AlexH Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I've regained an interest in model railways that I haven’t had since my teens, mainly because of lack of space. with the recent realisation that I could fit a layout in my home office space I've started to put plans in motion. The area available isn't that great but I'd like to get as much operational interest in as possible while still retaining a somewhat plausible feel to it. I'm aiming for something set in the late 50's early 60's in an urban Midlands area. I'm very much a beginner as a rail enthusiast and while I have a desire to run trains that would be authentic to the area my knowledge of what those would be is limited to say the least so my starting list of requirements is perhaps a little naïve, they are as follows. To be able to run large passenger loco's such as A2' (probably with an undersized amount of carriages, from my initial plans it seems I'd have a train length of 5ft possible) To be able to run a 9f, I just want this train, it's my favourite. To include a station, goods area and loco depot. To Include a branch line plus mainline. And that really was everything I had in mind so with that said here is my first draft of a track plan, currently the track doesn't join the fiddle yard, obviously it will at some point but I won't bother working the points out for that until I'm entirely sure that the rest of the plan is finalised. I'd love some feedback, most of the operational side of the way I've planned this is total guesswork based on looking at other peoples layouts on this forum with no knowledge of prototype methods so if anything stands out as utterly comical I'd really like to change that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I think the basics are right but as it stands I 'think' it'll be hard to use the station efficiently. The way the cross-overs are organised requires, I believe, a lot of 'wrong track' or cross track running which of course prevents other movements. I'm about to head to work so can't add much right now, however the biggest issue I can see is that you really need cross-overs on the curve, especially one to allow departure from the right two lines as quickly as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I had a real problem with that exact thing when designing it, I'll be using peco code 75 track and i had a problem with getting any point work to go around that corner nicely which is why the majority of it ended up much further around on a straight section, I really don't want to build my own points so I was struggling with a solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 24, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2014 I agree with Katier that there is not much wrong with your plan - indeed a lot to like. First, minor, point is that you could extend the goods yard headshunt/spur a bit further round the curve and under the bridge that hides the entrance to the fiddle yard. More interestingly, by moving the first right-hand crossover to the left and using a curved RH turnout, you should be able to bring your platforms further up towards the second crossover and leave out the third crossover completely. This will enable you to have much longer platforms which will look far better even if you have short trains that do not fill them (you could have longer trains if you have a traverser fiddle yard rather than pointwork). You may want to be a bit careful about having all those goods sidings in a rather inaccessible location at the top RH corner. You would certainly need a good coupling system such as Kadees to shunt it reliably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Thanks Joseph, I must admit, beavering away on a plan it was easy to overlook that some of the track is quite a reach away! however having looked at a couple of youtube vids of kadees couplings in action that certainly seems a good solution and quite a bit more attractive than the standard coupling rtr stock is fitted with. I think extending the platforms is going to be a good solution it'll make the point work around the corner look more like it's designed to service the station. The problem I have with the fiddle yard and which isn't shown on the plan is that the door to the room is right next to the turntable (fiddle yard width is 15 inches) so I don't really have the option of having a traverser which as far as I can tell would need to be quite wide to operate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 My first revision of the plan with extended platforms and adjusted head shunt on the goods yard. Something I'm not sure of now is whether there is a precedent for what would be a road bridge crossing platforms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It looks good but I think a few tweaks would be beneficial if operating is to be a pleasure and not a chore. I wonder about the pointwork for the hidden sidings, I would normally use two three way points side by side, two curved crossovers facing and trailing in the tunnel approach and I would connect the innermost hidden siding to the inner main line the station side of the 3 way point. but your platforms are now 8 coaches, 3 longer than your hidden sidings, so maybe a different approach, take three long sidings off the outer main line in the tunnel with a crossover just inside the tunnel mouth allowing access to the inner main. then bring the fourth road off the outer main to a crossover to the inner, maybe a double slip to give three long 8 coach and four short 5 coach roads. I designed a layout for a friend 25 years ago and getting the hidden sidings right was the key, it went through a vast number of paper pernutations until we had to accept we could not have simultanoeus arrivals and departures but with ten foot sidings and seven foot platforms it works very wel and we never have to worry unduly about train lengths, if they fit the platform they fit the hidden sidings. You can get 7 sidings to the foot with 44mm track spacing so 8 in 15 inches I think you need to think about how you will operate the station, trains arrive, disgorge passengers, the pilot pulls the stock out, this releases the train engine to shed and the stock goes to carriage sidings. I don't see anywhere forn the pilot to lurk, maybe a short spur off the curve to the outermost platform? I don't see any carriage sidings long enough for a complete train. Nomal practice would be for the two left hand as you run in platforms to be for arrivals and all platforms available for departures, with shunting taking place on the outgoing line The short platform road would be more use if it joined the branch by the turntable with an extra point other wise the net platform has to be kept clear to allow departurse to the branch, the facing crossover is still necessary but the other facing crossover at the country end of the station is almost unusable, a trailing crossover further round the curve would be far more useful allowing an arrival at the outer platform as stock is removed fron the other side of the island which always looks good. I assume the Branch climbs from the canal to a terminus above the hidden sidings? 7ft X 15 " should give quite a reasonable branch terminus, especially an urban one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 My plan for the station was that a train would arrive and a new engine would back on to it from the sheds and take it away on it's new journey, I hadn't considered that trains just didn't operate in this way and it all seemed quite logical, to me at least! now I look at your suggestion about carriage sidings and it all makes perfect sense but as I look at the plan and how that could be incorporated It becomes clear that I could only have one or the other, I'd have to get rid of pretty much everything else on the layout to incorporate sidings big enough and even then I’m not sure how I’d do it with a flow that made any kind of sense, so I think in this regard I'll have to make a large compromise and go with the operating procedure I'd imagined. I don't know that I’ll operate trains the full length of the platforms, if I can find a way of incorporating them in to the fiddle yard then sure but I'm thinking that's going to be a real problem, we'll see. I see the problem with the short platform now you've pointed it out and I'll have a look at changing that, although getting points to fit on that curve is quite a struggle. I'd originally thought that the branch line would just go through a separate tunnel mouth and join the other tracks in the storage area but your suggestion of raising it and having a branch station on top is an excellent idea which I think I’ll do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted January 25, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2014 My plan for the station was that a train would arrive and a new engine would back on to it from the sheds and take it away on it's new journey, I hadn't considered that trains just didn't operate in this way and it all seemed quite logical, to me at least! now I look at your suggestion about carriage sidings and it all makes perfect sense but as I look at the plan and how that could be incorporated It becomes clear that I could only have one or the other, I'd have to get rid of pretty much everything else on the layout to incorporate sidings big enough and even then I’m not sure how I’d do it with a flow that made any kind of sense, so I think in this regard I'll have to make a large compromise and go with the operating procedure I'd imagined. You could always assume the carriage sidings are off-scene, either down the branch or the main, so the station pilot removes the arrived coaches to the fiddle yard, then brings them back for their next departure? But I'm guessing the way you originally intended to do it was probably used more often than not at most terminals, apart from the big London stations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Version 3 of the plan changed the point work around the station, the branch platform now has much better accessibility. I'm quite happy with the way the station approach looks now. I've added the fiddle yard points, the idea is there will be a motorised traversing track at one end of it which will enable loco's to travel up on an empty track to the hidden turntable and then rejoin the front of the train. I tried to get longer tracks in for a couple of 8 feet long trains but it was having non of it, as soon as I add crossovers it pops the radius of the curve right out and carving holes in the wall is going to be pushing my luck with someone just a little bit too far I don't know that I'm entirely happy with the way the storage turned out on the plan but I'm not sure what else I can do, fitting pointwork on that curve is a real problem, as it has been with the rest of the layouts curves, The only way I could get it all to fit was by narrowing down to 1 track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26, 2014 My first revision of the plan with extended platforms and adjusted head shunt on the goods yard. Something I'm not sure of now is whether there is a precedent for what would be a road bridge crossing platforms. Plenty of stations that have road bridges crossing above the platforms. Just in London we have Victoria and Liverpool Street. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26, 2014 Plenty of stations that have road bridges crossing above the platforms. Just in London we have Victoria and Liverpool Street. and one more the size of the station in the plan, marylebone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted January 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2014 That turntable in the top left hand corner of your latest plan (presumably hidden under scenery) looks a real hostage to fortune. I suggest you use loco lifts to remove and reverse engines in the fiddle yard instead ........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 It is a bit out of the way but as I planned to make the entire upper part of that section removable I think it'll be ok, I wouldn't have been happy permanently sealing that section in anyway, if something can go wrong it will! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 and one more the size of the station in the plan, marylebone looking at marylebone really gives me some ideas for the building part of the structure, if not a little ambitious haha Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 After having been busy with work for a few days I've had time to ponder the track plan and I've come to the conclusion that in the space available OO isn't really the best way forward for what I'd like to do, it feels a little cramped and I don't like the idea of running prototypically short trains so with that in mind I think I'll change to N gauge which introduces a new problem, with the space to make something prototypical available, where to make! so now I'm scouring Google for ideas, looking for a mainline terminus in the Midlands (although I'm now considering London too) with close by goods facilities and motive power depot that would fit on the L shape available. Marylebone looked interesting but the goods facility is in an awkward position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Birmingham Moor Street in goods days would be perfect - can even include the tunnel through the Snow hill so you have the station in the middle with two fiddle yards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Hello.... Yes, plenty of stations had road bridge over platforms......contemplating such a layout plan with a city terminus within retaining walls and road bridges across.....and then into a tunnel...All the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thanks for the replies, It's been most helpfull in working on designs I had a look at moor street but it wasn't really what I'm looking for in a layout, I've decided in the end to make one up rather than do a prototype and then to include architectural elements from various locations I like, I've attached my N gauge plan and I'm thinking this is just about done now, unless someone points out some hideous operating error that'll bring the whole thing to a grinding halt. there will be a pause once my plan is finalised, room needs clearing of a lot of tat and a bay window that needs replacing, fun fun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahorse Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 A bit late now, but how often will you need to dismantle to get at the window, and would the whole thing be better the other way round with the fiddle yard next to the window? i have always loved looking at layout plans, and devising ever more complex operating patterns (completely disregarding the time and trouble to actually build and wire the layout!) In your case, I have a few concerns about locations of conflict between shunting moves and arrivals/departures. You obviously want an intensive service of fast and slow trains to justify the four track layout. Start with the fiddle yard. A train arrives and needs a turned loco on the other end. Where does this come from, and what happens to the old loco before its next operation? Similarly at the terminus, you will be left with a large number of locos needing to get to and from the turntable. Every move involving the carriage sidings blocks one or more running lines. I think you will suffer from a lack of headshunts clear of the main tracks. But don't panic! You are not going to build it all at once. Start with two tracks. Let the pointwork develop to suit your requirements. Then add more platforms, sidings etc as your traffic builds up. Or run a service of Voyagers, HST's, 158's, 142's etc which will suit your plan very well!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Thanks for the reply Seahorse! you've certainly given me a few things to consider. The width is dictated by a door being right next to where the fiddle yard is, giving only 15 or 16 inches of space on that side but that's not really a problem, the likely hood is that the window access will be rarely needed, just for cleaning once in a while but it's better to be safe than sorry and if I don't add it I can guarantee a requirement for it will arise! A busy service is something I very much have in mind as I have a particular interest in computer automation, although not included on the plan I'm working on a design for a traversing turntable using off the shelf CNC parts and Arduino control, this will sit at the far end of the fiddle and facilitate turning the locos, now in my mind the design will work fine but until I build a prototype I have no real idea if it will be that good so it may end up as just a traverse with a separate turntable near the entrance to the fiddle which would need quite a redesign of that pointwork. Regarding the terminus end I was finding it hard to find examples of terminus track plans so a lot of it was guesswork combined with info from people in this thread, I imagined a train would arrive, the new train would back on to it or the pilot would take it away to the sidings and then the old train would slip away to the engine shed, it would all be rather simple and run smoothly because that's how you imagine things when you haven't got a clue what you're doing but then that's also a large part of the appeal, I'm quite versed in modelling and computing but I lack knowledge of how real trains operate. So, how do the real stations deal with the problem, do they have loco's prepared and waiting in sidings closer to the station? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Probably a good pair of examples of major stations are Marylebone in London and Snow Hill in birmingham. The two pictures below are the respective track plans and should give you an idea of the complexity going into major stations. Marylebone is obviously an outright major terminus station and is also four track approach giving an idea of just how complex such services would be. http://hutton-web-design.co.uk/images/Marleybone.jpg While Snow-hill is a through station, it often operated as a terminus and thus had full termini facilites with turn table and carriage sidings. Ironically most terminating trains would have headed south, and the facilities are to the north, but there is absolutely nothing to stop you running a trackplan based on that purely in the northern direction. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/birmingham-snowhill/structures/gwrbsh1167.jpg In Steam era you would have had several different types of service. Tender Hauled Express Tender Hauled Inter City stopping services Probably Tender Hauled Parcels Tank engine hauled commuter or suburban services Tank hauled services from branch lines Railcars Railcars and some of the branch services could just arrive and depart, without turning as sometimes they would be push-pull services so the coach could lead (GWR 14xx and NER BTP are two examples of loco's equipped for such services. Suburban services would be larger trains (4 coaches minimum, while the branches topped out at around 2 typically) but by using tank engines their intensity could be maintained as they would run-round the train, couple up and depart without moving to the turntable etc. The Tender hauled services are your tricky one and would need to be turned. However I'd expect, more often than not, for the loco to self release and head for servicing, rather than be pilot released. The Pilot could then shunt the empties either further up the platform for the return service, or to a carriage siding if they needed to be stored of serviced away from the platform. I imagine ( based on modern practice) during the day, the intercity and express services would usually be given a interior tidy and restock at the station platform most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold fishytrains Posted February 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2014 I like the way you have developed your ideas and will be watching your progress with interest. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Another interesting one to look at is Hull Paragon. Due to it being a terminus approached from two directions it is fed by a triangle junction which form, in effect, a 4 track approach to the station. The other interesting fact is the loco servicing was done at the junction which is probably around half a mile from the station. The depot was accessible via extra tracks, however, so light loco movements could occur without impeding normal services on the mainline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexH Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 I was having a look at adding a bit more track and having the engine shed join further down towards the platform but I couldn't see a way of doing that effectively without the loco then having to go right the way back up the mainline again in order to get on the correct platform, so in the end did nothing with it. I'll see if I can find any pictures of Hull Paragon to take a look at, thanks for that info and that in your previous post, Katier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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