MLV class 419

[class37418stag]

hello and happy new year 2014

 

so class 419 haul one tank wagon for diesel to dover by shunter and class 419 use super shunter for depot by move any rolling stock or locomotives?

 

thank you

['CHARD]

hello and happy new year 2014

 

so class 419 haul one tank wagon for diesel to dover by shunter and class 419 use super shunter for depot by move any rolling stock or locomotives?

 

thank you

 

Hi Andrew,

 

Did Class 419 MLV haul diesel tanks to Dover and were they used as depot shunters? 

 

I think that's what we're trying to establish?

 

Anyone from that neck of the woods able to assist?

[robertcwp]

There is an MLV hauling a tank wagon at Dover in this image:

 

DoverWD_7-92 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Southernman46]

Yes - they were used to haul up to three TTA tanks of water from BR's artesian well water supply at Dover Priory to the various SR carriage washing plants at Slade Green / Gillingham etc.. during the summer drought of 1989(?) - not entirely sure of  the year. Both NSE & Jaffa Cake liveried examples were utilised.

[class37418stag]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/102240491@N02/11071949403/in/photolist-hSoCPn-aCrkFy-aCqUBy-aTkjeX-aTkmvM-aTkixZ-aTkpAV-aCoC1p-aTktKz-aTkoQa-aTknh4-aCowJa-aCoe76-aTkqo8-aTkh9T-aCr6Pj-dGbBgA-aTkzJz-aTkwai-aCriAj-aTksTX-aZx5ba-aTkjYF-aCrnKu-aTkkJP-aCohdD-aTky2v-aTkgvH-aCrbty-aCr39C-aCoiNV-aTkrgk-aCr4KL-aCrmW1-aCoqBr-aTko6F-aTkyQg-aCrj7Y-aCrfhQ-aCrd2L-aCrdJm-aCok3r-aZx6zp-aCrejS-aZx688-aCr9Y7-aCr8NC-aComkv-aCr1XW-aTkxfZ-aTksb2

[class37418stag]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/102240491@N02/11071949403/in/photolist-hSoCPn-aCrkFy-aCqUBy-aTkjeX-aTkmvM-aTkixZ-aTkpAV-aCoC1p-aTktKz-aTkoQa-aTknh4-aCowJa-aCoe76-aTkqo8-aTkh9T-aCr6Pj-dGbBgA-aTkzJz-aTkwai-aCriAj-aTksTX-aZx5ba-aTkjYF-aCrnKu-aTkkJP-aCohdD-aTky2v-aTkgvH-aCrbty-aCr39C-aCoiNV-aTkrgk-aCr4KL-aCrmW1-aCoqBr-aTko6F-aTkyQg-aCrj7Y-aCrfhQ-aCrd2L-aCrdJm-aCok3r-aZx6zp-aCrejS-aZx688-aCr9Y7-aCr8NC-aComkv-aCr1XW-aTkxfZ-aTksb2

http://www.flickr.com/photos/102240491@N02/11071873464/in/photolist-hSoff5-hSoCPn-aCrkFy-aCqUBy-aTkjeX-aTkmvM-aTkixZ-aTkpAV-aCoC1p-aTktKz-aTkoQa-aTknh4-aCowJa-aCoe76-aTkqo8-aTkh9T-aCr6Pj-dGbBgA-aTkzJz-aTkwai-aCriAj-aTksTX-aZx5ba-aTkjYF-aCrnKu-aTkkJP-aCohdD-aTky2v-aTkgvH-aCrbty-aCr39C-aCoiNV-aTkrgk-aCr4KL-aCrmW1-aCoqBr-aTko6F-aTkyQg-aCrj7Y-aCrfhQ-aCrd2L-aCrdJm-aCok3r-aZx6zp-aCrejS-aZx688-aCr9Y7-aCr8NC-aComkv-aCr1XW-aTkxfZ

[Gwiwer]

An MLV on battery power was able to travel over non-electrified lines around Dover Harbour and elsewhere towing a limited load.  They did as described above haul water tanks at times but I don't recall them towing fuel tanks.  Diesel shunting locos were provided for shunting freight wagons, usually from class 09 though in later years class 33 main line locos were used. 

 

They could be used as depot shunters but were not normally so employed.  They were not built with adequate power to shunt more than a couple of unpowered vehicles and again class 09 locos were more commonly used or pairs of specially converted motor coaches which then had a superior power : weight ratio in oprder to move longer units when those were unpowered.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Gwiwer

[Nedrahn]

I seem to recall most of the MLVs became depot tractor units after the end of the boat trains, reclassified in the departmental series (931 without looking it up?). I feel sure Ramsgate and Strawberry Hill used them, although others might know better. I would think any such use would be on the juice, possibly in pairs (thus with two power bogies and reasonable power to weight); each unit had two 250hp traction motors. An MLV also had a vacuum exhauster, so vac stock could hauled. As Gwiwer makes clear, off the juice is another world altogether - contrary to editorial comments in a certain railway magazine over the years, an MLV could NOT happily trundle up and down all day on batteries with an EMU in tow. On the East Kent the green MLV sometimes takes the EPB on the batts, but only on special occasions, and then usually with diesel assistance part of the way. There has been talk of fitting a diesel generator in one of the MLVs.

 

In service days the idea of battery power was to get passenger luggage in the MLVs on to the unelectrified quays at Dover Western Docks and Folkestone (soon to be destroyed, if anyone wishes to object), and so alongside the waiting ferry. In normal service haulage off the juice would have been confined to the short-lived TLVs.

 

They certainly hauled the water wagons, either singly or in pairs, as detailed above and again (mostly) on the juice. I don't know, but I would imagine diesel fuel for the Dover shunters would have been tagged on to the continental freights, or perhaps delivered by road. However, the gronks went gronking up to Ashford some nights (a sound I remember well), so possibly they took fuel only at Ashford. I emphasise that this is speculation.

[Gwiwer]

I agree most became tractor units.  They were powered from the third rail when used as such though may have made very short moves within depot limits off battery power.  I'm not sure the batteries were kept fully charged after quayside use as luggage vans ceased which would also have affecyed their ability to run off-juice let alone haul a dead-weight load.

[class37418stag]

Hello everyone 

 

end of route boat train from London Victoria to Dover or Folkestone later post office use class 419 for delivery post and parcels for London ?

 

 I know post office been repainted new red livery later been robbed and repainted new Network southeast livery and carry on by delivery of posts and parcels 

 

which route for class 419 for delivery Royal Mail 

 

thank you

[sandwich station]

On 02/01/2014 at 09:19, Nedrahn said:

 

 

 However, the gronks went gronking up to Ashford some nights (a sound I remember well), so possibly they took fuel only at Ashford. I emphasise that this is speculation.

 

I was told many years ago by someone who worked in the docks that the gronks ran up to Ashford to refuel at night.

[class37418stag]

I don’t understand your comment sorry 

I am not talking about gronks

 

[Steven B]

This site https://www.bloodandcustard.com/br-mlv.html has a good history of the units, including liveries carried and their normal routes.

 

Steven B.

[bécasse]

26 minutes ago, Steven B said:

This site https://www.bloodandcustard.com/br-mlv.html has a good history of the units, including liveries carried and their normal routes.

That site mentions that the first two MLVs were used in running brake conversion tests coupled between a 4-CEP and a Bulleid 3-set, but fails to mention that similar tests were carried using a rake of fitted 16-ton mineral wagons (and, presumably piped, goods brake van). The amazing sight of a 4-CEP MLV combination trailed by a long rake of bauxite-painted 16-ton mineral wagons is one that remains firmly in my memory over 60 years later. IIRC, similar games could be played with some of the first batch of EDs.

[sandwich station]

5 hours ago, bécasse said:

That site mentions that the first two MLVs were used in running brake conversion tests coupled between a 4-CEP and a Bulleid 3-set, but fails to mention that similar tests were carried using a rake of fitted 16-ton mineral wagons (and, presumably piped, goods brake van). The amazing sight of a 4-CEP MLV combination trailed by a long rake of bauxite-painted 16-ton mineral wagons is one that remains firmly in my memory over 60 years later. IIRC, similar games could be played with some of the first batch of EDs.

 

Shame there is no pictures of it. 

[class37418stag]

Hello everyone 

 

dead class 419 hauled from class 33 or 73 in 1980 to 1994 ?

Edited April 13, 2021 by class37418stag

[roythebus1]

Class 419 (MLV) could run in multiple with ED class 73, and with class 33/1, as well as all EP type EMU stock.

 

The batteries would charge when the 419 was cut in and on the juice (taking power from the 3rd rail). 

 

There was a tale of one managing to get from Redhill to Tonbridge with one vehicle in tow one night. I suppose driven carefully it would be possible.

 

[Wickham Green too]

Presumably the driver was confident he could do it before he set off !!?!

[Phatbob]

5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably the driver was confident he could do it before he set off !!?!

The legend has it that all the signal boxes between Redhill and Tonbridge were instructed to make sure the train got a clear run witth all signals off well before the MLV got to them.
The usual modus operandi was to pilot the MLV with an ED on diesel, but on at least one occassion an MLV made the trip without a loco attached.

[HGR]

Some of the MLVs got new batteries in the early 1980s. However not all - 68003 / 9003 for example still had its earlier old style EXIDE IronClad battery when it was withdrawn, and the battery was pretty much useless by then. The ones that were replaced received new Crompton plastic-cased cells. Although the same 'spec', advances in battery technology should have given them a slight additional advantage over their predecessors even though still quoted as the same 260 amp-hour rating. The older batteries manufactured by the likes of EXIDE were certainly more tolerant to mis/abuse, so would survive deeper discharge, being left flat for a while, etc. The newer types although bringing you back to 'factory fresh' condition, seem to be far less tolerant and must be looked after carefully. Add to this, the modern propensity for battery manufacturers to scrimp on internal active material to save cost / weight but still claim the same capacity rating /endurance.

 

The batteries take some time to reach full state of charge, so the success of any trip would be down to three things : battery condition, initial state of charge, and driving style. Other factors can have an effect to some extent, such as the flat end of the vehicle being marvellously un-aerodynamic, meaning that a head or tail wind will be noticed.

 

Another factor, and a very significant one, is the van in tow. If it's air braked, fine, so is the MLV. If however it's a vac braked van, you need to run the exhauster on the MLV. This runs continuously at slow speed to maintain the running vacuum, but is speeded up to initially create vacuum and release the brake. Compare this with the compressor, which cuts in and out in response to the governor to maintain reservoir air pressure so is not running continuously. The exhauster absolutely hammers the battery, and takes far more power over time than the compressor, thus reducing the time 'on battery'. Of course, you would never ever contemplate leaving the exhauster cut out and pulling strings on the van(s), leaving the poor guard (if you had one) in the van as a swinger on the back !

 

 

 

 

[pheaton]

What was the official range on battery power? And does anyone have any more details on the RM ones thats got robbed?

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by pheaton

[HGR]

There wasn't a range quoted. Instead, the operating manuals specified that the MLV could run 'on battery' for a maximum of 20 minutes and then must return to the juice rail.

[Wickham Green too]

Hmm ..... Redhill to Tonbridge is a round 20 miles - an average of 60mph ! ........... must've been a following wind !

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmm ..... Redhill to Tonbridge is a round 20 miles - an average of 60mph ! ........... must've been a following wind !

It would be nice if the NSE one at Southall got chance to come out and play.

Has it been outside in the last few years ?

[HGR]

8 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmm ..... Redhill to Tonbridge is a round 20 miles - an average of 60mph ! ........... must've been a following wind !

An MLV on battery with no tail load will attain about 25 MPH on level track, and be taking about 100 Amps. 

With 100 Ton load, it's about half that speed and 200 - 250 Amps on the level.

By way of example 100 Ton tail load on a 1 in 145 rising gradient gets you down to below 10 MPH and the current up to 300 - 400 Amps.

 

These are in PARALLEL notch. There's no point going for WF as the increase in speed compared to the increase in current is marginal to say the least and just serves to hasten the onset of flat batteries. You need the higher voltage of the third rail and its ability to deliver hundreds of amps to get the legs out of weak field.

 

The 250 Amp Hour rating of the batteries is the 5 hour rating. So is like saying a steady 50 Amps for five hours. If you draw higher currents, you get progressively lower overall capacity than rated, so 100 A won't last for 2.5 hours. This is probably where the 20 minutes running time on battery comes from given the sort of currents above. Incidentally, the maximum charge rate is limited to 50 Amps (at best) by the regulator that fields the MG, so a full re-charge would be expected to take at least five hours. In reality the current starts to tail off as the battery state of charge comes up to approaching full, so it takes more like a full 8 hour shift to pack in the full 100%. 

 

A good set of fully charged batteries, minimal air leaks and no unscheduled stops / unexpected restarts should let you get from Redhill to Tonbridge in an hour or so. But, if it all goes quiet on you, you're on your own in the middle of the back-of-beyond !