Bluebell Railway news

[rasalmon]

The H2 is not a particularly large locomotive, and some fear it will be underpowered for our line's steep gradients.  We will have to wait and see :-)

The original I1s were very similar in power to the Adams Radial tank (and essentially the same as a D3, which would be a better loco to build).  All were rebuilt as I1X in the first decade of the SR.  They never had a great reputation.  We tend to forget also that they only had 5'6" diameter driving wheels, whereas the I3s had the same enormous drivers as the Atlantics.  If we were to build a new Atlantic tank (after we've got the Adams running again of course) the "LNWR-beating" I3 is of course the one to do.  But, yes, that's fantasy at present.

[burgundy]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

When considering LBSCR designs, there's only one that would closely fulfil today's requirements, and that is the K Class mogul.

 

John

 

 

The irony being that the Ks were withdrawn after the Bluebell was up and running. However, they were judged to be too large for the traffic that was then foreseen and other locos on the scrap line were given higher priority (as was purchase of the trackbed). 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[rasalmon]

John,
Yes, standard 4s are ideal for our line.  I am keen to promote the idea that we must have 80064 or 75027 ready to run by the time 80151's boiler certificate expires.  But variety is the spice of life, so having one of the two U-class (or the Q-class) running is also sensible.

Eric,

Yes, a shame we couldn't afford the K.  But when it was available in 1963 it was really a question of either the E4 or the K, and the E4 was cheaper.  The appeal for funds to purchase rolling stock didn't raise enough money to purchase either.  It was all down to money.

Edited March 5, 2021 by rasalmon

[Dunsignalling]

48 minutes ago, rasalmon said:

The H2 is not a particularly large locomotive, and some fear it will be underpowered for our line's steep gradients.  We will have to wait and see :-)

The original I1s were very similar in power to the Adams Radial tank (and essentially the same as a D3, which would be a better loco to build).  All were rebuilt as I1X in the first decade of the SR.  They never had a great reputation.  We tend to forget also that they only had 5'6" diameter driving wheels, whereas the I3s had the same enormous drivers as the Atlantics.  If we were to build a new Atlantic tank (after we've got the Adams running again of course) the "LNWR-beating" I3 is of course the one to do.  But, yes, that's fantasy at present.

Are there concrete plans/a funding appeal to get the Radial going again?

 

As an Axminster boy, I fondly remember what must have been only my third trip to the Bluebell (by coach) and organised by a work colleague of the time. One of our party was the late Tom Woodman, who had fired and driven them under BR. He had a whale of a time introducing some of your young volunteer enginemen to the ins and outs of working one. His broad grin lasted all the way home.

 

John

Edited March 5, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[thegreenhowards]

Surely a tank engine is the ideal loco for a preserved railway (unless one is going to invest in a turntable at both ends!). I think a Standard 4 tank is ideal. I’m not convinced that anything more than class 4 is required and classes 2 or 3 with small wheels are probably sufficient for most services. GW prairie tanks are pretty good (although I wouldn’t want to see one on the Bluebell).

[rasalmon]

We find a Class 4 adequate for 6 heavy coaches up our 1-in-75 ruling gradient (and the new 1-in-55 on the extension).  A class 2 would generally be restricted to lighter trains.  At one time there was a plan to move to 7-coach trains, since it is only Sheffield Park that currently does not have long enough platforms, and provision within the signalling for lengthening them has been made over recent years as and when convenient.
Smaller tank locomotives do not always have adequate water for a full round trip, or coal capacity for a full day's work.  At 25mph there is no great problem (except in wet weather or from coal dust in dry weather) in running tender-first.

There is plenty of use for smaller, more economical, locomotives on the Bluebell, hauling the vintage carriages, and the Pullman and Wealden Rambler dining trains.  Smaller locomotives are also a lot quicker and cheaper to overhaul.
A turntable at both ends would never be used on ordinary service days, because there's insufficient time within any sensible timetable, and because it's simply not necessary.

Edited March 5, 2021 by rasalmon

[rasalmon]

The Trust holds a very small restricted fund for the Adams Radial tank resulting from a couple of bequests, but there is no active fundraising for it.  There's no point in actively fundraising for something unless there's a clear plan and a workforce to lead or undertake the work.  There is no point in raising a little money for everything at once.  Instead, contributing to the present active BRPS-approved funds (Atlantic/E, 27, 92240, MLS, Bulleid Society, 84030) is more sensible in the interim.  A bequest of £500k to £750k for the Adams would see it become a serious project!  The first bequest towards the Adams received by the Trust was just £100, and was little more than a posthumous publicity stunt by the donor (rather than anything actually useful), who also donated £100, which has yet to be spent after several decades, towards a replacement signal box for Sheffield Park.

Edited March 5, 2021 by rasalmon

[Zomboid]

4 hours ago, rasalmon said:

And it's current condition, for comparison (photo by the late Dave Phillips):

 

If we're taking about paint, has it ever carried the Southern black/ sunshine lettering? My personal favorite colour scheme, but nothing comes up for this engine on a Google image search.

 

I'd put a couple of quid in the box if someone were fundraising for such a venture...

[Grizz]

5 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Surely a tank engine is the ideal loco for a preserved railway (unless one is going to invest in a turntable at both ends!). I think a Standard 4 tank is ideal. I’m not convinced that anything more than class 4 is required and classes 2 or 3 with small wheels are probably sufficient for most services. GW prairie tanks are pretty good (although I wouldn’t want to see one on the Bluebell).

 Totally agree with the Standard 4 Tank and they were mostly a Brighton product, and they were the last engines to be regularly used on the SP branch line.
However with the ruling gradient of 1 in 75 over a good percentage of the railway and with the reverse curves up through Imberhorne cutting, being a stiff 1 in 55 at the country end and 1 in 60 at the London end we don’t need small tank engines anything like as much. Perhaps in years to come they could be reserved for SP to HK, which they historically fit in with much better. Having just travelled up over the Holden Summit today, it is a savage climb in both directions. For example six coach mk1 trains are heavy, not really an issue though for Bullieds, U Boats, All the Standards, S15, etc etc....it’s happy days.
 

Yeah we’ve had ‘them Western things’ in the past, lovely to see them and all that...for the novelty factor, nice when they go home again too. Western things on Western Railways.  
 

 

[Grizz]

A box of Peco track arrived today. It was really time consuming painting all the E1809 Pandrols red. Still managed to weather the sleepers and rails at least. ... 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Grizz
Splleing

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Are there concrete plans/a funding appeal to get the Radial going again?

 

 

Unfortunately not

 

The problem is the loco is well and truly knackered - it needs a new boiler, wheels and major frame work IIRC - its no exaggeration to say a new build might be cheaper.

 

As such, from the Bluebells point of view there are far easier engines to overhaul which fulfil the smallish engine bracket.

 

As the situation with the Llangollen shows, the railway needs to be vigilant in matters of finance - and that means overhaul candidates have to be weighed up on how much money they will need to fix, not on how desirable they might be to the enthusiasts.  

 

If people want to seed the Radial running again then it needs to be the subject of a separate volunteer led appeal which can raise enough funds to make a start on the big ticket items mentioned above.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

If we're taking about paint, has it ever carried the Southern black/ sunshine lettering?

 

 

In preservation, no.

 

 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Looking good. Heavy work, this 12" to the foot scale...

 

Good exercise though lol

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, rasalmon said:

the present active BRPS-approved funds (Atlantic/E, 27, 92240, MLS, Bulleid Society, 84030)

Any plans for 72's and 55's sesquicentenaries, Richard?

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Grizz said:

Western things on Western Railways. 

Dukedog?

[Grizz]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Dukedog?

Well yeah exactly. We are depriving a Western preserved line of the only preserved example. Did it ever run on the Central Division? Or Southern? Personally I actually quite like the loco but would prefer to see it in its home location. Same with the North London Tank. 

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Grizz said:

Well yeah exactly. We are depriving a Western preserved line of the only preserved example. Did it ever run on the Central Division? Or Southern? Personally I actually quite like the loco but would prefer to see it in its home location. Same with the North London Tank. 

I understand your point but, for me, both those locos are so integral to the early Bluebell story that I believe they should both live there.

[Grizz]

26 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I understand your point but, for me, both those locos are so integral to the early Bluebell story that I believe they should both live there.

I also understand your point. But we are again in danger of preservering preservation. The Bluebell at that time was one of the only places locos could go. So as such that is where they went if they were lucky. Same with the rolling stock. 
 

What I mean is we are either trying to as accurately as possible replicate these precious assets as they should be or it comes down to a ultra small minority of people deciding in their view what is presented. Again I’ll use the example of Fenchurch in LBSC Burnt Umber.... but we can’t have the E4 in IEG because it is not accurate. But neither is Fenchurch in LBSCR Burnt Umber, with Fenchurch written on the side. This amounts to a ‘because I say so’ and ‘it’s my train set’ argument. The story of Bluebell is , fortunately, exceptionally well documented and that is thanks to people taking time to do this. However it is the double standards that are being applied that we are currently facing and in the future there is every sign that it is this attitude that is very likely to face massive rejection and in the not too distant future. Preserving preservation is also so hypocritical because if that were the case SP would have remained the same as it was in the 10960/70s, a small insignificant branch line station. If a loco livery was inaccurate to start with how has it improved with age or a we continuing with that livery because ‘we are again preserving preservation, instead of preserving history as accurately as possible.
So if Dukedog never ran on the Southern move it to somewhere more appropriate, an accurate depiction of history. Same with the Adams. If we can’t afford 3/4 millions to get it running, it either remains stuffed and mounted and deteriorating with us or perhaps another railway or non railway location might be able to take it on and return it to working order. If we truly value these unique assets and we set ourselves up as the high and mighty self appointed custodians of them, this is only true if we look after them. If we allow them to rot away because secretly we would rather that than let anyone else have them.... then what does that truly say about us. I know I would rather see locos and coaches moved and potentially run at other locations than fester for decades safe in the knowledge that at least no one else can have them.

 

Off for breakfast. Laters all. 

[Zomboid]

33 minutes ago, Grizz said:

But we are again in danger of preservering preservation.

The dukedog has been at the bluebell for much longer than it was in service with the GWR/ BR. That is a hugely significant part of it's history, and it is a hugely significant part of the bluebell's history. Plus apparently one of the stipulations of its donation is that it should remain at the bluebell.

 

The post BR part of any locos history is just as valid as what happened before. Given the whole history up to 2021, I'd say it's more of a bluebell engine than it is a western one now.

[Grizz]

9 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The dukedog has been at the bluebell for much longer than it was in service with the GWR/ BR. That is a hugely significant part of it's history, and it is a hugely significant part of the bluebell's history. Plus apparently one of the stipulations of its donation is that it should remain at the bluebell.

 

The post BR part of any locos history is just as valid as what happened before. Given the whole history up to 2021, I'd say it's more of a bluebell engine than it is a western one now.

If this is the case, and like I said I do actually like the loco, then we are actually preserving preservation.

As this is now the case that it will be very publicly acknowledged that this is the case and that there will be documented publicly accessible reasoning as to why particular decisions are being made. However I don’t recall this being the prime directive for the Preservation Society. 

[Zomboid]

Cut & paste from http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/gwr/dukedog.html

 

"The locomotive has now been donated to the Bluebell, with the requirement that the locomotive is to remain normally on the Bluebell Railway"

[Grizz]

Dukedog is responsible for some slight scaring on the back of my next. Burning coals out of the chimney, up against the tunnel roof, bounced off, then off my hard hat, down the back of my coat collar and onto my neck. This was a good few years ago, but too this day my lasting memory is that my mate could nearly stand for laughing as I did this funny dance, hopping around trying to pull them out. 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Grizz said:

I also understand your point. But we are again in danger of preservering preservation. The Bluebell at that time was one of the only places locos could go. So as such that is where they went if they were lucky. Same with the rolling stock. 
 

What I mean is we are either trying to as accurately as possible replicate these precious assets as they should be or it comes down to a ultra small minority of people deciding in their view what is presented. Again I’ll use the example of Fenchurch in LBSC Burnt Umber.... but we can’t have the E4 in IEG because it is not accurate. But neither is Fenchurch in LBSCR Burnt Umber, with Fenchurch written on the side. This amounts to a ‘because I say so’ and ‘it’s my train set’ argument. The story of Bluebell is , fortunately, exceptionally well documented and that is thanks to people taking time to do this. However it is the double standards that are being applied that we are currently facing and in the future there is every sign that it is this attitude that is very likely to face massive rejection and in the not too distant future. Preserving preservation is also so hypocritical because if that were the case SP would have remained the same as it was in the 10960/70s, a small insignificant branch line station. If a loco livery was inaccurate to start with how has it improved with age or a we continuing with that livery because ‘we are again preserving preservation, instead of preserving history as accurately as possible.
So if Dukedog never ran on the Southern move it to somewhere more appropriate, an accurate depiction of history. Same with the Adams. If we can’t afford 3/4 millions to get it running, it either remains stuffed and mounted and deteriorating with us or perhaps another railway or non railway location might be able to take it on and return it to working order. If we truly value these unique assets and we set ourselves up as the high and mighty self appointed custodians of them, this is only true if we look after them. If we allow them to rot away because secretly we would rather that than let anyone else have them.... then what does that truly say about us. I know I would rather see locos and coaches moved and potentially run at other locations than fester for decades safe in the knowledge that at least no one else can have them.

 

Off for breakfast. Laters all. 

So you wouldn't have 323 in Bluebell Blue either then?

[Grizz]

20 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

So you wouldn't have 323 in Bluebell Blue either then?

Personally no. And I should say this only my personal opinion so it really doesn’t matter. 
 

Why pick on Bluebell as ‘Bluebell’ livery. Why not paint Stepney or Adams in Bluebell livery? It is preserving preservation  but it has no democratic input. Or validity. It is what it is. It is a dictatorial edict. 

[rasalmon]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Any plans for 72's and 55's sesquicentenaries, Richard?

72: Yes: https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/loco_news/oh_72_fenchurch_2020.pdf
Both our Terriers are hopefully to play their part (one active, one static) in the 150th anniversary celebrations.