Jump to content
 

Scalefour North 2014, April 12th/13th


Wizard of the Moor

Recommended Posts

I mentioned this last week, nothing should be allowed to be sold until one hour after gates open, Platitudes received as to see what could be done.

but with most things these days nobody has the balls to make it stick...

 

Customer service, really.... think a few lessons are required..

Link to post
Share on other sites

I mentioned this last week, nothing should be allowed to be sold until one hour after gates open, Platitudes received as to see what could be done.

but with most things these days nobody has the balls to make it stick...

 

Customer service, really.... think a few lessons are required..

 

Why an hour, why not two, or wait until the afternoon or until Sunday? What are all these prospective purchasers going to do, form a queue? But then someone will be at the front. <shock horror>  Perhaps we should employ a committee of the great and good of RMWeb to decide who is and isn't worthy to purchase things, or who is or isn't a proper modeller.

 

No matter how a sale of anything is arranged, if there are more people that want something than there are things available, some people are going to miss out.

 

And if someone buys something whether it's a house or a car or a brass kit, no matter what they've paid for it, it's theirs and if they subsequently want to sell it or smash it up, or burn it, that's their business.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I've been home in time to have a bit of nosh, a glass of wine and a catch up with my family's news after a super show.

 

Thank you to all the organisers who did a splendid job.

 

Thank you to my two partners who kept cheerful even when two locos failed and a strange short this afternoon stopped the down line running.

 

Thank you to the visitors with whom we had lots of amusing, informative and enjoyable conversations (and who voted us into second place). And my apologies for not always paying them full attention when I was trying to work out what to do next - operating a railway to timetable with full block working is no sinecure!

 

Thank you to all the exhibitors who were full of helpful comments ("I see your alarm worked today"), gentle advice and genuine, resourceful assistance when it was needed.

 

Thank you to the caterers who were overwhelmed by the numbers they had to serve. The exhibition had budgeted for 350 visitors but 450 turned up on the Saturday. So there were queues and the food ran out. Today it was fine - much quieter and the food was really good.

 

A few comments and answers to questions in earlier posts (I did did try "multiquote" but just cannot get the hang of it, so here goes...)

 

I heard from an authoritative source that Brighton Road is to be dismantled after the show. I find this amazing - Clecklewyke was started in the 1990s and is still nothing like finished. How do people work so fast and how can they bear to get rid of something that has been such a part of their lives?

 

I cannot comment on the Bring and Buy situation other than to say that one of those on the stand told me that certainly the intention was not to allow queue jumping. I really don't know what the answer is to this perennial problem (or is it just a perceived problem?). I only know that my friend Steve Griffiths obtained some beautifully-made box vans with sprung buffers and superb counter-balanced AJ couplings for less than the cost of the original Parkside kits.

 

Regarding the layout which seemed to have real running problems, this was only the second time it had been erected in its entirety, so little real testing had been possible. I thing everyone will agree that the locos and rolling stock - all scratch built models of little-known Victorian prototypes, and unique to the builder - are superb. I am sure that with more experience of exhibiting the problems will be ironed out.

 

Tony, there certainly were trains longer than 6 6-wheelers. Our Bradford-Liverpool expresses consisted of 6 bogies, including a restaurant car. Unfortunately we had to pull them with a Fowler 4F because Gormley Junction's Black Five had failed (and even Mike Ainsworth could not resuscitate it). When the other "bobbies" weren't looking it regularly exceeded the 15 mph limit across the crumbling Mill Gill viaduct. But if you want an impressive P4 roundy-roundy - wait for Dewsbury GN to reappear. That is really something!

 

And Clecklewyke. The people in town call it "cleckulwike" whereas those "up the hill", who think they know better, wrongly assume a French connection and pronounce it " Cleck - le- week".

 

Ponces!

 

Here's to next year, when my railway will have seven swans a-swimming and six geese a-flying ...

 

Ian

 

I must have missed the express when I was watching but I will be retrospectively impressed!

 

Next question, how on earth do you get such a big train on such a seemingly small layout?

 

I have seen Dewsbury GN as a work in progress and it is superb. Geoff Tiffany is a real craftsman. Mind you, he would be the first to tell you that a layout like that isn't knocked together in a few months. Even then, it will mainly have small locos and quite short trains cos that was what was on the real thing.

 

It would do the image of P4 a great deal of good if a few more such layouts were on the circuit but I would love to see something like another Adavoyle or Whetstone (which sadly got scrapped without ever realising its full potential as an exhibition layout).

 

Something like a High Dyke or Leicester South in P4 would really win my vote!

 

Having said that, most of my layouts are quite unambitious, so I shouldn't really be expecting others to produce monsters!

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess my point is that a reasonable solution was enacted by the Scaleforum organising team (notably John Armstrong) and yet the S4North team have allowed the questionable behaviour to continue.  The Scalefour Society need to apply some consistency to the B&B procedure and restore a bit of confidence that they are not just lining the pockets of others.  Also they definitely do not need to post a tantalising image of items for sale before the show opens to enflame the situation.

Michael,

 

as I've said before in this thread and excepting the one particular individual you mention, it is difficult to see what you can do to run a B&B or s/h stall in a way that is equitable for all visitors to a show irrespective of what time they arrive or on which day they attend. I don't think that the way the S4 B&B is run has changed and perhaps this debate shows that a review of the procedure is needed. However, I reiterate that it was only the publication of that photo of that one collection of items, unique in my experience, that has caused this debate.

 

As for your reference to one particular "manager" of the S4 B&B, I would point out that one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. That person took the opportunity several  years ago to use his position on the B&B stand to promote in advance and sell a particular product he had "manufactured" in excess of his own requirements and in direct competition with several rent paying traders. I don't recall any criticism of that.

 

Dealing with the disposal of estates is a different matter entirely form running a B&B. It is not any easy task (a friend of mine is doing it and it has taken many man hours over several years). It may be that clubs and societies in general could look to this as a commission based service but I don't think it is relevant to this discussion.

 

Jol

Link to post
Share on other sites


I nearly forgot the Bring and Buy. Here's the scoop from the horse's mouth:

Nothing was sold, reserved or otherwise cherry-picked from the Bring and Buy stand before the show opened to the public. Nothing, nowt, nil, zilch, nada.

No-one got special treatment, no matter what. Don't matter who you are, what you do or where you come from.

Anyone can arrange to have a box behind the stand to store their goodies and save carrying them about. At your own risk - some items did get nicked.

All the items in the photo that I posted were on the stand at 10.00am on the Saturday. Every. Single. One. There were some additional items, not pictured, that the collection's previous owner had offered to a friend and I acted as middleman to arrange pick-up of these at the show. As the buyer is building a very accurately researched model of an NER branchline then I could hardly refuse to help.

 

I am very well aware of what used to happen at the Scaleforum Bring & Buy, having had a similar experience to mgilbert some years ago. I am also well aware of the changes that were made when the new team took over and there is, and always has been, a similar policy at Scalefour North.

I hope that clears up any confusion. I'll be happy to discuss the workings of the Bring & Buy further offline.

 

 

Iainp.

 

As the person who initially expressed my disappointment that the B&B was stripped of NER goodies.May I state that the above statement satisfies me that the sale was pretty much as fair as could be made in the circumstances.

I had intended to arrive for the sale as close to 1000AM as possible,(like many others) but was  delayed arriving at the stand 1020am.I fully realised that this delay would in all certainty have cost me my chance.My observation that the kits must have sold in pretty short order  was a rueful observation on this.

 

As I stated in my reply to Worsdell Forevers posting,who incidentally did manage to get some kits so some modellers did get them,I have no problem with people beating me in the que and going on to build the kits,that's what its all about after all.

 

However with regard to "bulk buying" and I don't know it this went on or not, might I make a plea that enthusiasts show discretion and only buy the number of kits they are likely to actually build and leave some for the rest of us.

 

With regard to "Bulk Buying" for resale on E-bay etc. and again I don't know if this went on or not,I have already stated my position on this in earlier postings.If any "enthusiast" purchased any kit with the sole intention of reselling for profit you are not an enthusiast or modeller but a parasitic form of lowlife.

 

 

Edit:To change parasitical to parasitic.




 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The assertion that nothing was sold before public opening time simply doesn't square with Pete's confirmation that an item was bought for him at 9.50am, and my own observation that despite extremely slow processing of payments, almost the entire D & S range had gone from the stall by 10.04 or 10.05am.

 

Were items just heaped into boxes indiscriminately by one or two people, and put aside with a promise to pay the (unknown?) total cost later?

 

How can it possibly be fair for one or two to be allowed to scoop a massive number of kits at sub-market prices, highly likely to re-appear on eBay at a huge profit, while others who would like the chance to buy and build for themselves get nothing?

 

The repeated mention of "risk of items being left unsold" is unrealistic in this case. Who could honestly imagine that there would be any chance of a choice range of attractively priced and not-normally-available kits remaining unsold with so many serious modellers around at a show of this kind?

 

If the fear of unsold items is genuine, then ration the number sold to each individual during the first day and half of the show and allow the profiteers to clean up only on the final afternoon....

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

It is quite sad that Scalefour North 2014 or at least the RMWeb "take" on the event, will now probably be remembered not for the modelling on display but for a row about the bring and buy stand, which has gained far more coverage than the rest of the show put together.

 

So what happened to all those goodies then? With my best "Columbo" dirty mac on, two "witnesses" say that they were all on the stand at 10.00am and most had gone by 10.04am.  So did the first customer of the day pretty much buy the lot as there wouldn't have been time to process lots of individual sales? Or was there a mad scrum with lots of staff to deal with payments and several people buying a few each very quickly?

 

Is there anybody who was there and can actually tell us what happened between 10.00 and 10.04 rather than us relying on heresay and supposition?

 

Just one more thing..............

 

It is very difficult to regulate such things and there are always people who want to make a quick financial killing. One poster on RMWeb even bragged about doing such a thing on the Bachmann Collectors Club thread as if they had been clever.

 

It is a shame that such behaviour is part of the hobby but it is and we probably have to learn to live with it.

 

Tony 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jol,

 

Who is Michael? Been called a lot of things in the past most of them a lot ruder than that. The concept of Flux Wars is an interesting new take on Gauge Wars! :-)

 

Seriously though, I think we are coming at this from different directions but reaching the same conclusion. Consistency or a lack of consistency (perceived or real) are at the root of this.

 

Cheers...Morgan

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jol,

 

Who is Michael? Been called a lot of things in the past most of them a lot ruder than that and the concept of Flux Wars is an interesting new take on Gauge Wars! :-)

 

Seriously though, I think we are coming at this from different directions but reaching the same conclusion. Consistency or a lack of consistency (perceived or real) are at the root of this.

 

Cheers...Morgan

Morgan

 

mea culpa, I apologise. Why did I think you were a Michael? Perhaps we all should drop pseudonyms and use our full names.

 

You are right that transparent consistency is probably what's needed from the organisers. Running such events isn't easy and those volunteers that were involved in S4N should be thanked for their efforts in putting on what, as TBG points out, was a very good show.

 

Jolyon Wilkinson

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Mods should ban users who only use a 'nom-de-plume', too often it can become a 'nom-de-guerre'.

 

I was at the show briefly on Sunday. All too briefly because my cold got the better of me and  I had to retire. Unfortunately the B&B was in Manchester!

 

I got the impression that the exhibits were superb (but then that is to be expected) and there were the usual suspects re traders. Bought some essential supplies but then disappeared. I had planned to go to the Rochdale show on route but that went by the board too.

 

A shame about the controversy over the bring and buy, but it was always open to abuse.

 

Regards

Link to post
Share on other sites

I must have missed the express when I was watching but I will be retrospectively impressed!

 

 

Blink and it was gone...

 

I'm sure you know that there are plenty of very large P4 layouts but they tend to stay at home. And, as you say, they take a long time to build, so most of us who are past retirement age (and I guess that is most P4 modellers) take the view that we actually want to complete something before being grimly reaped. So, unless you are young, like Jim (New Street) S-W, an early starter with a long-term plan, like Mike (Preston) Norris, or a sizeable group like the Mostyn or Calcutta Sidings Groups, modest it has to be.

 

And, of course, there was Heckmondwike, but that's a long time ago.

 

(Good to see us back to discussing modeling rather than the distraction that was the B&B!)

 

Ian

Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps the way to deal with the alleged 'profiteering' at the Bring and Buy stands is for the society to mark up popular items to at least their e-bay prices and then be willing to haggle lower prices after 3 o'clock on the Sunday afternoon. If the markup was shared with the selling member, who could possibly object to the society making more money for themselves and their members?

 

Of course, having the bait of cheaper b&b prices on Sunday afternoon could alter the whole attendance dynamics of shows.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The perennial problem of the Bring-and-Buy is one of those things that has no easy solution unless, as Bill says, you charge eBay levels from the very start to put off the eBay traders who have no interest in the show as a whole and are only there to raid the place for their online sales.

 

It's a bit like ticket sales for shows, concerts, etc. - most of the time you can't get any tickets from the original source because the touts have bought them all within the first few minutes.

 

I tend to avoid the Bring-and-Buy; it is rarely a happy experience and has all the cachet of a riot breaking out in a Syrian bread queue.

 

It's not just D&S kits that can go for the stratospheric prices - anything perceived as exclusive or hard-to-get will command similar "unwelcome" attention, so anything labelled Ultrascale, Sharman, Brassmasters, Mitchell, Finney, Bradwell, will (and does) fall into that bracket.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the idea of a B&B stall was for people to dispose of their unwanted items - to anyone who is prepared to pay the asking price.  Doesn't bother me who buys my stuff so long as I get the money at the end of the weekend.  If you are bothered about this as a seller then take the time and trouble to e-bay it yourself.  You may (or may not!) get more but at least the B&B price is guaranteed.

 

At Wakefield show the 'secondhand items' stall is at the far end of the hall.  I've known grown men be trampled underfoot in the rush to get there first at opening time on a Friday.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Something akin to Bill's idea had also struck me as a simple possibility that would guarantee best price for the seller, likelihood of selling all, and some sort of fairness to individual private buyers rather: Open with the "good stuff" at eBay rates or above on the Saturday morning, drop the prices by a percentage half-way through the day, drop them further on the Sunday morning and further still for the Sunday afternoon. Those who really want the stuff at a true market price can stampede for it at the start, those who want a bargain can wait, in the hope that it will still be available. Profiteer's won't be able to scoop up the whole lot before anybody else gets a look-in.

 

A bit like a controlled Dutch Auction.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But some objections, unless strongly and repeatedly made, are all too easily forgotten in the course of time, or become regarded as unimportant because there was no lasting "fuss", with the result that cause of the dissatisfaction is allowed to recur at a later date........

Link to post
Share on other sites

But some objections, unless strongly and repeatedly made, are all too easily forgotten in the course of time, or become regarded as unimportant because there was no lasting "fuss", with the result that cause of the dissatisfaction is allowed to recur at a later date........

 

Depends who you make them to. I'd suggest that an email to a Scalefour Society committee member would have far more chance of resolving any problems than making a fuss on this thread.

 

Andy

 

(who thoroughly enjoyed S4N and whose only purchase from the bring and buy stand was 5 Hamlet tins - ideal for storing 2mm scale etches in!).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I just express my thanks to the organisers/volunteers who organised this years show.My heart goes out to you at the moment, some of you are probably wondering why you even bother.

 

I've never organised a model rail show.Thank God. and I don't tend to volunteer for stuff if I can help it,but I used to organise the free Works Summer Barbecue every year.

 

Three of the more notable complaints I received;

1.Their wasn't enough food.   (only one complainant,the barbecue was free and almost unlimited free drink was also provided.)

 

2.When I arrived all the food was gone.   (the complainant arrived 3 hours after the scheduled start time.)

 

3.There was too many wasps.   (my fault this one, with my God-like powers I now realise I should have banished the wasps from the area for the duration of the barbecue.)

 

Moral of the story "You'll never please everybody all of the time."

 

The other moral might be "never volunteer for anything".That volunteers put in their own time,with little thanks,year in and year out to put on shows never ceases to amaze me.

 

I've visited Scalefour North five times now and I thought this years was the best.Great venue,Great Trade Presence,Great Atmosphere, same again next year please.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I thoroughly enjoyed my day there today. Much talking, some lovely modelling on display and a good range of traders.

 

I prefer the new venue. It is much better that everything was in one hall together, rather than the previous one, where corridors and the edges of the dining area were used as the main are wasn't big enough to hold everything.

 

There were some very nice layouts there although I will single out Flintfield for special mention. It looks great, is very nicely presented and was running really nicely. It was a good opportunity to personally congratulate the builder on his fine modelling and just as I was saying this, he was awarded the cup for the most popular layout.

 

Out of all the layouts there, most seemed to be running well when I watched them, with one exception, which is a "work in progress" layout which clearly still needs some "debugging" when it comes to operation.

 

The only thing I would suggest as an improvement would be in the balance of the types of layouts. Everything seemed to be based on short trains and slow running. The longest train I saw was a set of 6 carriages (6 wheelers) behind a tank engine on Brighton Road and I don't think that I saw anything move at above a scale 25mph.

 

Perhaps a bit more variety type of layout and operational style might improve this excellent show still further.

 

A nice "roundy roundy" with perhaps 6 or 7 bogie carriage trains running at 50 - 60 mph scale speeds would be an absolute winner if modelled to the sort of quality on view on the layouts there.

 

But that is a very minor niggle and I totally enjoyed a pretty much full day there with what was on show.

 

Tony

 

A very interesting comment and one I have heard many many times before often from other modellers less familiar with S4 exhibitions.

Unfortunately it would certainly look to the casual observer that modelling to the wheel standards demanded for S4 usually means playing it a bit safe and results in end to end layouts and short 'safe' trains..sorry if I offend some but its a fact.

Scale length trains running at scale speeds reliably although difficult on S4 can of course be achieved but it does suggest by the obvious absence of such layouts that it is indeed a great deal more trouble for many and the safer option of EM is generally used for such layouts.

There are of course exceptions... 'Charlotte Road' and 'Mostyn' are both large continious run layouts that also operate beautifully and at scale speeds.

The first time I saw these layouts I was truly impressed and the more so when I realised it was S4..as it was unusual to see modelling on that scale in S4.

So come on you guys..its time to show us 4mm fine scale and EM modellers what you really can achieve.

 

The show was as always superb and this is in no way a criticism of the layouts that attended but it was interesting to read the post on this subject and thought it warranted at least a reply.

 

We travel down from Scotland every year for this show and it was great to see so many old friends and pick up all the bits and bobs from the superb trade that is a hallmark of this show..venue great too.

 

Downsides for me after being exposed to no compromise engineering ..is coming back home to my own feeble attempts on the modelling bench!

 

On the catering..lets not be too hard on the guys..they were a bit overwhelmed but the prices charged were very reasonable and what I did have was very good.

 

A great show and as the majority of the public are all experienced modellers the general feeling is of being among friends and colleagues.. no barriers complete the picture..well done to all.

 

Dave 

Link to post
Share on other sites

A very interesting comment and one I have heard many many times before often from other modellers less familiar with S4 exhibitions.

Unfortunately it would certainly look to the casual observer that modelling to the wheel standards demanded for S4 usually means playing it a bit safe and results in end to end layouts and short 'safe' trains..sorry if I offend some but its a fact.

Scale length trains running at scale speeds reliably although difficult on S4 can of course be achieved but it does suggest by the obvious absence of such layouts that it is indeed a great deal more trouble for many and the safer option of EM is generally used for such layouts.

There are of course exceptions... 'Charlotte Road' and 'Mostyn' are both large continious run layouts that also operate beautifully and at scale speeds.

The first time I saw these layouts I was truly impressed and the more so when I realised it was S4..as it was unusual to see modelling on that scale in S4.

So come on you guys..its time to show us 4mm fine scale and EM modellers what you really can achieve.

 

The show was as always superb and this is in no way a criticism of the layouts that attended but it was interesting to read the post on this subject and thought it warranted at least a reply.

 

We travel down from Scotland every year for this show and it was great to see so many old friends and pick up all the bits and bobs from the superb trade that is a hallmark of this show..venue great too.

 

Downsides for me after being exposed to no compromise engineering ..is coming back home to my own feeble attempts on the modelling bench!

 

On the catering..lets not be too hard on the guys..they were a bit overwhelmed but the prices charged were very reasonable and what I did have was very good.

 

A great show and as the majority of the public are all experienced modellers the general feeling is of being among friends and colleagues.. no barriers complete the picture..well done to all.

 

Dave 

The problem with a large P4 layout is that it takes more room than a 00 layout due to larger minimum radii. This then restricts the exhibitions due to space and transport costs. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with a large P4 layout is that it takes more room than a 00 layout due to larger minimum radii. This then restricts the exhibitions due to space and transport costs. 

I take your point but there are plenty large EM layouts with similar large radii and transport costs and space don't seem to be a restriction there.

When these layouts exhibit they are invariably very impressive.

Dewsbury Midland takes up a bit of space for instance and  I am sure a suitable P4 layout could be applied within the same footprint..our own layout is 34ft x 12ft and is welcomed at shows up and down the country.

However I do accept a previous comment stating that the time taken to put together a large P4 layout is much greater..I hadn't given that proper consideration so apologies there.

Anyway..good to be discussing something other than the B&B stand!

 

Dave 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I take your point but there are plenty large EM layouts with similar large radii and transport costs and space don't seem to be a restriction there.

When these layouts exhibit they are invariably very impressive.

I must have missed these as I can't think of one other then Retford. I only visit ExpoEM, Scaleforum,Railex and Chatham where large layouts tend to be other than that it is small local exhibitions which don't have the space generally. I also think that the cost to an exhibition is a major consideration in todays climate. The layout I am building will end up as 28 feet long although the viewable will be 18 feet. As it is a real location then it will only be short trains as per the prototype. We were building a model of Cole on the S&DJR but the group has contracted and interet waned so the new layout is a North Eastern layout as that is my interest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...