92214 Cock of the North to stay at the GCR (Now Central Star) - Soon to be 92220 Evening Star

[Londontram]

I'm pretty sure BR owned 92214 for longer than a week!

I guess your right....but not much longer   

[edcayton]

I dont understand the argument that time has passed longer than the time it ran.

 

There are lots of other machines that only ran a short time such as grand prix cars, land speed machines and military machines.

 

There are certainly ex-F1 cars that race in "non-original" liveries.

 

Ed

[southern42]

Call me "Old Mr Picky" if you like, but 92241 was scrapped (see caption below first pic) - the Nine with the Line(s) is 92214!

 

Thanks for being 'picky,' Colin - another excuse to post a pic of a nice working 9F.  

So, here's the real 92214, Southall 1961 - "Cock of the West"

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=33519

[coachmann]

I wonder if some folk think a loco is a 12inch to the foot Finney kit that the owner had built for them. After the fund-raising and negotiation, the real hard work takes place in the workshop, often over many years in warm and cold weather stripping down, fabricating new parts, awaiting more funds, the slow job of reassembly, steam testing and so-forth. This is often undertaken by keen volunteers working for far less than the minimum wage or now't at all because they have a keen interest in restoring a machine. 

 

Once completed and tested, it then falls to the whims of the owner, the accountant, the 'click' and whoever decides how it should be painted. It is at this stage that all purist and historical significance goes out the window if the full-size-trainset guys have their way. Displaying an amazingly cavalier attitude, they will say Joe Public wont know the difference and so-forth.  

 

But we are where we are and I don't give a crap either way anymore. Someone did the hard graft for the rest of us to enjoy on the cheap, so I ignore the liveries and just see the machine....It's steam and it smells right and that'll do for me. 

[stewartingram]

To me, "preservation" (horrible word, could mean many things, but we are stuck with it) is yet another chapter in the hopefully continuing life of a locomotive. So it gets painted orange, has wallpaper glued to it, a face stuck on the front, naked girls dancing along the footplate - so what? In a few more years time we will look back at the photographs, and say "I remember that". It is all part of the history of the loco. By then some nerd will have painted it in a "correct" livery and we may well be wishing for more colourful variants that it carried (especially the naked dancing ladies....maybe?). We cannot turn the clock back, or even make it stand still. Enjoy the moment.

Likewise, if I go to a preserved railway, I'm not too bothered about the "front 3/4 portrait" shot. How many 100's of those have you seen published in magazines or on the web? Far better to take what you see - incorporate the scene, and this will hurt a lot of folk I know, include the crowds! It is all part of the atmosphere of the time. Yes it needs a little bit of composure (any photo does); if you want the "time capsule" shots, join a photo charter.

 

Stewart

[37255]

naked girls dancing along the footplate

 

As I said above, I've no problem with the inauthenticity, it's whether it's pleasing to the eye!

[coachmann]

stewartingram, on 30 Jan 2014 - 13:22, said:

naked girls dancing along the footplate

Dus tha mean.......

 

 

Far better to take what you see - incorporate the scene, and this will hurt a lot of folk I know, include the crowds! It is all part of the atmosphere of the time. 

No mistaking the period of flared trousers.... 22nd October 1977.....

[PenrithBeacon]

...

 

But we are where we are and I don't give a crap either way anymore ...

I do, If I'm going to pay good money to see these locos then I expect authenticity. It costs me between £300 and £350 for a weekend away and I want value for money. And for me value comes from appropriate curating, not an 8F in crimson lake, a 9F in BR lined black or a Manor in BR blue. Last March I went to the WSR to see the Didcot railmotor and some w****r put a 'Cornish Riviera' headboard on the damned thing. It completely ruined the film and it'll be a long time before I spend any part of my pension in West Somerset, coming, as it did, on a fair number of disastrous WSR galas .

 

I think it can be fairly said that the heritage railway movement has grown up. Unfortunately in doing so it has attracted a lot of 'suits' whose attitudes are the complete antithesis to those volunteers who built up the railways to where they are now. The 'suits' see the railways as a career opportunity - completely the opposite to those volunteers and the railways are suffering as a result. 

 

Regards

[caradoc]

I do, If I'm going to pay good money to see these locos then I expect authenticity. It costs me between £300 and £350 for a weekend away and I want value for money. And for me value comes from appropriate curating, not an 8F in crimson lake, a 9F in BR lined black or a Manor in BR blue. Last March I went to the WSR to see the Didcot railmotor and some w****r put a 'Cornish Riviera' headboard on the damned thing. It completely ruined the film and it'll be a long time before I spend any part of my pension in West Somerset, coming, as it did, on a fair number of disastrous WSR galas .

 

I think it can be fairly said that the heritage railway movement has grown up. Unfortunately in doing so it has attracted a lot of 'suits' whose attitudes are the complete antithesis to those volunteers who built up the railways to where they are now. The 'suits' see the railways as a career opportunity - completely the opposite to those volunteers and the railways are suffering as a result. 

 

Regards

 

David, if you want to see any loco in what you believe is an authentic livery, feel free to make the current owner an offer they can't refuse and then you can paint it whatever colour you like. I (like I think most others) am just glad that so many locos are preserved and maintained in a fit condition to operate for my enjoyment.

[edcayton]

...and there are charters where you can choose headboards (or not) and other things.

 

Ed

[coachmann]

I do, If I'm going to pay good money to see these locos then I expect authenticity. It costs me between £300 and £350 for a weekend away and I want value for money. And for me value comes from appropriate curating, not an 8F in crimson lake, a 9F in BR lined black or a Manor in BR blue. Last March I went to the WSR to see the Didcot railmotor and some w****r put a 'Cornish Riviera' headboard on the damned thing. It completely ruined the film and it'll be a long time before I spend any part of my pension in West Somerset, coming, as it did, on a fair number of disastrous WSR galas .

 

I think it can be fairly said that the heritage railway movement has grown up. Unfortunately in doing so it has attracted a lot of 'suits' whose attitudes are the complete antithesis to those volunteers who built up the railways to where they are now. The 'suits' see the railways as a career opportunity - completely the opposite to those volunteers and the railways are suffering as a result. 

 

Regards

This is why I said I don't give a crap any more Penrith. At one time I naively expected preservationists would paint things 'correctly' if armed with the correct information. But the passing years have shown that far from recreating anything from the past, it is all pure Mickey Mouse, but as a public attraction, there's a lot going for it.

 

When I visit heritage lines it makes me wonder about peoples attitudes when they turn up with a camera, complain about liveries and people getting in their way, and yet contribute diddly-squat. 

[Bulleidnutter]

This all reminds me of the cr*p that was dished out when the SVR painted Truro in black.

 

I am just happy to see one my favourite type of loco running. My only picky point would be the lining shouldn't continue under the cab when its coming off the running plate.

 

This argument is raging over on national preservation. If you had a sodding great 9f and could afford to run/ maintain the thing then you can paint it pink or whatever colour you want.

[bluebottle]

David, if you want to see any loco in what you believe is an authentic livery, feel free to make the current owner an offer they can't refuse and then you can paint it whatever colour you like .....

 

Hm, there's an idea. Don't know about David, but I wouldn't be sure that my painting skills would be adequate, though. Wonder if I could stretch my pension far enough to commission the Coach to do the job?

[coachmann]

Hm, there's an idea. Don't know about David, but I wouldn't be sure that my painting skills would be adequate, though. Wonder if I could stretch my pension far enough to commission the Coach to do the job?

Heck no, especially if your pensions are as poor as mine Blue.   

[Sir Hadyn]

Remember the NRM think it is all right to paint an engine in a livery which it never carried in the current preserved condition, and what livery they painted "Mr Money Pit" was painted in which it never carried in the same condition as she was then in. 

 

4472 has carried apple green with deflectors and double chimney since 1999 until 2006, that's now part of its history. Since when did history of the loco finish in 1963. Strictly speaking, the corridor tender is inauthentic too...

[S.A.C Martin]

4472 has carried apple green with deflectors and double chimney since 1999 until 2006, that's now part of its history. Since when did history of the loco finish in 1963. Strictly speaking, the corridor tender is inauthentic too...

 

How long is a piece of string with 4472? Virtually nothing of the locomotive's livery or form is consistent with a period in time it was working in.

 

If you want an A3 with double chimney and smoke deflectors, you need a streamlined non-corridor tender and BR dark green livery as 60103. Even its depiction in the early 90s wasn't correct because Scotsman's smokebox door variant was a Peppercorn A1 type with a split handrail by the time it was withdrawn from service, with the numberplate on the upper smokebox strap.

 

If you want an apple green A3 pacific, well you need the streamlined non corridor tender again and a single chimney to be fitted minus the smoke deflectors, oh, and it won't be 4472 if you intend to keep the A3 boiler and superheater headers, because Scotsman was numbered 103 and e103 whilst apple green and in A3 form in the late forties in latterly LNER and British Railways branding up to being painted express passenger blue. 

 

If however you want 4472 good and proper, as per her probably best known, 1928 form, you need to change the boiler for a replica of an original 180lb type, remove the superheater headers and then the corridor tender she currently has becomes authentic too.

 

Oh, and that's before we throw in whether she was left or right hand drive at the time...

 

If however, as Anthony is intimating I suspect, you want to see 4472 as preserved by Alan Pegler, which to be frank remains (apart from the double tender period) the best possible compromise of livery and form.

 

Preservation is about compromise - Bittern running in garter blue with valances and a double chimney isn't 100% accurate but it serves and gives the performance required of the locomotive.

 

Although personally speaking, I do think an express passenger blue Manor or Crimson Lake 8F is pushing it, but hey, I've not paid a penny to either of them and therefore my view on their livery is moot.

 

I'll say this - I think 92214 looks splendid in the mixed traffic black and I do wonder why BR never named them or painted them thusly when they ended up on all sorts of duties. Dare I say I think the mixed traffic black looks better than 92220's one off livery?

[The Stationmaster]

While I have visited preserved railways - and like & enjoy some of them very much - I think it is a mistake to think that they recreate the steam age railway we once had; they don't, they are tourist attractions wihch use tourist money to fund a railway operating old engines and rolling stock some of which might it might not be in authentic condition but is at least in working order and if nothing has can sometimes have an authentic aroma to it.  

 

Some try to recreate past liveries and preserve skills and history in doing so and some don't - but at the end of the day the main thing which keeps them in business (apart from volunteer labour) is visits by 'mum & dad & and the family' spending money on tickets, catering, and in the gift shops.  And I bet teh vast majority of them probably wouldn't even know that 92214 is a 9F but will be impressed by its name and nice looking lining.  That, I'm afraid, is the reality. 

[bluebottle]

..... Dare I say I think the mixed traffic black looks better than 92220's one off livery?

 

Whatever else I may bleat, That's one thing I definitely agree with (though plain black and unencumbered smoke deflectors would be more agreeable still !).

 

Baaah!

 

(Edit:punctuation)

[37255]

 

Some try to recreate past liveries and preserve skills and history in doing so and some don't - but at the end of the day the main thing which keeps them in business (apart from volunteer labour) is visits by 'mum & dad & and the family' spending money on tickets, catering, and in the gift shops.  And I bet teh vast majority of them probably wouldn't even know that 92214 is a 9F but will be impressed by its name and nice looking lining.  That, I'm afraid, is the reality. 

 

Completely agree with the "families pay for pres lines" element, but I'm not convinced the vast majority *notice* the name and lining, let alone appreciate it!

[phil-b259]

I do, If I'm going to pay good money to see these locos then I expect authenticity. It costs me between £300 and £350 for a weekend away and I want value for money. And for me value comes from appropriate curating, not an 8F in crimson lake, a 9F in BR lined black or a Manor in BR blue. Last March I went to the WSR to see the Didcot railmotor and some w****r put a 'Cornish Riviera' headboard on the damned thing. It completely ruined the film and it'll be a long time before I spend any part of my pension in West Somerset, coming, as it did, on a fair number of disastrous WSR galas .

 

I think it can be fairly said that the heritage railway movement has grown up. Unfortunately in doing so it has attracted a lot of 'suits' whose attitudes are the complete antithesis to those volunteers who built up the railways to where they are now. The 'suits' see the railways as a career opportunity - completely the opposite to those volunteers and the railways are suffering as a result. 

 

Regards

 

Not wishing to be rude but.....

 

Running a Heritage railway is an expensive business and, put simply Enthusiasts simply do not generate enough money to keep the thing going. As a person you have every right to be annoyed about "incorrect" liveries but if Heritage railways followed your advice then most would become bankrupt and be forced to shut down very quickly. If you want to keep steam locos in steam (bearing in mind eventually big ticket things like boilers will need replacing), keep LNER teak stock in service, never mind restore something else  etc. you need to follow the money, which is overwhelmingly generated by the ordinary 'joe public' who don't care about colour schemes, incorrect headboards, but do like 'pretty lined out engines (preferably with names), pulling clean and tidy carriages calling at stations with decent toilets, somewhere to buy some food and maybe a little memento of their visit. Now of course all that doesn't mean Heritage railways should ignore the enthusiast element of the market but we need to be sensible. Heritage railways are, at the end of the day a business not a private plaything and must earn their keep to survive in the modern world.

 

Also I would point out many of those 'suits' as you put it are needed thanks to the fact the whole legislative and indeed commercial environment Heritage railways in which we operate in today. There are plenty of examples of practices being carried out in the mid 80s that would see a railway being shut immediately if they were still doing them now. Heritage railways these days are leicened to opperate by the ORR who take a very dim view of organisations not complying with modern standards as laid out in the ROGS legislation. In terms of documentation anything a Heritage Railway produces has to be of the same quality as a regular TOC in many areas (obviously the details will be different). Examples such as having up to date, regularly reviewed Safety Management Structure, ensuring good cooperate governance, making sure volunteer staff are trained assessed and competent to carry out the roles, that those doing the training are themselves competent and the material they are using is correct, ensuring procedures are in place to ensure staff be the volunteer or paid are fit and they do not exceed the working time directive etc. There is also the issue that the larger an organisation gets the more difficult it is for volunteers to keep on top of everything, you can of course bring in more volunteers but that brings problems of coordination so you need a strong board to keep things in check. Then again maybe its more effective to pay a single person instead or it could be that none of the volunteers have the right skill set.

 

As for the 9F, I actually think it looks quite good in mixed traffic livery and certainly the chosen name suits the loco in my view - just as David Shepard's choice of "Black Price" did (though in that case maybe unlined black is a bit of a better fit with the name)

[37255]

Running a Heritage railway is an expensive business and, put simply Enthusiasts simply do not generate enough money to keep the thing going. 

 

But the parents and 2.4 kids don't come and volunteer. Remember, it's a balancing act...

[bluebottle]

On platform 4 at Keighley, a while back:

 

Dad: "Excuse me, What's that engine called?" (No. 47279, in authentic unlined black)

KWVR volunteer, in authentic 1950s BR uniform: "Well, that's a 'Jinty' "

Dad thanked him and went back to his family:

"He says its name is 'Jinty' "

 

And the wife and kids nodded and smiled happily, said hello to Jinty, and boarded the train ...

 

Edit: Sloppy typing.

[Londontram]

But the parents and 2.4 kids don't come and volunteer. Remember, it's a balancing act...

But I did, my mum dad often took me to Didcot as a child and I was bitten by the bug and when old enough I joined as a working volunteer at the Midland railway centre (Many a happy hour spent inside a boiler with a needle gun) I have since also been a contributing member of the K&WVR, the Great central, the North Norfolk railway and the East Anglian Transport museum. My dad now sadly gone although not a member would give up his weekends to give me lifts before I could drive even taking me from Nottingham to Barry so I could see the scrap yard before it was gone. I'll health now stops me from taking an active roll though I still like to follow events and give passive support where I can sometime even recovering and restoring artifacts at home the last being a 4ft tall ornate cast iron tram junction box Now on the street at the East Anglian Transport museum. Who knows how many of those mum, dads and 2.4 children will go on to become volunteers and even if they dont go on to volunteer they have payed for there visit! which is more than some of these die hard "enthusiast" who stand on the track side somewhere to take a photo of a rail tour train while they boast about never going to a heratige lines because they paint their engines the wrong colour.

 

Thanks mum and dad.  

[Londontram]

Completely agree with the "families pay for pres lines" element, but I'm not convinced the vast majority *notice* the name and lining, let alone appreciate it!

Ask any mum dad or kid on there visit if they have come to see the Pecket with the incorrect paint job and paid hard cash to do so and I bet 99.9% will say "No Thomas"

But then joe public never notice the name!

[PenrithBeacon]

How long is a piece of string with 4472? ...

Actually the piece of string is quite short. FS was converted to a Group Standard A3 over quite a long time with a number of iterations concerning valve events (1930s), boiler update (1940s) but the final change to full Group Standard wasn't until it was converted to left hand drive in 1954 and then came the change to blinkers etc in late 1961 and withdrawal in 1963. Following this, it's clear that the only appropriate livery is BR green, no matter what the smokebox looks like.

 

My view is that there is really great importance to properly curating historical artefacts. The British Museum - amongst many others - does this and I look forward to the day when the Railway Heritage Movement understands that the only appropriate way to behave is to emulate this approach. FS is an artefact of international importance and the way that its millionaire owners and, currently, the NRM, have behaved towards it is a disgrace.

 

People should stop thinking of their railway as a full size toy!

 

Regards