DCC. Tony has told me at various shows that sounds could be stored on the concentrator and broadcast directly to an on-board speaker, which would be wonderful, but when will get this (see points 1 and 2) when will I have access to the variety of sound projects currently available? Will ProtoCab engage in licensing arrangements with various people and companies?

 

To bring those points together, ultimately I think we will see a simple to fit solution which includes sound, etc, but also has sophisticated capabilities so that there is a combination of sound recordings, back-emf and user-defined parameters (I.e. we enter information about the train load, just as a guard would inform the driver - “18 vehicles with a load equal to 24, 4 fitted at the head”, with the driver aware of the power output of his steed, e.g 4F, C, “type 2”) so that there is simulation of the effects of inertia and gravity, with increasing time for acceleration and braking and slowing down on gradients and curves, just as on the real thing, with the exhaust sound being part of the reaction to these effects. All powered on-board and controlled remotely - hopefully via a central command system to (a) keep information about engines and their settings; and (b) prevent chaos.

 

To a large degree, DCC is already there, but the protocols are based on 1980s technology and physically doing it requires shopping around and an element of dedicated DiY.

 

There is a great opportunity for the right alternative, should it appear.

 

The question is, is that alternative going to be ProtoCab? I hope so, but...

 

Sorry: I am going a bit OT here.

[Simond]

It’s a wee while since I looked, but the only solution I found that was DCC compatible required use of a specific decoder family (TCS IIRC?) and my investment is already in Zimo and ESU decoders. It needs to be plug & play with 8-pin and/or 21-pin decoders to take off, IMO.

 

I guess what it needs is another Bernd Lenz, to say, ok, I’m going to make this happen, and to simply do it.

 

Best

Simon

[Regularity]

Hi Simon,

 

You may be confusing this with Stanton S-Cab, which is available off-the-shelf to North Americans and Antipodeans with Soundtraxx decoders. Tam Valley is device agnostic, but as you say, is not a single board with 8-pin or 21-pin sockets and plugs.

 

It doesn’t even require another Bernd Lenz: no protocol needs developing, just a circuit board to be placed between socket on the engine, and plug on the decoder.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Regularity

[0_gauge_novice]

Hi Chris,

 

this looks very promising system and I would also consider it for my 0 gauge stuff.....the problem that Protocab has is that they do not ship outside the UK. Its a pitty that the UK has so many absurd health and safety regulations that obstruct almost every part of life....

 

Cheers

Andreas

[Regularity]

It is more likely to be related to WiFi approval.

If it used radio waves in the gsm band, then all they would need to do is use a different ic to generate the signal, and approval would not be required.

 

Unfortunately, there is as yet no agreed conformance standards for WiFi, and to ship to Oz, ProtoCab would need to be tested and approved by your national agency responsible for such things. This is not cheap.

 

I am having the same issue with the rather nice diesel throttle being developed in the USA: it is simply too expensive to get conformity testing for Europe when balanced against likely sales, so it may not be available here.

 

This is why trade negotiations are so important, and so complicated: if country A has more stringent requirements than country B, it will not permit items from country B to be imported. In retaliation, country B may simply say, “Until we have an agreement, your stuff can’t come here either.”

 

I doubt if this is directly a case of U.K. H&S being obstructive (although that may be part of it - we do go a bit bonkers at times) but simply the cost of conformance approval.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Regularity

[0_gauge_novice]

 

I doubt if this is directly a case of U.K. H&S being obstructive (although that may be part of it - we do go a bit bonkers at times) but simply the cost of conformance approval

 

Actually the site states that no batteries can be shipped as a standa alone with RM....

[Regularity]

Actually the site states that no batteries can be shipped as a standa alone with RM....

That’s international in scope: no one wants these things in their normal parcels and mail services. Shipping by sea might be a possibility.

 

The other solution would for some enterprising individual in Australia to act as an agent, sourcing batteries locally, and importing the rest.

 

I suppose it depends on how much modellers in Australia really want them.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Regularity

[Simond]

 

Lithium batteries travel as class 9 dangerous goods. I’m possibly out of date, but I understand they’re now banned from cargo on passenger planes, due to the risk of fire.

 

http://www.nycaviation.com/newspage/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/UPS-1307-2.jpg

 

I note that the safety briefing on flights now mentions that you should inform staff if your phone starts smoking, or has fallen down & got jammed in the seat mechanism...

 

(And in that unfortunate situation, the recommendation is to immerse it in water, or any other aqueous liquid - ice is not recommended)

 

Best

Simon

[railwayrod]

Having followed this discussion on battery powered locos and I feel that this is a subject that needs wider attention than just Chris's thread. I think that a new thread could be justified to widen it to a bigger audience. I know of a couple of people who are using Protocab and they are very pleased with it especially as sound is likely to come eventually. What do you all think?

 

Rod

[81A Oldoak]

Having followed this discussion on battery powered locos and I feel that this is a subject that needs wider attention than just Chris's thread. I think that a new thread could be justified to widen it to a bigger audience. I know of a couple of people who are using Protocab and they are very pleased with it especially as sound is likely to come eventually. What do you all think?

 

Rod

Good idea Rod, but I don't think I'm the right person to chair it.

 

Chris

[MarshLane]

There is another option as well, just throwing it into the ring, sorry to hijack Chris ... there is a battery-powered Radio DCC system ... it works with ANY DCC base station and the transmitter (around £49 from Digitrains, Lincoln, if I remember rightly) simply has two wires from the track output on the base station.  Each loco then has a receiver chip in it, with power supplied (either from the track or batteries) this connects to the track input on the normal DCC chips (plain and sound).  It means that you can withdrawn the track power totally, power locos from batteries and still use your normal DCC system.  I keep planning on having a play with it, but haven't had chance yet.

 

The guys in the states that created it, called DRS (Dead Rail System), had a freely available, downloadable PDF that explained it all and even gave circuits if you wanted to build your own!

 

Anyone interested .. have a look at http://www.tamvalleyrr.com/wirelessdcc.html for the PDF eBook, which everyone can download freely.

 

Rich

[Fairweather]

Apologies for also butting in, but the S-Cab system can be used in the UK, as the kit can be supplied with UK frequencies. I've used it in a 48XX, and am hoping to do a sound fitted 3F shortly. It was the immediate availability of sound which drew me to it over the protocab system.

[Regularity]

There is another option as well, just throwing it into the ring

It was thrown into the ring on Saturday.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Regularity

[Regularity]

Apologies for also butting in, but the S-Cab system can be used in the UK, as the kit can be supplied with UK frequencies. I've used it in a 48XX, and am hoping to do a sound fitted 3F shortly. It was the immediate availability of sound which drew me to it over the protocab system.

Thanks for that: useful to know.

Where in the U.K. can we buy it?

 

It us not just the sounds, but the way they can be linked to what the engine is doing.

[Fairweather]

Thanks for that: useful to know.

Where in the U.K. can we buy it?

 

It us not just the sounds, but the way they can be linked to what the engine is doing.

I ordered through the website after a email discussion with the owner. Took a few days for it too clear customs but it wasn't much of a snag. For sound I'm sourcing a decoder, and will link it to the radio gear provided.

[MarshLane]

It was thrown into the ring on Saturday.

Oops sorry! Was reading and replying on a mobile and appear to have skipped a page!

[Regularity]

No problems: I take it as agreement on the suggestion.

[81A Oldoak]

Minerva 7788 is more or less completed and ready for service. This is the engine that has been fitted with the Protocab trackless control system. Number-plates are from Narrow Planet and the lamp is by ModelU. The main task remaining is to paint and install the crew from ModelU. I have attached a copy of Bill Potter's photo of the prototype 7788 at Ashchurch in 1961, which was the inspiration for my model.

[corneliuslundie]

In that case it needs to be a lot dirtier!

Jonathan

PS But I think it looks better as it is.