Cwm Bach - A South Wales Branch Line

[Poggy1165]

One solution to the colliery issue would be to delete the sidings in the foreground and pull the station forward. That would (I think) leave room for a loop, and maybe another siding at the back. The logic of this is I don't think there would be a right lot of 'ordinary' goods traffic by this era, and probably no domestic coal traffic (the usual mainstay) due to local landsales.

 

If the run round loop rather than the main line was extended into the second industry, that would effectively give an independent goods line, really justifying that pretty triple bracket signal on the prototype photo. (I admit to loving triple bracket signals.)

[Fat Controller]

Just to throw a joker in here; have you ever looked at Brynamman East?. Single terminal platform (no loop); the line next to the platform road disappearing under a road bridge to Brynamman West (a connection only used for goods traffic). On the other side of the platform was a curved siding. The line was originally Midland, worked by an auto-fitted Jinty in latter years. Signalling in the 1958 photo I'm looking at consists of an LMS u/q starter for the platform, then what looks like a very tall GW wooden post with one arm protecting the route to Brynamman West; on the other side of the post is an arm controlling the exit from the Brynamman West connection to the 'main line', along with a subsiduary/shunt arm controlling the route to what is presumably the yard (behind the photographer, alas)

[The Stationmaster]

One solution to the colliery issue would be to delete the sidings in the foreground and pull the station forward. That would (I think) leave room for a loop, and maybe another siding at the back. The logic of this is I don't think there would be a right lot of 'ordinary' goods traffic by this era, and probably no domestic coal traffic (the usual mainstay) due to local landsales.

 

If the run round loop rather than the main line was extended into the second industry, that would effectively give an independent goods line, really justifying that pretty triple bracket signal on the prototype photo. (I admit to loving triple bracket signals.)

 

The triple bracket was not entirely unusual in having a short arm reading to a siding (or in some cases to a couple of sidings, each with a  separate exit signal in the opposite direction).

[Andrew Young]

Am I the only one who likes Chris's plan as it is? Good operational interest in a compact space for 7mm of a prototype not often modelled. As from what chris has said there will be transfer of wagons between the colliery and main lines, there wont be much chance for locos of either company to stand idle for long.

 

As Chris says that the baseboards, some track and buildings have already been made I suspect the die has been cast as to the plan.... Will be watching with interest.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[81A Oldoak]

Brake vans or no brake vans on the colliery branch? The NCB seems to have been rather agnostic about their use. With such steep gradients in the Valleys one would have thought brake vans would be indispensable, but I have have plenty of photos and period film on DVD showing trains being hauled up and down steep lines without brake vans. Graig Merthyr colliery in West Glamorgan is an example with J94s slogging up the hill with empties in tow (see link to photo below). Using brake vans would introduce more operating interest and if I did, I would probably press one of the Dragon Models rather nice Taff Vale brake vans into service. However, I remain undecided.  

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=graig+merthyr+colliery&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=P9jHUoCvEsuqhAf-uICwCQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=992#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=GvjxZYILCJdgAM%3A%3BkLoMktfmWS0T4M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%252F5025%252F5759344953_3b05049005.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252F12a_kingmoor_klickr%252F5759344953%252F%3B1024%3B715

[switcher 1]

Rule No1 applies.

[David Siddall]

'Fraid I can't answer the question Chris but I look forward to someone coming up with the answer because it has a bearing on my own little project.

 

I've also got to say thanks for the link which led me to discover the complete and utterly outstanding 'South Wales Industrial Railways' photo set by Gordon Edwards on Flickr.

 

David

Edited January 4, 2014 by David Siddall

[flexible_coupling]

'Fraid I can't answer the question Chris but I look forward to someone coming up with the answer because it has a bearing on my own little project.

 

I've also got to say thanks for the link which led me to discover the complete and utterly outstanding 'South Wales Industrial Railways' photo set by Gordon Edwards on Flickr.

 

David

 

The shot linked just below is brilliant - simply for the interpretive dancing that the high quality permanent way forces on the trailing wagons... The shots from inside the shed are delightful to see too. Very interesting and inspiring...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5773546162/

[81A Oldoak]

Just to throw a joker in here; have you ever looked at Brynamman East?. Single terminal platform (no loop); the line next to the platform road disappearing under a road bridge to Brynamman West (a connection only used for goods traffic). On the other side of the platform was a curved siding. The line was originally Midland, worked by an auto-fitted Jinty in latter years. Signalling in the 1958 photo I'm looking at consists of an LMS u/q starter for the platform, then what looks like a very tall GW wooden post with one arm protecting the route to Brynamman West; on the other side of the post is an arm controlling the exit from the Brynamman West connection to the 'main line', along with a subsiduary/shunt arm controlling the route to what is presumably the yard (behind the photographer, alas)

Brynamman certainly is a unique set up and has a tin-plate works to supply industrial traffic. The signalling is also delightfully eclectic but, it doesn't really fit my site. 

[PGH]

Brake vans or no brake vans on the colliery branch? The NCB seems to have been rather agnostic about their use. With such steep gradients in the Valleys one would have thought brake vans would be indispensable, but I have have plenty of photos and period film on DVD showing trains being hauled up and down steep lines without brake vans. Graig Merthyr colliery in West Glamorgan is an example with J94s slogging up the hill with empties in tow (see link to photo below). Using brake vans would introduce more operating interest and if I did, I would probably press one of the Dragon Models rather nice Taff Vale brake vans into service. However, I remain undecided.  

 

Chris,

Generally the NCB only used brakevans where they had running powers over BR lines.  Offhand I can think of only two examples where they were used on internal NCB lines - Littleton Colliery (Staffs) and Granville Colliery (Shrops), the latter only after a runaway and derailment.  Both those locations involved fairly lengthy lines with steep but varying downhill gradients for loaded trains.  There may well have been other examples, but the use of brakevans especially for shorter distances would have been avoided as it would have involved extra shunting, nice for the modeller but not welcomed by the prototype crews.  The normal practice in the case of your example would probably be to pin the descending full wagon brakes down and if the gradient was particularly severe restrict the load to a small number of wagons.

 

With regard to the siding layout, an additional siding behind the station as suggested in Post #10, with or without runround facilities, would be better, giving one siding for empties and one for fulls, so that the exchange could take place there rather than in the station area.  The procedure then could be - the main line loco arrives with empties; runs round in the station loop; backs the train out and propels it up the colliery connection, still with the brakevan attached, into the empties siding; uncouples from the brakevan and couples on to the fulls in the other siding; draws the fulls out, picks up the brakevan from the rear of the empties and departs.  During this operation it could be held in the sidings while a passenger train arrives in the station.  This is far simpler than your suggestion in Post #5, and the prospect of an operation involving the BR loco having to wait for the NCB loco to arrive, or vice versa, would be most unlikely in the prototype.  

Edited January 5, 2014 by PGH

[chaz]

Lots of interesting comments and ideas. 

 

I suspect that the gate will not be a "56XX modified" version as I may want to make it operational in order to add interest. We shall see because as I stated previously, I do have a tendency to make things up as I go along. Thus, the signal box may need to be moved along a bit in order to allow a more robust trapping arrangement. I could move the signal box to the other side of the line, but that would leave a rather boring brick wall to look at instead of the detailed and illuminated interior through the windows, as we shall see in due course.

 

Chris, I have a gate which used to be on my, now dismantled, 7mm roof layout. It's hoping for a good home and is yours if you want it.....It is plain white and will need weathering but that will give you no problem.

 

Chaz

[81A Oldoak]

Chris, I have a gate which used to be on my, now dismantled, 7mm roof layout. It's hoping for a good home and is yours if you want it.....It is plain white and will need weathering but that will give you no problem.

 

Chaz

Thank you very much Chaz. I'll give you a call before I drop by to collect it.

 

Chris

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

If I may go back to the plan, you appear to have a min length of 5 sets of point. Shortest points readily available seem to be about 16" long so that is 80" total. Only leaves 40" for either end and the parts between the points.

 

I may be missing something here so if I am wrong I would be interested in the feedback of what I have missed.

 

All the best

 

Keith

[daifly]

I think that you are mathematically correct, but the answer is somewhat irrelevant. The critical dimensions in a layout such as this will be:

1. the clear length of the headsunt between bufferstops and the toe end of the turnout blades as this will dictate the longest locomotive that can use the loop.

2. the length of the clear track in the platform road between the fouling points at each end of the loop as this will determine the longest rake of coaches or wagons that can be run around.

The length of the fiddle yard roads should not be greater than the sum of 1 & 2 otherwise the excess length is wasted space since the station cannot possibly handle longer trains without employing a pilot loco - unlikely in this layout's scenario.

Dave

Edited January 5, 2014 by daifly

[81A Oldoak]

Interesting chit-chat about the dimensions of the layout. The rough sketch, which is not to scale, excludes the storage yard board, which will include about 6" of running line and allow running round at the platform to take place in full sight. The dimensions  work as I have tested them with loosely laid track and rolling stock on the boards.

 

Last night, I was perusing my copy of "The Rhymney and New Tradegar Lines" published by The Middleton Press. There are some very atmospheric photos of dampness, decrepitude and deriliction on the New Tradegar branch, especially around Aberbargoed. It willl be a challenge to reproduce this, but I think winter vegetation, faded and flaking paint and lots of puddles will help. Perhaps I should make the model in black-and-white?

[philip-griffiths]

As an aside, I came across a book on Welsh Place names that I had forgotten about yesterday.  Cwm = shallow valley!!  Is that what you really want??!!

Our sense of humour, devised to cause confusion amongst the English! One just has to visit Cwm Ebbw Vale to understand. My family come from Cwm Road, Aberbargoed. You need one leg shorter than the other to stand upright outside the house.

 

 

Chris - in terms of capturing the atmosphere, I would maybe avoid Aberbeeg, it is quite a feature, but specific. If I think about retaining walls then I think about Sunnybank Rd Blackwood, this drops down to the old main road behind a high retaining wall. Llanhilleth, especially in front of the school, or as someone has mentioned in another context (Paddywagon trains), Big Arch at Talywain. The feature is the dressed stone and its colour. I remember reading an Iain Rice article once (he is very familiar with Talywain/Varteg) where he said that you should be able to remove the rolling stock and tell the company and the generic location. Valleys architecture is perculiar to the area and hence this will give viewers the sense of location. It is what I'm trying to develop myself.

 

Regards.

[edcayton]

 Perhaps I should make the model in black-and-white?

 

That has always struck me as an intriguing idea. Has anyone ever done it?

 

Ed

[81A Oldoak]

My dear lady wife bought me Gordon Gravett's book on grass and vegetation for Christmas.  Lots of ideas in there to inspire re winter vegetation, including how to make puddles and muddy, rutted tracks.  

 

As an aside, I came across a book on Welsh Place names that I had forgotten about yesterday.  Cwm = shallow valley!!  Is that what you really want??!!

I have the Gravett book too and it is full of useful tips. Meanwhile, I was considering the texture of rough grass that has been orally manicured by sheep and it reminds me of, and I hesitate to write this, good old-fashioned flock powder.

 

On the etymology of cwm, it is synonymous with corrie or cirque, which we all remember from our O level geography lessons about glacial features. My main aim in concocting the name was to have something that was short, recognisably Welsh and offered the casual observer a fighting chance of being able to pronounce it. I have often thought that Australia and Wales could usefully engage in an exchange of place names to balance the former's surfeit of vowels with the latter's glut of consonants.

[Guest Isambarduk]

Just so, Chris - you beat me to it!  My understanding is that a cwm is an armchair-shaped, steep-walled, roughly semi-circular basin in a mountain that was formed by the head of a glacier, also known as a corrie or a cirque; from my O level geography but also geomorphology as a (former) geotechnical engineer.  David

[81A Oldoak]

Time for a South Wales loco interlude. Here are some shots of my Taff Vale A Class 0-6-2T.It is built from the Dragon Models kit, which inludes a single cast resin part for the smoke-box, boiler and firebox that much simplifies and speeds construction. The chassis is fitted with three-point compensation on the front two axles. It needs some more ballast weight and in due course will be weathered.

[Kickstart]

Interesting chit-chat about the dimensions of the layout. The rough sketch, which is not to scale, excludes the storage yard board, which will include about 6" of running line and allow running round at the platform to take place in full sight. The dimensions  work as I have tested them with loosely laid track and rolling stock on the boards.

 

Cheers. Trying to work out what will fit in the space I intend to use so keep adding these bits up for myself.

 

All the best

 

Keith

[Fat Controller]

Just so, Chris - you beat me to it!  My understanding is that a cwm is an armchair-shaped, steep-walled, roughly semi-circular basin in a mountain that was formed by the head of a glacier, also known as a corrie or a cirque; from my O level geography but also geomorphology as a (former) geotechnical engineer.  David

In the strict geomorphological sense it is, but in Welsh, it is a valley.. Hence 'Cwm Mawr' (near Cross Hands), 'Cwm Bach' (between Furnace and Trimsaran), and many others- the nearest 'Cwm' in the form of a glacial basin to either of these is probably 'Llyn y Fan Fach' in the Black Mountains near Llangadog. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/llyn-y-fan-fach-makes-1812775 . I never understood why we didn't visit it on our annual 'Black Mountains' field trip- it might be that there wasn't a pub..

[steve fay]

Time for a South Wales loco interlude. Here are some shots of my Taff Vale A Class 0-6-2T.It is built from the Dragon Models kit, which inludes a single cast resin part for the smoke-box, boiler and firebox that much simplifies and speeds construction. The chassis is fitted with three-point compensation on the front two axles. It needs some more ballast weight and in due course will be weathered.

Stunning, I love how the tanks look so real

[br2975]

(i)

With so many sheep around, this raises the sticky question of modelling their poo!

(ii)

 I have to admit to ignoring this feature so far where they graze in the field overlooking the loco shed, but as it at the front of the layout, perhaps I should consider this detail now!

(i)

It bears a striking resemblance to the inside of an Eccles Cake

 

(ii)

They must be tame sheep grazing in a field - in most of South Wales they graze where they bl**dy well like, and deposit their excrement in a similar manner.

 

"In a previous life" my daughter attended a neighbourhood PACT meeting in the Garw Valley - where the most contentious issue was a flock of feral sheep terrorising Pontycymmer - mob handed they would enter gardens and back yards, rip open bin bags, knock over bins, cr*p everywhere and weren't scared of humans shouting and waving their arms !

 

Brian R

Edited January 6, 2014 by br2975

[sparks]

On the etymology of cwm, it is synonymous with corrie or cirque, which we all remember from our O level geography lessons about glacial features. My main aim in concocting the name was to have something that was short, recognisably Welsh and offered the casual observer a fighting chance of being able to pronounce it. I have often thought that Australia and Wales could usefully engage in an exchange of place names to balance the former's surfeit of vowels with the latter's glut of consonants.

 

While Welsh place names seem to have a paucity of English vowels you need to remember that both w and y are also vowels in Welsh.

 

Having grown up in the Valleys myself (although much further east) I will watch this one with interest!