3D printing class 25 parts .... Also class 20,37, 2mm and 7mm wagons and 1/32 bogies

[hayfield]

Hi John, sounds like your friend has bought s Solidscape printer. I've hear very good things about this and plan on using one for my own kit project.

 

Most of the problems with 3D printing is getting suitable resolution and fine build layers. This then creates more work finishing the print to make a usable master. Solidscape claim to be albe to obtain a resolution in excess of 4000dpi and a build layer of only half a thou at its finest settings. Obviously cost per print is somewhat expensive but having viewed some of the prints this type of machine can produce personally, I firmly believe that you'll get what you pay for.

 

As a side note, I think 'print' would be the correct term for this machine as it deposits the wax layers in a very similar way to a inkjet printer.

 

Maybe your friend may consider doing modelling prints as a side business as well?

 

He may be willing to, I had a quick chat with him at the weekend, and he is keen to do something railway like. If he will not he knows some one else who takes on work

[hayfield]

Hi John, sounds like your friend has bought s Solidscape printer. I've hear very good things about this and plan on using one for my own kit project.

 

Most of the problems with 3D printing is getting suitable resolution and fine build layers. This then creates more work finishing the print to make a usable master. Solidscape claim to be albe to obtain a resolution in excess of 4000dpi and a build layer of only half a thou at its finest settings. Obviously cost per print is somewhat expensive but having viewed some of the prints this type of machine can produce personally, I firmly believe that you'll get what you pay for.

 

As a side note, I think 'print' would be the correct term for this machine as it deposits the wax layers in a very similar way to a inkjet printer.

 

Maybe your friend may consider doing modelling prints as a side business as well?

 

He may be willing to, I had a quick chat with him at the weekend, and he is keen to do something railway like. If he will not he knows some one else who takes on work

[simon br blue]

Done a bit more work on the class 24 cab.

 

Here's a pic of work in progress.

 

[simon br blue]

Finished a basic model for each of the cab types and have ordered some more test parts from shapeways (mostly bogie parts) but will post results when they arrive.

 

[simon br blue]

A quick update on the class 25 parts.

 

I tried a print of the complete bogie but after ordering it I wasw told that it was not possible to print it due to the minimum wall thickness of some of the parts of the bogie. I have made a couple of changes and will try again when I next order.

 

 

I did manage to get 2 other bogie parts printed. On the left is the components for the 24 bogie seperated and put onto a spur (to keep them together when being printed and to test how thin a part can be). It is printed in a material called Alumide which was ment to be smoother than 'white strong and flexible' (used on the part to the right which is the same except it has a bogie attached). I might try to make a resin casting of the bogie sideframe and then purchase sets of the detail parts to make a bogie for the Steve Beattie 24 shells I have.

 

 

Below is the latest 4mm class 25 cab printed in Alumide. I tried this new material because it was ment to have a smoother surface finish but looking at it I think it is worse than white strong and flexible material. I also think that it must shrink at some point as the cab is smaller than previous cabs even though it was ment to be 1mm wider so it would match the Bachmann body. I have also added the horn grill covers near the headcode box and the lip around the headcode glass.

 

 

 

Below is a pic of 3 different cabs made from 3 different materials. I have to say that I think the smoothest is 'white detail' (right in pic) but hte only problen is this material doesn't show the fine surface detail.

 

 

I have already made some changes to the cabs above to produce V4. This will have the tail lights included and should hopefully fit the Bachmann shell perfectly. I will also get a 24 cab printed in 4mm and a 7mm cab profile (to see how it matches upto a Steve Beattie shell).

 

[S.A.C Martin]

I'm watching this topic with great interest - some fab work you are doing there. With regards the pieces for the bogie as presented above, did you design them to come off a sprue in this way? If so that's a great idea, allowing more pieces to be made in the process.

[simon br blue]

Just ordered a couple more parts from shapeways.

 

I also had a quote back from Fineline and the price for a 4mm 25.3 cab was £150 in total. So I'll stick with shapeways at least until I've got the cab shape correct.

[lmnp]

Hi,

 

An article on the BBC News website today seems relevant to this topic:

 

BBC News

 

 

Regards

 

Richard

[simon br blue]

Got the most recent print from shapeways.

 

The first part is a complete class 24 bogie in 7mm printed in 'black strong and flexible'. I'm happy with the detail and that the steps and pipe run have printed OK There is only a couple of bits of brake rigging that I would need to add before using it (possibly also a couple of coats of paint to smooth the surface).

 

 

Below I have put it under a class 24 shell (without wheels).

 

 

I also has a 4mm class 24 and 25 printed in different materials to see how the tail light detail would show up. The camera doesn't show the detail very well so I've given the 24 cab a coat of primer to see if it helps.

 

 

I also quickly blu tacked the cabs on to see how they lined upto a Bachmann and Hornby 25 bodies.

 

[hollywoodfoundry]

Fineline Prototyping in the US have now introduced what they call 'Micro Resolution' builds in a new material. I sent one of my drawings to them to have a test build done so I could evaluate the quality of the process.

 

The item is the side of a diesel locomotive hood section. It is only 40mm by 17mm in size and 2mm thick and the height of the raised louves is a mere 0.18mm. The hinges are only 0.1mm high, the door knobs are 0.5mm in diameter and 0.42mm high, with a domed top.

 

I think you would agree the resolution is stunning, despite my poor photography.

 

The cost however, is high at present. This one cost me the equivalent of £112.00 including shipping charge.

 

Finally, the process is now at a resolution that is hard to fault. And there is no surface texture to the part, everything has a clean glossy finish to it.

[James Hilton]

That looks superb but how many would you need to get for it to be anything like cost effective!

[hollywoodfoundry]

That looks superb but how many would you need to get for it to be anything like cost effective!

 

Well, you would need to spend a lot of money to use it for just one model. The idea is to use the 3D build as a casting master to produce bodies or parts for sale. It would be terribly expensive at the present rate to build your own models that way.

[craigwelsh]

Could you show a resin casting of that when you do one, preferably painted grey or something to show the detail. That master does look excellent though and i'd agree its not of a useful resolution. The sandbox filler or fuel filler part is the most impressive bit.

 

I guess its a case of waiting now for the price to come down as the process speeds up and more machines of this quality are available. 2mm models might be cost effective (wagons..) to do but 4mm sounds a bit further off at that price unless you pantograph milled it up in scale!

[hollywoodfoundry]

This part is to be a test, so it will not end up being painted. The next process is to lost wax cast the part in a form of special bronze metal. This will destroy the original part in the photograph. Then, the bronze master will be used to make a spin-cast mould so the part can be produced in pewter. The whole idea of the test is to evaluate these 3 processes and determine what the shrinkage factor is.

 

The sandbox filler cap is exquisite in its detail, but probably will be removed from the production version as it will not cast very well.

 

I might say also that I examined this part under a 20X microscope last night, and it still stands up well.

 

I will try to photograph it better, when I can get the hang of this @!$!#@ DSLR camera.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Interesting to see the progress in this thread. The compensation for shrinkage moving through lost wax casting to create a hard metal master to make a soft metal mould tool, is going to be 'fun'. (I went to a classic tech presentation years ago by Davall (whose speciality is moulded gears) many years ago; still remember their chief designer saying "We make the master very precisely incorrect, so that the mould is incorrect in its' own way, so that the finished gear is dead right".)

[hollywoodfoundry]

Hmm, Reprap is fine if you want to produce parts that have the resolution of Lego. But not for anyone who is serious about the quality of their parts.

[craigwelsh]

Should I then forget about it (I can't spend 80K+ on a professional machine, due to lack of funds ) and get me the Elector Profiler? Or should I start learning how to etch brass?

The whole point of this 3D printing exercise is to make things you can't etch at least to my mind. Being inept at pattern making I like the idea of using it for complex curved surfaces for resin/wm casting or axlebox type applications.

 

Reprap could be used for some draft work to check the CAD I guess but its useless as a final product as is that Impossible Creations stuff.

[craigwelsh]

You're probably right. But a 3D milling machine would do the same and have a better surface finish.

I'd think the additive approach was more adaptable than removing material, not sure the 3D miller in your link at least could do the loco body on the impossible creations site. That home made miller was still £1300 and the resolution would depend on the bit fitted and the motor stepping.

 

Btw I don't want to knock the reprap project as its a great idea and a fun learning experience, it just wont give you engineered parts or masters just yet!

[ianmaccormac]

But it doesn't have to cost that much! A Roland CAMM 2 PNC 2300A, or later version, is what a lot of people use nowadays in the cottage market. They produce up to A4 bed size and approx 35mm Z axis. You can make many moulds from them - ask Roger Chivers. I bought mine for £300 on ebay 6 months ago. Roger has borrowed my Roland CAMM 3 - a light weight true 3D milling machine. Last one of those I saw went for 450 pounds. That takes 6mm tools, the CAMM 2 takes eigth or three sixteenth of an inch tools but you can cement carbide tools into a holder or grind your own D cutters from SS or carbide as Roger does or buy them from engraver spares. Great for injection moulding or resin tooling out of brass. Good for several thousand shots. If you can produce the drawings then the software that comes with the machines is enough to cut the masters.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Ian MacCormac in Blackpool

[ianmaccormac]

Tha CAMM 2 has holes in its sides enabling longer parts to be made by using a step and repeat drawings with pegs to line things up.

Cheap!

Or you could see if you can buy timeon the machines at yourlocal high schol. There may be a few teachers on here?

Cheers

Ian

[craigwelsh]

Could you do a 4mm solebar or similar on one of these Camm 2's Ian, or possibly a brick wall?

[ianmaccormac]

Hi Craig

We seem to be diverging from the 3D printing thread. Apologies.

I don't see why not. The key is the size of tooling you are using. The CAMM 2 works not as true 3D but 2D profiles at differing heights. The top surface of say a brick wall mould would be the outward surface of the bricks and the mortar inset would be as small as the tool you could cut. Same as laser engraving. Just draw it in a different colour and assign a different tool and or toolpath in Z axis to that colour. Set the order of colours and away you go.

A solebar, top surface would be the bolt heada so you would be removing a lot of material just to leave those and then the next surface would be the actual solebar.The cutting through the material to separate the solebar from whatever material it is you are cutting would be another colour.

But don't ask me to do it as I am so busy with all sorts of other projects! I have my first etched loco about to test build, need to do the masters for castings for that, am redoing 3 coaches at the moment and drawing two more locos! I put together the Brighton Circle magazine, and I try and get some modelling done. And then there is the day job! I manage the Nautical College at Fleetwood!

However, these machines do fantastically well with all kinds of materials up to brass and aluminium. I wouldn't use steel on them, not meaty enough for that. Obviously, the harder the material, the thinner the cut you can take but Roger manages to make moulds for all his injection moulding on them and so you can see what he can achieve. He uses a combination of 3D and 2D programmes but his brain capacity is absolutely fantastic - a trained graphic artist - like you?

HTH

Ian

[ianmaccormac]

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...E-/120581091935

 

There is one on ebay for just one hundred at the mo!

Looks like with the tools and software.

See what I mean?

Cheers

Ian

 

also for a more recent one see

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROLAND-EGX-300-ENGRAVING-MACHINE-/320543435347?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4aa1e0aa53

a bit more expensive that but brand new, the latest versions go for 3000 to 3500 GBP!

[hollywoodfoundry]

Should I then forget about it (I can't spend 80K+ on a professional machine, due to lack of funds ) and get me the Elector Profiler? Or should I start learning how to etch brass?

 

No, but I don't think the idea is to own one of these machines, at least not for the moment, they are far too expensive. The best thing is to use bureau services to have them made. I will eventually have to have 13 sections made like the one in the photo for a model I am going to manufacture.

 

As for milling mechines producing better results, not in my experience. I have a Sherline CNC mill that is capable of producing really top class work, but it does not come even close to the resolution of the item in my recent photograph. It is a pity that the photo does not do the item justice, because if you could see it in the flesh, so to speak, you would be amazed at the resolution.

[hollywoodfoundry]

I have gone back to my older camera to try and take better photographs of the 3D build, and I think these 3 show the part in a better light.

 

The first photo shows the smooth surface produced, but you can see a small amount of stepping in the louvres on the door. However that stepping is not really visible to the naked eye.

 

Note how fine the door latches and hinges are, the hinges are only 0.7 x 0.8mm in size, and 0.1mm high. That's 4 thou in the old money, and the peak resolution of this process is 1 thou.

 

The third photo shows the sand filler cap. This part is only 2mm in diameter and you can even see the heads of the two bolts that hold the cap lever in place. These are 0.2mm in diameter !!