Bluebell Railway news

[Grizz]

To add to RASalmon’s well explained latest post. It is also important to remember that we live in very different times. There are quite rightly increasing requirements that must be met.
 

No longer are we allowed to let 20 or so random people, many with little or no first hand railway experience, grab hold of old tools and manually handle rails, sleepers and other materials that can cause life changing injuries. We no longer use he backs of fag packets to work out ‘it’ll prob be alright calculations’, because if something goes wrong there are now very real consequences. Prosecutions under the H&S74 means huge fines and jail terms. We are governed by the same rules as NR and LU are and by the same authority. 
A Documented and auditable paper trail is required for all activities. Risk must be managed. Those who do not believe this is the case have no place on the railway as we are no longer ‘playing trains’. Like it or not risk assessments and method statements are required, for good reason. Most of it is so straight forward. It is mostly, what most of the time, most people are already doing, just written down. 
Minimise people, reduce to safe numbers, funny because that is the first part of the Covid RA. Reduce numbers. 

Strangely it is now physically much safer and easier to rebuild the railway. That makes us happy. We do enjoy it. We are constantly reviewing what we do and how we are doing it. Continual improvement.....’cause everyday is a school day’..

 

Anyway it isn’t what we are doing that worries me.....it what other organisations probably aren’t doing or definitely aren’t doing...now that’s what worries me. Luck has a nasty habit of running out.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Grizz
Missed a bit auto deleted cororctetion

[SR71]

On 11/02/2021 at 08:09, Grizz said:

‘Taters’ this morning....  -9c...

 

 

 

 

 

Presumably that's measuring the temperature so that you can make allowance for the expansion come the August bank holiday (ignoring the cooling effects of drizzle)?

 

Are there equations or tables that dictate the gap size/frequency to be left at a given temperature on the day of laying?

[Grizz]

7 hours ago, SR71 said:

 

Presumably that's measuring the temperature so that you can make allowance for the expansion come the August bank holiday (ignoring the cooling effects of drizzle)?

 

Are there equations or tables that dictate the gap size/frequency to be left at a given temperature on the day of laying?

Yes it is. It is amazing how hot the track can get.
Granite ballast, rails and concrete sleepers act like a storage heater. Last year the air temp was 35c at 14:00 in HK down yard, the general temperature having built up over numerous weeks. On the same day the track temperature was 48c at 12:00 and 52c at 16:00, the hottest part of the day as far as the track is concerned. I was noticeably hotter as we approached the track, just like standing in front of a radiator.
 

We have ‘short rails’ on Bluebell, except for the ‘long rails’ in the tunnel. (See previous post on here on Feb 2nd for the Standard definition of rail lengths).   In the UK a given rail section is a given length at the stress free temperature of 27c. This is an excellent article which explains short rail sites very well. https://pwayblog.com/2017/03/25/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-jointed-track/       
And doesn’t fill up pages and pages on here.

Last week we had a rail temperature of -9c for three consecutive days. The track must not be disturbed from -7c, but fortunately we are involved in work away from the track at New Road so we just kept going.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Grizz
Speiloing

[Flittersnoop]

While I appreciate the commercial and practical factors at work, I find it depressing that such a key component of the old railway, bullhead track, can be consigned so enthusiastically to the history books. The "clickety clack" of jointed rail is, for me, one of the main pleasures of a visit to a heritage railway. It's telling that what used to be preserved railways are now "heritage" railways. I wonder how many other inconvenient and expensive aspects of the railway (semaphore signalling, for example?) can be dispensed with before these lines are simply tourist railways, since most of the heritage hasn't been preserved?

Has anyone ever considered starting a fund-raising appeal for the clickety-clack - it seems to work for trains and viaducts, why not track?

[Chris116]

 

1 hour ago, Flittersnoop said:

While I appreciate the commercial and practical factors at work, I find it depressing that such a key component of the old railway, bullhead track, can be consigned so enthusiastically to the history books. The "clickety clack" of jointed rail is, for me, one of the main pleasures of a visit to a heritage railway. It's telling that what used to be preserved railways are now "heritage" railways. I wonder how many other inconvenient and expensive aspects of the railway (semaphore signalling, for example?) can be dispensed with before these lines are simply tourist railways, since most of the heritage hasn't been preserved?

Has anyone ever considered starting a fund-raising appeal for the clickety-clack - it seems to work for trains and viaducts, why not track?

Given that the Bluebell are not installing continuous welded rail there will still be the clickety clack. The only difference is that it will be from flatbottom rail and not bullhead. Since many lines had flatbottom rail before the end of British Rail steam operation I cannot see the problem. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Chris116

[Grizz]

39 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

While I appreciate the commercial and practical factors at work, I find it depressing that such a key component of the old railway, bullhead track, can be consigned so enthusiastically to the history books. The "clickety clack" of jointed rail is, for me, one of the main pleasures of a visit to a heritage railway. It's telling that what used to be preserved railways are now "heritage" railways. I wonder how many other inconvenient and expensive aspects of the railway (semaphore signalling, for example?) can be dispensed with before these lines are simply tourist railways, since most of the heritage hasn't been preserved?

Has anyone ever considered starting a fund-raising appeal for the clickety-clack - it seems to work for trains and viaducts, why not track?

Fittersnoop I don’t have a problem with the concept of only sticking to Bullhead Rail, Wooden sleepers, cast chairs and mills steel keys. Come up with limitless millions and anything is possible. 
It only has to indefinitely meet the following criteria.

Who in the future is going to supply all this new Bullhead Rail, New Chairs, New Wooden Sleepers and New Steel Mills Keys. Second had rail in ‘preservation’ will require a safety critically trained and licensed staff to management the known and most importantly unknown rail defects, for the life of the rail.

 Wooden sleepers life expectancy 30 years. Steel keys require to be checked by Safety Critically trained, assessed and accredited staff, these need to be checked minimum every 7 days. Most second hand chairs and mills steel keys are worn which means they are defective, which is why they have been replaced in the first place. This means that they are sub standard. NR and LU have directives to remove such track configuration from their infrastructure. 
 

All rail joints in the track are a weakness. This is an engineering fact. Someone even suggested that we cut a slot in the rail heads so punters could hear it.....

Where do I begin......any damage to a rail is what is known as a stress raiser. Cutting a transverse ‘slot’ in the rail head would weaken it. Should it then fail under load and become either a cracked or broken rail then that is cost. If it is broken it is a reportable incident. That is assuming that it doesn’t result in a 
 

Some small lines with little tank engines and light weight stock might get away with that. I reiterate, we are living in the real world of litigation, not the 1970s. Bluebell runs 9F, Merchant Navy, etc etc, which is why after taking expert advice we have invested in the future. Life expired track and formations need replacing. Do it once do it right. Invest in the future. Anyway 113A flat bottom rail is heritage as UIC 60 rail with Fast Clips have now superseded it. 

 

 

[Flittersnoop]

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

Given

Given that the Bluebell are not installing continuous welded rail there will still be the clickety clack. The only difference is that it will be from flatbottom rail and not bullhead. Since many lines had flatbottom rail before the end of British Rail steam operation I cannot see the problem. 

There are other lines that are installing welded rail. That is the problem.

[Grizz]

1 hour ago, Flittersnoop said:

There are other lines that are installing welded rail. That is the problem.

Who exactly are these railways?  How many?. How is it being justified financially if the maximum speed is 25mph? CWR isn’t necessary at that speed. Great if it is short and in a straight line with no S&C. It comes with additional burdens that require attention, it is not maintenance free, especially if you need to regularly cut in replacement rails. 
That will also require a safety critical regime to be in place. Staff suitably trained and assessed as competent to carry out the required maintenance Level1,2,3. Training records, Stressing records kept to support this. Auditable paper trails to be in place. Additional costs that just won’t stack up on most 25mph railways. So how many and who?

 

Or is this just yet another load of moaning, flat earth brigade fake news? 

[Flittersnoop]

1 hour ago, Grizz said:

Who exactly are these railways?  How many?. How is it being justified financially if the maximum speed is 25mph? CWR isn’t necessary at that speed. Great if it is short and in a straight line with no S&C. It comes with additional burdens that require attention, it is not maintenance free, especially if you need to regularly cut in replacement rails. 
That will also require a safety critical regime to be in place. Staff suitably trained and assessed as competent to carry out the required maintenance Level1,2,3. Training records, Stressing records kept to support this. Auditable paper trails to be in place. Additional costs that just won’t stack up on most 25mph railways. So how many and who?

 

Or is this just yet another load of moaning, flat earth brigade fake news? 

You seem to have an attitude problem.

 

The two lines I visit most regularly - Severn Valley and GWR, both have significant stretches of CWR. So no, not fake news. And if one of the features of a railway that I most enjoy is removed, I reserve the right to "moan", which is I guess how you characterise the expression of any opinion contrary to your own. Jeez, some people!

 

 

 

 

[Grizz]

CWR in the UK increased following the Hither Green train crash with an emphasis on removal of rail joints in the track. https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Hither1967.pdf

The report into the crash makes very interesting reading. Star cracking from a bolt hole at a rail joint, hiding behind the fish plates. This is why the big railways started CBXing their rail joint bolt holes. Check out the Comet plane crash for similar metal fatigue cracking.....amazing stuff. 
 

Can think of two ‘preserved’ railways in the UK that currently use CWR. Part of GWR and one small one (forgot it’s name) that inherited it from when it took over from the national network. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Grizz
Forgot the report link doh

[Grizz]

No not really, but I guess having left school and joined the railway and worked my way up through and then spent years in railway Pway management and railway safety management, I guess I might have a bit of a clue. I have not an issue with having BH in the track, looks great in stations. Like I said, cough up the millions and anything is possible. But it won’t be sustainable without millions because eventually it won’t be manufactured or if it is it’ll cost stacks per length.
 

Actually I’d like to see CWR in preservation because it is heritage in itself, considering how long ago we started to install it. It just comes with a price tag and regulations. Isn’t the GCR also CWR in places or am I thinking of the GWR? I used to hold stressing tickets, haven’t done it for quite a few years though. 
 

[Grizz]

Neal is this livery more to your liking?
Does anyone else remember it visiting Bluebell?  I can remember it but not when it was and how long for. Over to you RASalmon.....


 

I am biased but I believe that this a strikingly beautiful loco. I wish I could have seen some of the other locos of this era in this livery, particularly a D3.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Grizz
Added a bit

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Flittersnoop said:

You seem to have an attitude problem.

 

The two lines I visit most regularly - Severn Valley and GWR, both have significant stretches of CWR. So no, not fake news. And if one of the features of a railway that I most enjoy is removed, I reserve the right to "moan", which is I guess how you characterise the expression of any opinion contrary to your own. Jeez, some people!

Oh dear. Sadly your views represent those of many impractical fantasists who love old railways and expect the heritage railways of 2021 to ape the methods and materials of the past, but never have to pay the bill, nor face the coroner come the enquiry after the fatal mishap. How many failed schemes have such people perpetrated without understanding the costs and imperatives? The fact is that the enthusiast does not contribute the lion's share of heritage income these days, hence Thomas Days and similar junkets to attract families, so using whatever is most expedient, effective and, above all, safe, is what the railways have to do to stay remotely solvent. Far better to support those at the sharp end doing the Right Thing than bemoan the loss of Camelot. Slagging-off the Bluebell is really beneath contempt. 

[Grizz]

Oldddudders I think there is a genuine condition that sadly the people you describe suffer from. It used to be called O.S. (Ostrich Syndrome) but I am reliably informed by my son (representating da Yoof) that it has been renamed, and it is now referred to as E.C.S.    
And no it is not ‘Empty Coaching Stock’      but the sad condition know as Egyptian Crocodile Syndrome...... because

‘they are living in denial’............

[figworthy]

3 hours ago, Grizz said:

No not really, but I guess having left school and joined the railway and worked my way up through and then spent years in railway Pway management and railway safety management, I guess I might have a bit of a clue. I have not an issue with having BH in the track, looks great in stations. Like I said, cough up the millions and anything is possible. But it won’t be sustainable without millions because eventually it won’t be manufactured or if it is it’ll cost stacks per length.
 

Actually I’d like to see CWR in preservation because it is heritage in itself, considering how long ago we started to install it. It just comes with a price tag and regulations. Isn’t the GCR also CWR in places or am I thinking of the GWR? I used to hold stressing tickets, haven’t done it for quite a few years though. 
 

 

I believe that the Glos & Warks has a section of CWR, in part to reduce the noise where it is running through a residential area (which may post date BR's closure of the route).

 

Adrian

[rasalmon]

3 hours ago, Grizz said:

Neal is this livery more to your liking?
Does anyone else remember it visiting Bluebell?  I can remember it but not when it was and how long for. Over to you RASalmon.....


 

I am biased but I believe that this a strikingly beautiful loco. I wish I could have seen some of the other locos of this era in this livery, particularly a D3.

Not too long to wait for a loco in this livery, I believe.

Gladstone visited for our Centenary in 1982.
In the meantime, if you like the livery, there's a bargain from our shop at the moment: https://www.bluebell-railway.com/product/lbscr-terrier-0-6-0t-48-leadenhall/

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Flittersnoop said:

What am I in denial of? All I did was point out that track plays an important part in creating the old-fashioned atmosphere on a railway. How much of that atmosphere can you strip away before people start to notice? Plenty of preservation railways are charities whose function is to preserve railway heritage - the track is part of that heritage.

 

No-one questions the millions spent restoring steam engines. The ostriches are presumably the ones who stump up the cash for these uneconomic machines, rather than admit they're too expensive and the ordinary punters don't care what pulls the train, just as long as it emits a bit of smoke and whistles every now and then?

 

So which do you want? Heritage track in all its glory or actually having stock to run on it?

 

Granted its not an overnight process, but as time goes on more and more railways will have to face up to the fact that relying on someone banging what amounts to wedges to holding rails in place in NOT going to be acceptable if the ORR come calling however 'historical' the practice may be.

 

As the ORR chief inspector has said, he demands 21st Century safety standards from Heritage Railways, including FULL COMPLIANCE things designed to improve worker safety like using machines rather than humans to lift things. That usually costs money - something most Heritage organisations don't normally have much of so if a choice has to be made then making your track less labour intensive and more resilient is going to be the obvious preclearance.

 

As has been noted the ORR are taking a very strict line these days and they have explicitly told the Heritage Railway movement to stop relying on mainline cast toffs or outdated practices that are deemed to present a safety risk.

 

The 19th century ambiance is optional to the ORR, regardless of what you and others think - its ONLY possible if it can be made to work alongside said 21st Century standards (which is likely to incur costly / labour intensive mitigating measures etc)

 

Think yourself lucky the ORR haven't started making moves to get windows sealed up as per the mainline yet (hitting a bridge at 25mph is just as likely as to kill you as doing so at 70mph) as I can see that eventually being a requirement for Heritage operations.

 

The use of new flat bottom rail held in by Pandrol clips on concrete sleepers is an acceptable compromise - it retains the 'clickerty clack' sound of Bullhead - but more importantly doesn't require stressing kit or excessive ballasting to hold it in alignment and will require a less onerous inspection / maintenance regime going forward.

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, figworthy said:

 

I believe that the Glos & Warks has a section of CWR, in part to reduce the noise where it is running through a residential area (which may post date BR's closure of the route).

 

Adrian

 

BR lifted all the track in that area when the line closed!

 

Much as with the Bluebells extension to East Grinstead where undertakings that the station at West Hoathly would not be rebuilt to try and overcome local opposition, when the GWR were planning to reinstate the line through Bishops Cleve, the use of CWR (and no station) was similarly put forward as mitigating measures to hostile locals.

 

Given the problems that the GWR have subsequentially had with vandalism in the area, not relying on wedges that can be knocked out with a domestic hammer might not have been a bad idea too.

[woodenhead]

5 hours ago, Flittersnoop said:

You seem to have an attitude problem.

 

The two lines I visit most regularly - Severn Valley and GWR, both have significant stretches of CWR. So no, not fake news. And if one of the features of a railway that I most enjoy is removed, I reserve the right to "moan", which is I guess how you characterise the expression of any opinion contrary to your own. Jeez, some people!

 

Pot meet kettle.

 

Grizz is just sharing informative content on what is going on at the Bluebell and you've just criticised every heritage line for trying to keep within the current regulations and keep their lines fit for the future.

[rasalmon]

11 hours ago, Flittersnoop said:

While I appreciate the commercial and practical factors at work, I find it depressing that such a key component of the old railway, bullhead track, can be consigned so enthusiastically to the history books. The "clickety clack" of jointed rail is, for me, one of the main pleasures of a visit to a heritage railway. It's telling that what used to be preserved railways are now "heritage" railways. I wonder how many other inconvenient and expensive aspects of the railway (semaphore signalling, for example?) can be dispensed with before these lines are simply tourist railways, since most of the heritage hasn't been preserved?

Has anyone ever considered starting a fund-raising appeal for the clickety-clack - it seems to work for trains and viaducts, why not track?

Flittersnoop, I suggest you read what I wrote just over a week ago.  For your convenince I'll repeat it here:
"So yes, it's down to relative cost.  If someone had given the Bluebell an extra half million back in 2013 when the relay started, then SP-HK could have been relaid in bullhead.  But actually, that half million would have been better spent relaying an additional mile of the track...  Sadly those are the economics of having track fit to run trains on.  So the decision was reluctantly agreed by all parties that the aim would be to keep bullhead as far as possible in station areas, but that the running line had to be done using the lower cost option of flat bottom."
So we've not "enthusiatically" consigned bullhead to the history books.  We have used it in our station relays at Horsted Keynes and Sheffield Park.

And it appears you've clearly not visited the Bluebell since 2013 (i.e. since we opened the extension), since otherwise you'd be aware that the new flat bottomed rail (on the extension from Kingscote to East Grinstead) retains the clickty-clack!
For your information we have actually given fundraising our best shot, with the TracAction Appeal in 2017-18, and it raised about £200k.  Hardly the huge financial draw you think it should have.  The rest of the funding for the essential track, drainage and formation renewal (which must be something over a million over 8 years) so far has come from bequests left to the Bluebell Railway Trust, plus the sale of scrap rail.

[leopardml2341]

8 hours ago, rasalmon said:

And it appears you've clearly not visited the Bluebell since 2013 (i.e. since we opened the extension), since otherwise you'd be aware that the new flat bottomed rail (on the extension from Kingscote to East Grinstead) retains the clickty-clack!

Three letters; QED!

 

I try to do my bit by visiting a selection of preserved railways 3 or 4 times a year, but the more distant ones only crop up sporadically, Covid's put paid to that this time around, but when we're next able to......

Edited February 20, 2021 by leopardml2341

[Bucoops]

We went on the Bluebell in 2019 and loved it. Having bullhead in the station areas and (relatively) easy to maintain flat bottomed elsewhere did not detract from the experience at all. The Bluebell is in good hands (although I still think their "steam only" was a good draw but that's a whole other can of worms!).

 

Keep up the good work.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

18 hours ago, rasalmon said:

Flittersnoop, I suggest you read what I wrote just over a week ago.  For your convenince I'll repeat it here:
"So yes, it's down to relative cost.  If someone had given the Bluebell an extra half million back in 2013 when the relay started, then SP-HK could have been relaid in bullhead.  But actually, that half million would have been better spent relaying an additional mile of the track...  Sadly those are the economics of having track fit to run trains on.  So the decision was reluctantly agreed by all parties that the aim would be to keep bullhead as far as possible in station areas, but that the running line had to be done using the lower cost option of flat bottom."
So we've not "enthusiatically" consigned bullhead to the history books.  We have used it in our station relays at Horsted Keynes and Sheffield Park.

And it appears you've clearly not visited the Bluebell since 2013 (i.e. since we opened the extension), since otherwise you'd be aware that the new flat bottomed rail (on the extension from Kingscote to East Grinstead) retains the clickty-clack!
For your information we have actually given fundraising our best shot, with the TracAction Appeal in 2017-18, and it raised about £200k.  Hardly the huge financial draw you think it should have.  The rest of the funding for the essential track, drainage and formation renewal (which must be something over a million over 8 years) so far has come from bequests left to the Bluebell Railway Trust, plus the sale of scrap rail.

I still haven't made it to the Bluebell myself (I did a rail replacement job to EG from Purley not long before I left Brighton and Hove Buses and I came and had a look while there) so I have yet to try out the 'new' bit.

 

Regarding Bullhead I remember at Lewes there was an old cripple/engineering spur behind platform 1 that at the time had been relaid with new Bullhead rail, so some sod is still making it. It had that orange rust colour that new rail has, and fresh ballast. About 6 months later they came and took it up.

Edited February 20, 2021 by The Evil Bus Driver
My as usual terrible, dreadful, horrible speeling

[MrSimon]

I went in September 2019 and had a great time - my first visit.  The coach & wagon shop was great, and they were really great with dogs (Hamish wasn’t keen on the 4MT blowing off but enjoyed the rest of the day)

 

 

 

 

Will have to come again when things open up 

Simon 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

On 19/02/2021 at 18:12, Grizz said:

Neal is this livery more to your liking?
Does anyone else remember it visiting Bluebell?  I can remember it but not when it was and how long for. Over to you RASalmon.....


 

I am biased but I believe that this a strikingly beautiful loco. I wish I could have seen some of the other locos of this era in this livery, particularly a D3.

I was lucky enough to see it at Lovers Walk at the Brighton 150 event in 1991