More Swindon And Derby DMUs

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

  While i'm in DMU mode, and having just finally filed my tax return (with about three days left), it's time to start another project. I've been tinkering around with my Swindon Inter-City bodies again, members may recall i'd built three using DC Kits roof and ends pinched from a Class 120 kit, the sides are scratchbuilt. Since I required more than one unit, I gave it a major rethink, and decided to rebuild them, this time using spare Southern Pride roofs and chassis from scrap sleeping cars. This meant I could complete the 120 unit as intended, this will become one of the final batch with centre headcode. I've now knocked up six 126 cars, one unit is an original 1956 WR unit with buffet, the other is a 1959 Scottish unit with first-class centre trailer. I will eventually build at least one other 1956 unit with TFK, to provide a six-car set, a fourth set with two intermediate cabs may also be added. With the rebuild I've had to scratchbuild two full-width cabs, since I don't have spare DC cabs. The third photo shows the late 120 unit, the DC Kit sides aren't perfect, window sizes are wrong, which i'm starting to correct, but I can't do anything about the slightly incorrect window spacing. It might have been better to replace these sides with scratchbuilt, but it all takes time. The uppermost body (with green splurge) is a spare buffet (from where I built somebody a 2-car Central Wales unit), which I've converted into a non-buffet all second, there were only ten of these.

 

                                                                              Cheers, Brian.

 

Edited January 27, 2014 by Brian Kirby

[Brian Kirby]

Now since the two Swindon cabs have been returned for building to their original DC Class 120 Kit, I need to construct two new full-width Swindon 126 cabs. Now it's time for a bit of Origami with some 20thou plasticard, I've used thin stuff to make the folds and glazing easier, but it does need beefing up inside, particularly on the corners for strength, and which need to be rounded off on the outside corners. I start with an oversized square, which needs a horizontal folding crease roughly halfway up, and a central vertical crease, which opens up to a cut on the upper half. After a bit of trial and error removing plastic from the upper angles, I then re-join the upper sections, which pulls the whole front into shape and creates the negative rake of the cab front. When satisfied, I add reinforcement strapping to the inside, but allow space for the future glazing. Leaving this overnight to set, the next job is to introduce the new fronts to the slightly adjusted sides, constantly checking alignment and overall body width. When correct positioned, more reinforcement is added to the joins and inside corners. When set, the over-width cab can be trimmed back to size and the corners rounded. The last pic shows the re-united DC 120 body and cab on the right for comparison.   BK

 

[chrisf]

Brian. it has been far too long since your last dmu masterclass.  Welcome back!

 

Chris

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Everyone,

    Next stage is to create the domed cab roofs, this will add strength to the whole cab, before I open up the front windows. I've chopped up triangles of black plastic from SP roofs, when these have set in the correct position, I can then add two more triangles from the front, which in this case just happened to be spare bits of white DC roof, so its all from bits and bobs.  BK

 

[Brian Kirby]

Now I can start opening up the front windows, beginning with a ring of small drill holes, followed by larger drills, until the holes are large enough to link together with a sharp knife, then I can file down to a basic shape. Looking at the end shots, you can now see the classic Swindon DMU side profile, possibly inherited from Hawksworth coaches, a straight slab-sided top half and a gently curved lower section. Most DMUs were built to this profile, exceptions were Cravens, Derby Lightweights (both types) and Met-Cams, which copied the continuous curved side Mk1 coaches. When it comes to the size and shape of the front cab windows, there are three options to base them on, first; copy the DC cab, second; scale it from the Cheona DMU drawing book, or three; guesstimate them from photos. The DC cab is pretty good, but I fear the windows are slightly too square, as for the book, it is too riddled with inaccuracies to be trusted. For example, the book's drawing of the later Swindon 120 cab with 4-character headcode, has the single marker light on the wrong side ( look at the photos! ), so I rest my case. I'm sticking to good head-on piccies of the real thing for this exercise, rather than basing my interpretation, on somebody else's interpretation. Having said that, i'm still twiddling around with these windows, since I took these pics, I've made the central bulkheads a bit thinner. The last pic shows one of my bootleg 126 full cabs in the middle, DC 120 to the right, and a Class 126 Intermediate cab carved out of a SP end, to the left.            BK

 

[clecklewyke]

Lovely work, Brian, but I always thought that these Swindon DMUs looked very utilitarian. Just a few more curves and an extra pane of glass transformed them into the stylish Trans Pennine DMUs.  (Of course, I mean the 1960s version, not the current ones!)

 

Any chance of these appearing on the market? I'd love one of them for Clecklewyke!

 

Ian

Edited January 28, 2014 by clecklewyke

[Brian Kirby]

   Thanks again, yes these 126 DMUs were rather austere looking, but then they were built during Britain's 1950s utility years. I've long wanted to build some sets, let's see how these turn out first, before thinking of extra units.

Now as well as using the Southern Pride roofs and some ends, i'm also using the SP plastic chassis. The SP chassis comes with extended upright ends, which are designed for attaching to the SP Mk1 ends, since their kit's roofs are detachable. I've glued my roofs to the 126 sides and ends, with a different body attachment, so those uprights can be chopped off. On the DMBSs i'm fitting a body screw at the inside end, and a locating plug at the cab end, this can be seen on the third photo. The fourth pic shows the locating bracket that I've added to the inner end, complete with tapped screw holes, and the matching hole on the chassis. The next photo shows the corner resting pads at the cab end, and the bracket to receive the plug-in chassis retainer. The last image shows the SP solebars being added to the chassis, these were always a bit too deep for Mk1 coaches, but fortunately come into their own in this situation, since Swindon DMUs had deeper solebars than other types.

 

                                                                                              Cheers, Brian.

 

[Sc59401]

Lovely work as ever Brian.  I've seen this done in steel in 1:1 scale on the preserved Class 126 DMBS Sc51043 on a volunteering visit when it was at the Midland Railway Centre for Lottery-funded rebuilding.  I got the job of cutting out the holes for the headcode boxes.  Somewhere deep in the RMweb archives there is a set of measurements I took from the full cab end to help someone who was building a model a few years ago.

 

The three-car 'Ayrshire' unit has been up and running at Bo'ness since 2008 and we're currently concentrating on the bodywork rebuild of Edinburgh-Glasgow trailer buffet first Sc79443, the only vehicle from the 1956 Inter-City batch surviving in the UK although some of the five Sc7909x power cars which went to Liberia were known to be extant (just) in 2010.  The preservation society website www.class126.co.uk has been overhauled recently and might be of interest to you.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Sc59401

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks 59401,

      I must say your 126 website is very absorbing, I think i'm right in saying that any surviving 79xxx DMBS in Liberia are all the full-width cab version, so presumably the 79xxx Intermediate DMBS and DMS types are now extinct, albeit very similar to your surviving 5xxxx version. Even if two of the Liberian DMBS could be rescued, which would be remarkable, to run with your spare 79xxx buffet, it wouldn't be strictly correct, since all 126 units contained at least one Intermediate DMBS or DMS. To convert one of the full-width cabs to intermediate type would not be impossible, but very extensive, not to mention costly. We can but dream. Back in their day, at least four units could be formed with Intermediate DMBS cars at both ends. 

 

      I never experienced the 79xxx 126s in Scotland, but may have travelled on them in South Wales as a toddler, i can't be sure. I remember the Swindon fronts in green, but they could just as easily have been Cross-Country Class 120 sets. After most were withdrawn in the early 1970s, they were towed back to Swindon Works for stripping or re-sale, i remember seeing their faded livery in the Swindon scrap lines. However, as many will know, because of asbestos fears, they were towed to Snailwell in Cambridgeshire, so as to be burnt in the firing tunnel. Does this explain why the preserved buffet body has had to be rebuilt?

 

Back to the models, here's a chassis located on one body, followed by an example of the Hornby 110 bogies that i'm using. The way these bogies are designed make it rather a fiddle to get the trailing wheels in and out, you have to push one side through and then twist back up. I also have to convert five bogies to centre pivot, since Hornby designed them all to rotate in bogie wells, i remove the four upright spigots on these. One bogie remains as original, to clip around a Hornby Ringfield, although a swivel well will be required in the SP floor.

 

 

Here's the first body sitting on it's chassis and bogies, already i can see it's riding too high, so the last photos show an adjustment, although now it's a bit too low! More anon.                       BK

 

Edited January 30, 2014 by Brian Kirby

[MJI]

Very interesting article.

 

I need a 119 and a 120 but not sure on the best source for them

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Martin,

   Producing Class 119 and 120 Cross-Country Sets has always been tricky, neither of the two kit options are perfect, the DC Kits offerings have the wrong size side windows and door windows set too high, with slightly questionable window/door spacing, nice cabs though. The Craftsman conversion packs for the Lima 117 have the correct spacing, but whisper it if we dare, the side windows are a bit too large. They were designed to be stuck on to amended RTR bodies, which means they also come out overwidth, plus large chunks of the RTR sides have to be cut out. When I built my sets, i avoided this by constructing the etched parts as an all-metal coach body, only using the RTR roof and chassis, plus in the case of 119, the RTR cab as well. The DC Kits are the easier option, you could just alter the door windows, or you could scratchbuild your own sides for the DC, or to replace the Lima 117 sides and create a 119 unit. The difficulties with the kits is probably why we see so few finished and running.

 

Unfortunately, you can't even make them by chopping up Mk1 coaches, since the side profile differs and again, the window size would not be correct. I made my 126 sides from plain 40thou plasticard, with the lower section rolled under, a strip of 30 thou was added below the inside of the windows, to hold the tumblehome shape and stiffen the sides. I had a drawing for the window and door spacing, but the actual window size took some head scratching, if eagle-eyed RMwebbers study the first two thread photos, they will see that the 79xxx sides have ended up with window apertures that are too high, these will be altered, however I think my 5xxxx 126 windows are about right. I'll be using the Replica plug-in Mk1 windows, with 1mm cut off the bottom. More work!           

 

                                                                                                                Cheers, Brian.

[MJI]

Does this sound like I need to do a Colin?

 

Would also need plans - no idea where to look for them.

 

Would it be worth asking the etchers if they could do some decent sides?

[Brian Kirby]

The motor bogies for these will be the good old Hornby Ringfields, in this case they have been re-cycled from some old Hornby Hymeks in my 1970s scrap line. I think these power units have received a poor reputation in the past, but I found that was really down to bad pick-ups, they are actually very rugged and I find them more controllable than the Lima (and quieter!).These motor bogies have an adjustable wheelbase, so I need to move the brass tube bearing from the 10ft position to 8'6" for DMU. This can be tapped out with a suitable drift, care must be taken not to damage or distort it. Re-fitting in the new position is a gentle tap, again don't force it.

 

 

I'm trying out Bachmann's 36-034 small turned wheels on the 79xxx, including the motor bogie for uniformity, so the idler gear will have to be removed from the Hornby originals. I've used the 36-034s before on trailer bogies, but for power bogies I usually use the Jackson Romford 12mm disc, the 36-034 have an 11.9mm diameter, which is only a few thou greater than the Hornby gear, it's a bit tight. Failing this, I could always use the Hornby 13mm or go back to JR12s, no buying those expensive Ultrascale replacements here!

 

 

The Hornby gear is centred on the Bachmann and affixed, the pin-points are cut off and rounded smooth, I've added one brass washer to the axle, to keep the gear away from the block. The original Hornby wheels had a live axle, the Bachmann are insulated both sides, I haven't got time to turn up some metal bushes, it's also a tricky business that can easily knock the wheels out of true, so i'll add pick-ups both sides, like the bogie's modern cousin.        BK

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

I still think the DC Kit is the easier option, I've still got two DC Gloucester 119s to do, i'm fairly happy with them, but I will reduce the size of the window bottoms, as seen in the third piccy of this thread showing my late Class 120. The spacing error is minimal, only affecting an end door, the kits used to come with the same aforementioned Replica Mk1 windows, although Uncle Charlie may have replaced these with his own version on later kits. The other issue is how to power the DC Kits? They were designed to take a Tenshedo tram bogie (Yuck!), i will cut the floor for a Hornby, although with the large 119/120 guard's vans, you could bung in a Bachmann DMU mech.         BK

Edited February 1, 2014 by Brian Kirby

[Brian Kirby]

Forgot to say, you can see the DC Kit window spacing hiccup in that same third Class 120 pic (above, first post). It only seems to affect the centre trailer (top and third position down), look at the left end, there's a bit too much body beyond the door, or else the door is slightly too far to the right? It's no big deal.    BK

[MJI]

So may as well go DC then, will use a Black Beetle I expect.

 

Bashing stuff doesn't bother me with my 116 conversion

[Brian Kirby]

Here are the altered wheelsets fitted into the motor bogie, but without pick-ups so far.

 

 

Spot the difference. Like with the previous Cross-Country set project and their Lima bogies, i've made a start of modifying the spring detail on the bogies, the Hornby middle swing links are cut away and replaced with the triangular Swindon style suspension plank. I've also gotten rid of that nasty Hornby coupling bracket, and added two guard irons in it's place. (Original bogie below)    BK

 

[pwr]

I believe you can get a kit for a replacement armature that vastly improves the performance of these Hornby Ringfield motors.

 

Paul R

[Brian Kirby]

I assume that would be a 5-pole replacement armature, that would certainly enhance the slowing running. However, i've been happy with the performance of the originals, it's all down to free-running and brush tension, so I won't be changing them. It's also less of a problem with longer 3 or 4-car units.

 

Now time for some more open-heart DMU surgery, this time cutting the hole in the SP chassis for the motor bogie. In fact so much has to be cut out, it's easier to cut right across in two curved lines, rather than fretting out an oblong. Each end of the well has to be curved and smooth, copying the Hornby dimensions, the white blob in the middle of the chassis is where I have plugged a redundant SP body hole. The sections are re-united by adding the separate plastic solebars, which form the outside edge, to clear the filed down bogie side uprights.  When the solebars have set correctly, they need beefing and stiffening up, this is achieved by adding wider square sections above them, these also now act as bearing pads for the bogie uprights. Since the SP chassis is thicker than a Hornby, the front and rear retaining clips require extending up, this is done by cutting off the old clips and supergluing on new white L section.

 

 

Now with the Intermediate DMBS body on, the good news is the motor bogie is mostly hidden, the cab is clear, and the passenger saloon is untouched.       BK

 

Edited February 2, 2014 by Brian Kirby

[Sc59401]

Thanks 59401,

      I must say your 126 website is very absorbing, I think i'm right in saying that any surviving 79xxx DMBS in Liberia are all the full-width cab version, so presumably the 79xxx Intermediate DMBS and DMS types are now extinct, albeit very similar to your surviving 5xxxx version. Even if two of the Liberian DMBS could be rescued, which would be remarkable, to run with your spare 79xxx buffet, it wouldn't be strictly correct, since all 126 units contained at least one Intermediate DMBS or DMS. To convert one of the full-width cabs to intermediate type would not be impossible, but very extensive, not to mention costly. We can but dream. Back in their day, at least four units could be formed with Intermediate DMBS cars at both ends. 

 

      I never experienced the 79xxx 126s in Scotland, but may have travelled on them in South Wales as a toddler, i can't be sure. I remember the Swindon fronts in green, but they could just as easily have been Cross-Country Class 120 sets. After most were withdrawn in the early 1970s, they were towed back to Swindon Works for stripping or re-sale, i remember seeing their faded livery in the Swindon scrap lines. However, as many will know, because of asbestos fears, they were towed to Snailwell in Cambridgeshire, so as to be burnt in the firing tunnel. Does this explain why the preserved buffet body has had to be rebuilt?

 

 

My goodness, you've been busy since I last looked!  I must say that he website isn't my work but I've contributed bits and pieces to it.  To your questions:

 

Yes, all the Liberian cars are 'leading', i.e. full-width cab.  Their numbers were 79091, 79093, 79094, 79096 and 79097 and at least three survived in 2010, albeit in very poor condition and unidentifiable.  A peculiarity of these particular cars was that they had no multiple working jumpers on the cab ends in BR days.  Our society has discussed rescue plans and an 'intermediate' conversion in the past but the logistics would be mind-boggling and they really are pretty far gone.  The trailer buffet first at Bo'ness served as the static buffet car at Goathland on the NYMR for 20 years until it was asbestos stripped prior to its intended disposal, at which point we stepped in.  The steelwork was very rotten but the historic importance of the vehicle (first express DMU service in Great Britain, ancestor of Mark II carriage design) outweighed its condition and work is progressing well.  Looking forward to further updates about your project.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Sc59401

[Brian Kirby]

Hi again 59401,

      I presume the Liberians 126 DMBSs would also be contaminated with blue asbestos, so apart from the logistics and cost of rescuing them, I can't believe they would be allowed back into the U.K., remember all that fuss about the American ships at Hartlepool? Perhaps the best that can be expected, is to reclaim the bogies and mechanical parts, the doors, etc., and possibly the windows, and bung the lot in a container to be shipped home. Your society has already tackled body frame and panel renew, but new chassis construction would be a different matter. Maybe the surviving three are just dumped because of disposal problems. How on earth were the other two cut up safely in West Africa?

 

Most RMwebbers will be aware of the basic history of the Class 126 Inter-City sets, but for the benefit of anyone puzzled by these odd-ended units, here's a brief outline. They were divided into two distinct builds, all designed and constructed at Swindon, The 79xxx build date from 1956 onwards, the Western Region taking the first six units, the rest were intended for Scottish Region. The initial group and first few for ScR were given brake compartments behind each cab, which was later deemed excessive, so later units only had one brake. All units were 3-car, all but two units comprised a full-width cab DMBS (Driving Motor Brake Second), a Trailer First or Trailer Buffet, and a halfcab (Intermediate) DMBS or DMS at the other end. The intention was that two units could be coupled back-to-back to create a six-car unit, usually including one buffet. The WR must have had ideas of creating 9-car sets, since two of their six sets had Intermediate cabs at both ends, a floor plan does exist of this arrangement in a BR/WR booklet, but I can't recall seeing a photo of a 9-car set? The WR held on to their eighteen vehicles until around 1959, replacing them with more Cross-Country sets, although the WR did try again with their 1963 Inter-City sets.

 

The second build were the 1959 5xxxx type, mostly intended for Glasgow to Ayrshire services, although they could be freely mixed with the 79xxx, having the same White Circle coupling code.  5xxxx DMBS cars all had full-width cabs with the brake now at the inner end, most trailers were TFK (later TCK, then TSK), I believe only two new buffets were added, and all Intermediate half-cabs were DMS. 79xxx cars were concentrated on Edinburgh to Glasgow services, where the formation was changed to a semi-permanent 6-car unit of: DMBS/iDMBS/TBF/TFK/iDMBS/DMBS, which cleverly centralized the buffet car, next to the TFK. With a few exceptions, most 79xxx cars were withdrawn around 1971/2, the 5xxxx disappeared around 1982/3. I told you it was simple! 

 

                                                                                   Cheers, Brian.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Brian Kirby

[multiprinter]

The WR vehicles were all transferred to ScR during 1959. Some went initially to Ayr and the others to Leith Central.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for the date correction Multiprinter, i didn't realize it happened as early as that. BK

[Sc59401]

Hi again 59401,

      I presume the Liberians 126 DMBSs would also be contaminated with blue asbestos, so apart from the logistics and cost of rescuing them, I can't believe they would be allowed back into the U.K., remember all that fuss about the American ships at Hartlepool? Perhaps the best that can be expected, is to reclaim the bogies and mechanical parts, the doors, etc., and possibly the windows, and bung the lot in a container to be shipped home. Your society has already tackled body frame and panel renew, but new chassis construction would be a different matter. Maybe the surviving three are just dumped because of disposal problems. How on earth were the other two cut up safely in West Africa?

 

It's a nice thought Brian but unfortunately all non-ferrous fittings disappeared long ago to feed the local scrap metal industry.  The doors on these units were one-piece alloy castings and the window frames were aluminium too.  One car has even lost its bogies and is sitting on cast bogies from an iron ore wagon.  79097 was badly damaged in a crash on a level crossing in the early 1980s and according to reports it was disposed of by being pushed into a swamp.  The interior panels on the remaining cars have been ripped out to recover the alloy strips which held them in place, which of course exposes the insulation material ...

 

The derelict cars in Liberia have been likened to full-scale abandoned MTK projects, which reminds me I must finish my MTK six-car 79xxx unit some time!  Here’s a link to the earlier RMweb discussion about the Liberian adventure, with several recent photographs:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/5711-lamco-railroad-liberia/

 

Not wishing to hijack your thread but here are a few more snippets of history in case they're of interest:

 

The Edinburgh-Glasgow units settled into fixed six-car formations with the two trailers in the middle soon after introduction.  As all the 79xxx trailers were first class only, this allowed first class passengers access to the buffet without passing the riff-raff in second class.  From an operational point of view, it kept the jumperless leading cabs at the outer ends and if one of these cars failed it could be detached quickly to leave a functioning five-car set or replaced with another car.

 

As Multiprinter rightly points out, some of the Western Region cars went to Ayr before they joined the rest of the 79xxx fleet at Leith Central.  They were all intermediate DMBSs and were numbered 79083, 79084, 79085, 79086 and 79089.  A friend who lived in Ayr in 1959 remembers these cars as a great novelty with their W-prefixes and different layout from the Sc5xxxx cars which were just coming into service.  However they were not popular with drivers, who referred to them by their design code X2 (and possibly other names) as there were electrical differences between the two batches which could cause loss of control.  Indeed some rewiring was required to allow the 79xxx and 5xxxx vehicles to work together.

 

The use of lightweight buffing gear on these Inter-City cars was possibly a factor in keeping the distinct White Circle coupling code, as the later buckeye-fitted Trans-Pennine units could and did work in multiple with screw-coupled Blue Square cars.  The 79xxx cars were originally intended to have no buffers, US-style, but lightweight buffers were added to the design to allow shunting in depots and were not supposed to be used in traffic.

 

The Sc5xxxx Inter-City cars were always intended for Glasgow-Ayr-Girvan-Stranraer services, as you’ve already mentioned and despite what some books say, however Swindon did not build them as complete sets but sent batches of the same type of car which meant that odd cars did turn up on the Edinburgh-Glasgow service in the early days until deliveries of DMBS cars were complete.  There is an official photograph of DMS Sc51012 with temporary A stencils, E&G style.  After the fleet had settled down the two batches tended to stay apart but my father has cine film he shot for me of a blue/grey ‘X2’ DMBS leading a rake of blue ‘Ayrshire’ cars at Troon in 1969.  The same film contains a brief glimpse of a later DMBS in blue with small yellow panel, which we now know to be SC51035 as it was the only one so treated.  Yes, I’ve been keen on these units for a long time.

 

The first eleven 5xxxx trailers (59391 to 59400) were built as first class and the remaining ten (59402 to 59412, including preserved 59404) were composites, with first class spacing in the second class compartments and lots of legroom because the second class seats were less generous.  The number Sc59401 was not used until I took it for my RMweb user name  :-)

 

The last two White Circle cars, buffet firsts 59098 and 59099, were delivered in 1961 in dark green and had ridged dome ventilators, unlike the rest which were lighter green with shell ventilators.  They moved to Leith when buffet services ended on the Glasgow-Stranraer line and one of them was the very first DMU vehicle to be painted blue, however this was changed to blue/grey shortly afterwards.  These two buffet cars ended up as camping coaches at the NYMR and were scrapped in 1994, however our society recovered some interior fittings for future use in preserved 79443.

 

Although most 79xxx cars were withdrawn after the Edinburgh-Glasgow service went over to push-pull Class 27s and Mark IIs, four cars were absorbed into the Class 126 fleet at Ayr.  These were 79088, 79168 (replacing 1973 accident loss 51011), 79470 and 79479.  Initially they had the grey panels painted out to match Ayr’s all-blue cars but became blue/grey again with the ‘real’ 126s.  I travelled on 79470 a few times and remember its interior being different from all the others with dark veneer finishes instead of Formica.

 

And finally, sorry if this information is too late but the lavatory windows were 26” wide on 79xxx cars and 23” wide on the later cars.  This is giving us a headache replacing a broken window on 79443!  Looking forward to further updates.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks very much for that John (Sc59401), you hijack away whenever you like.

So it seems the Liberian cars are a right off, how dramatic to end up in a swamp, just like the film Psycho! Didn't some other Scottish DMUs end up buried in a landfill near Glasgow, about thirty years ago? Your added info is extremely helpful, and plugs a few more gaps in their history. Reference books state that some of the WR 79xxx cars were lent to ScR when new, so as to assist driver training, before their cars were ready, so the WR cars were certainly well travelled. You've caught me out with the different loo window sizes, so as i'm building a 5xxxx and a 79xxx, i'm just off to check which one is wrong!

 

Cheers, Brian.