RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 The other day I read a review for the following book in model railway journal issue 227 Author: steve banks & clive carterTitle: LNER Passenger trains and formations 1923-67 the principal servicesISBN: 9780860936497Publisher: ian allanPublication Date: 2013Price: £45 There is one question I have been wanting to ask for a while now, about the formations of the York-Bournemouth services in the 1950s. The review hinted that the answer to my question might well be in this book. However, £45 for a book whose main contents are of no interest to me is a bit heavy, and due to the "cost and specialist nature" of the book Norfolk Library Service won't be getting a copy. Sooooo, has anyone on here got the book? Can anyone tell me the typical formation of the York - Bournemouth service in the 1950s (on days when the ER supplied the stock) As a supplementary, what ER locos worked the service from York to the loco swap (at Oxford?) and would there be any realistic circumstances by which the ER loco might theoretically be assumed to have remained on the train throughout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I saw the southbound train with a 9F on it about 1964 if that helps. No idea about the formation though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Info such as route and timings of Newcastle - Bournemouth trains here (scroll down) Western engines used to take over at Banbury according to this and Southern engines at Oxford. However, one of the highlights of trainspotting days at Eastleigh was to watch out for these trains as a Western engine very often used to work through, 7911 Lady Margaret Hall seemingly on this train more often than not.. edit... reading it again it says that Western engines took over at Banbury and 'the Southern Railway took over at at Basingstoke' - not sure about this as we used to see Western engines on them an awful lot of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 ... Author: steve banks & clive carter Title: LNER Passenger trains and formations 1923-67 the principal services ... due to the "cost and specialist nature" of the book Norfolk Library Service won't be getting a copy. ... Why can't they get it for you via an inter-library loan? There's still a charge - a fiver, if memory serves - but it should be possible to access through your public library pretty much any book held anywhere in the UK. I'm curious! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30851 Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Looking at the book I think it has a mistake - only one brake on a train that size in the 50's! But it says for the ER set. 1956 Summer BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO, SK - and no brake here! 1957 Winter BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, SK, BSK. All are MK1's except the RU which is a Gresley. The normal engine on the GC would be a B1 or sometimes a V2. In the 50's I would not expect these engines to get south of Banbury. There is a lot more information about the formation of this train on Robert Carroll's (RobertCWP on this site) Yahoo pages http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRcoachingstock/ I would confirm the formations for you but I cannot access that link from the computer I am on currently. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 10, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Why can't they get it for you via an inter-library loan? There's still a charge - a fiver, if memory serves - but it should be possible to access through your public library pretty much any book held anywhere in the UK. I'm curious! Paul Hi Paul, I'm assuming there are no other lending libraries with a copy either. I guess it's a small symptom of the squeeze on local government funding. I seem to recall that library services prided themselves on having at least one copy of very published book at one time, seemingly not any more. They did tell me of some reference libraries where a copy could be consulted. Nearest one to me is 2 hours journey Reference only locations are British Library London Reference collection, Cambridge University, Bodleian Library, Oxford, and National Rail Museum, York Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 10, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Looking at the book I think it has a mistake - only one brake on a train that size in the 50's! But it says for the ER set. 1956 Summer BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO, SK - and no brake here! 1957 Winter BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, SK, BSK. All are MK1's except the RU which is a Gresley. The normal engine on the GC would be a B1 or sometimes a V2. In the 50's I would not expect these engines to get south of Banbury. There is a lot more information about the formation of this train on Robert Carroll's (RobertCWP on this site) Yahoo pages http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRcoachingstock/ I would confirm the formations for you but I cannot access that link from the computer I am on currently. Rob Thank you so much , this is brilliant!! The winter formation will fit in my fiddleyard and I can have a gresley buffet!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 10, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Looking at the book I think it has a mistake - only one brake on a train that size in the 50's! But it says for the ER set. 1956 Summer BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO, SK - and no brake here! 1957 Winter BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, SK, BSK. All are MK1's except the RU which is a Gresley. The normal engine on the GC would be a B1 or sometimes a V2. In the 50's I would not expect these engines to get south of Banbury. There is a lot more information about the formation of this train on Robert Carroll's (RobertCWP on this site) Yahoo pages http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRcoachingstock/ I would confirm the formations for you but I cannot access that link from the computer I am on currently. Rob Rob, the web link Phil provided also mentions a Newcastle - Southampton, in connexion with the Channel Islands steamers. Stock is provided alternately by the G.W.R. and the L.N.E.R. The train leaves Newcastle at 12.44 p.m. Being really cheeky now, does the book give the formation for that one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hi Paul, I'm assuming there are no other lending libraries with a copy either. I guess it's a small symptom of the squeeze on local government funding. I seem to recall that library services prided themselves on having at least one copy of very published book at one time, seemingly not any more. They did tell me of some reference libraries where a copy could be consulted. Nearest one to me is 2 hours journey Reference only locations are British Library London Reference collection, Cambridge University, Bodleian Library, Oxford, and National Rail Museum, York I'm staggered they won't get it for you. You probably have better things to do with your time, but I'd be tempted to write to the County Librarian. A quick Google shows Norfolk still claiming to offer the ILL service, for £4.50 an item, here: http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/Leisure_and_culture/Libraries/Library_services/Library_charges/index.htm#P13_1311 I've never expected every library service to hold a copy of every published book, but every published book should still be accessible to everyone. Anyway, it appears you now have the information you were after, so I'm glad this has a sort-of happy ending! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 10, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm staggered they won't get it for you. You probably have better things to do with your time, but I'd be tempted to write to the County Librarian. A quick Google shows Norfolk still claiming to offer the ILL service, for £4.50 an item, here: http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/Leisure_and_culture/Libraries/Library_services/Library_charges/index.htm#P13_1311 I've never expected every library service to hold a copy of every published book, but every published book should still be accessible to everyone. Anyway, it appears you now have the information you were after, so I'm glad this has a sort-of happy ending! Paul Hi Paul, yes they offer the ILL service but another lending library would need to have the book in order for Norfolk to get it for me, and it seems from the correspondence I've had that nobody does. Bsically there are two ways they will get a book for you, one is to buy it for their stock, the other is the ILL, and I have explored both with them, to no avail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30851 Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Rob, the web link Phil provided also mentions a Newcastle - Southampton, in connexion with the Channel Islands steamers. Stock is provided alternately by the G.W.R. and the L.N.E.R. The train leaves Newcastle at 12.44 p.m. Being really cheeky now, does the book give the formation for that one? If I can remember where I put the book down an hour or so ago it would help! The book mentions the Glasgow - Southampton service which I assume is the one they are talking about. This service finished in 1939 and never ran again after the war. The formation changed over time but it is listed in 1935 as - BCK, TK (York to Southampton) - BTK, TO (Glasgow to Southampton) - RF,BTK (Newcastle to Oxford). Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 10, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Thanks a lot Rob! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
56c Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 QuoteLooking at the book I think it has a mistake - only one brake on a train that size in the 50's! But it says for the ER set. 1956 Summer BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO, SK - and no brake here! 1957 Winter BSK, FK, RU, TSO, TSO, SK, BSK. That's a typesetting typo - there was a BSK on the train, the tab slipped and it got presented underneath the preceding train which thus appears to have two brakes! I've been told that there's no such thing as a perfect book and on my website I have a section that deals with mistakes and foul-ups; I'm about to add this one, thank you. If I may make a point in passing, the purpose of the book was to explain how and why formations developed. We have more information on many trains but it's impossible to list every single roster telephone-directory style nor every minute change, many short-lived and of no significance. And this service did last a very long time - people tend to focus on the BR period but it actually ran through GCR, LNER and BR days, hence 5 pages with 12 rosters for the latter two periods alone. PS: Use of colour (peculiarly not promoted by Ian Allan) is one reason why the asking price may appear scary, but hardly anybody is paying it because Ian Allan is selling through Amazon where it's been around half-price, as low as £22.80, post-free. Steve www.steve-banks.org Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 10, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hi Steve, I wasn't suggesting the book was expensive (although the local library service was!) I would pay that sort of cash for a book the whole contents of which were valuable to me. The problem in the case of your book is a GW/SR modeller these couple of interregionals are the only bit of the book I can use. Thanks for coming on and contributing to the thread, and good luck with the book Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30851 Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Steve, I would like to thank you for producing what was for me one of the best books in the last year. So sorry that the first quote I made from it I spotted a formatting error! I was a little dubious at first about buying it - living in California means I cannot see it before buying so there is always a risk and too many times recently I have been disappointed. But in this case I took the risk and I got what I was looking for - so thanks. As for cost - try buying the US passenger train books. You can spend hundreds of dollars on the books about one particular train! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Now that Dropbox is back up and running again, here is a summary of the formations from the carriage working books that I have or have access to for the BR period, which is my period of interest. Far from being a pointless telephone directory, this summary enables the reader to chart how the formations evolved over time. There is no such thing as a typical formation. The usual caveat is that what ran did not always match what was listed in the workings. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/Bournemouth-York_via_GC_14-1-14.pdf If anyone spots any errors, please let me know. Note that many published photos of the train were taken on Summer Saturdays, and the northbound train that day was not always the regular Monday-Friday formation, as this worked the relief service. Hence, photos don't tell the whole story. Note also that the trains appeared in several regions' carriage working books and they don't always list the same formation for a particular timetable. The WR books are probably the least reliable as the train merely passed through their region. The regular catering car used in the NER set for much of the 1950s was not a Gresley buffet car of the diagram modelled by Hornby. It was a different type, as explained in the notes. If anyone is interested in particular trains from any BR region, please ask as I might have the information somewhere in the 640 or so carriage working books that I have access to, especially if the question relates to the 1948-84 period, although regional coverage is patchy (ScR coverage is thin and WR and SR are best with the other regions somewhere in between). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted January 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2014 The SR also had a coach set for this working. Details are in the listing of coach sets here - http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html . Set 880 was the one for Bournemouth to York which had various changes over time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted January 13, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2014 Once again RM Web lives up to expectations. Thank you all for your expertise, generosity and kindness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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