92214 Cock of the North to stay at the GCR (Now Central Star) - Soon to be 92220 Evening Star

[Michael Delamar]

the thing with the private owner is you may not like it but you cant do anything about it.

 

when its the groups rattling the tin it seems a bit wrong when people have donated to what they believe would be a recreation of what they seen in the steam era, advertising in magazines through the 70s and 80s, help us save this locomotive and recreate the old days, to then at the last hour give a one finger salute to those who have donated to then upset them by painting the loco purposely wrong.

[andyram]

Can't say I agree that's spot on at all. There's a bit of a private owner against public owner theme emerging and a double standard too.

 

So the 8F in crimson is fine (despite the locomotive never actually wearing that livery) because other locomotive classes from the same railway wore the livery, yet 4472 which did actually wear the apple green livery in question is somehow more wrong than the 8F and also more about educational value?

 

So we will happily ignore that the NRM inherited a basket case without a single chimney or blast pie, and pillory and demand them to put 4472 into a more accurate livery or form, but we won't apply that same logic to the 8F because it's privately owned?!

 

That's a ridiculous double standard to set. We're effectively saying that any livery on any locomotive in private ownership is fine so long as another locomotive from the same company wore that livery.

 

By that logic you should paint the 8F in corporate blue with full yellow ends! The 47 was in BR ownership, as was the 8F, so why not right? It's privately owned too so who cares for authenticity!

 

I am glad it's a minority of private locomotive owners who choose to act and think this way - if they all did the historical value and reputation of steam locomotives across the board would go down significantly.

 

Thank goodness for the PRLT, the Wandering 1500 group, Didcot, and numerous other private locomotive groups that recognise the historical importance of their charges and see ways to take advantage of that rather than shunning historical accuracy in favour of something else.

I think you should have read the previous comments more carefully. NRM have a duty to educate and the A3 in current guise does not do that. Remember this is an establishment that won't restore Lode Star because it will harm authenticity. A heritage line is slightly different. It is a working railway and needs passengers to survive. Sadly all so called enthusiasts don't contribute enough. Many will come to a line, buy a ticket, have something to eat and drink and spend in gift shop. But there are many freeloaders who will bring flask and sandwiches and sit on lineside all day and leave after being entertained without contributing a dime to the railway. As a volunteer I have seen many examples of this. Families spend the big money and if false names, dodgy liveries and kids events prove to bring in the lots of families then it is the way of the world. Without attracting families there will be no next generation of enthusiasts or volunteers and our heritage lines would go bust.

[Andy W]

Well 92214 is due to appear at the GC's next gala in May in unlined, weathered, black. I assume everyone who has been complaining about the lined black livery will show their support by actually turning up and patronising the gala?

[andyram]

Well 92214 is due to appear at the GC's next gala in May in unlined, weathered, black. I assume everyone who has been complaining about the lined black livery will show their support by actually turning up and patronising the gala?

Probably not because it will probably be pulling the wrong colour coaches or the wrong type of trucks and that would be inauthentic ;-)

[60800]

So the 8F in crimson is fine (despite the locomotive never actually wearing that livery) because other locomotive classes from the same railway wore the livery, yet 4472 which did actually wear the apple green livery in question is somehow more wrong than the 8F and also more about educational value?

 

 

By that logic you should paint the 8F in corporate blue with full yellow ends! The 47 was in BR ownership, as was the 8F, so why not right? It's privately owned too so who cares for authenticity!

Regarding the first comment - yes, effectively. The 8F in crimson is fine as is Galatea - it's an LMS derived livery from the right region and ERA, both are passenger hauling locos in service at present and the liveries are popular with the general public - the Duchesses wore this livery during the period for which the locomotive's mechanical makeup represents. The matter with 4472 is that in its current configuration, being closest to end of BR era operation, apple green is wrong by 15 years - three whole eras.

 

Regarding the second comment - no..... you've lost the plot somewhat here. Is a late BR condition / liveried 8F in the same era as a corporate 47? No. Did any contemopary LMS locos of similar size / operation ever wear corporate blue or have yellow panels? No. In this right, you could happily put an 8F in BR maroon or BR green as they are representative of the era and similarly operated / configured locos from a certain area / company in that operational era.

[Corbs]

I really don't understand why people get so stressed about these things. The preservation movement has been around for over 50 years. Most locos have been wearing authentic liveries for all of that time, and if the 'rule' is to only represent liveries the exact loco wore in its (sometimes short) life, then they are going to be wearing those limited liveries forever.

Personally, I have seen so many GWR green halls and plain black standards I would willingly go and see locos in an unprototypical livery as it's a nice change. The current resurgence of BR Express Blue is brilliant to me, and I would rather see a manor in blue than in green, which I could see any time. It's not like they don't exist any more, or that the loco concerned will never be GWR green again.

[298]

Either you like it, or you don't. But when a whole railway decides to adopt a corporate policy of painting locos in gaudy, inauthentic liveries and adding names to coaches, you have to acknowledge the positive effect on staff morale and interest from the general public who only want to ride on a steam train is offset against enthusiasts who have less of an interest in visiting you.

[brianthesnail96]

Makes a pleasant change from an Austerity dressed up in fake BR livery instead of proudly displaying it's industrial heritage I suppose...

 

Ignoring all the arguments- I have to say that in my opinion it rather suits it.

[PhilH]

 But when a whole railway decides to adopt a corporate policy of painting locos in gaudy, inauthentic liveries and adding names to coaches, you have to acknowledge the positive effect on staff morale and interest from the general public who only want to ride on a steam train is offset against enthusiasts who have less of an interest in visiting you.

 

When you set that against the demographic of who foots the bill on heritage railways I would imagine that's a trade off most of them  would be willing to undertake.   

[coachmann]

Yes, a lot of camera-toting guys turn up just to photograph the trains. I knew some of these guys and they were paid up members who had supported particular railways from the outset and had responded to the calls for extra money and to buy shares so that lines could be extended. They also organised photographic events that brought money in. I am just adding a dimension some of you may have overlooked, as to assume that everyone is a freeloader except oneself is naive.

[Bon Accord]

Can't say I agree that's spot on at all. There's a bit of a private owner against public owner theme emerging and a double standard too.

 

So the 8F in crimson is fine (despite the locomotive never actually wearing that livery) because other locomotive classes from the same railway wore the livery, yet 4472 which did actually wear the apple green livery in question is somehow more wrong than the 8F and also more about educational value?

 

So we will happily ignore that the NRM inherited a basket case without a single chimney or blast pie, and pillory and demand them to put 4472 into a more accurate livery or form, but we won't apply that same logic to the 8F because it's privately owned?!

 

That's a ridiculous double standard to set. We're effectively saying that any livery on any locomotive in private ownership is fine so long as another locomotive from the same company wore that livery.

 

By that logic you should paint the 8F in corporate blue with full yellow ends! The 47 was in BR ownership, as was the 8F, so why not right? It's privately owned too so who cares for authenticity!

 

I am glad it's a minority of private locomotive owners who choose to act and think this way - if they all did the historical value and reputation of steam locomotives across the board would go down significantly.

 

Thank goodness for the PRLT, the Wandering 1500 group, Didcot, and numerous other private locomotive groups that recognise the historical importance of their charges and see ways to take advantage of that rather than shunning historical accuracy in favour of something else.

 

I think you've managed to get entirely the wrong end of the stick.

If you read my post I've said 4472 should only be in apple green when in LNER A3 condition - i.e. single chimney. If it has a double chimney it should be BR green only. Do you disagree with that? The NRM are and will always be different from private owners because they're a national museum, therefore they actually have a responsibility over their exhibits that private owners do not and never will have.

The 8F/47 comparison is simply ridiculous and you know it.

[andyman7]

For the record! Some of these so called "suits" are helping certain railways develop as a business and this allows them to have a chance of surviving for future generations to enjoy. As a GCR volunteer I cannot say I a complete fan of inauthentic liveries. However the chairman recently went on record, in Steam Railway magazine, stating that takings for a normal running weekend were always significantly "up" when people know the red 8F is running. It appeals to families more than the procession of black locomotives in the fleet.

 Perhaps some of these family members will become the next generation of volunteers!!!

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I just wanted to endorse this point. My son, who is five, loved seeing the 8F in Crimson Lake at the GCR. He has a real passion for transport and trains but still likes Thomas and of course mixes and matches his interests as he sees fit. Inspiring people like him is essential to ensuring that the next and future generations take an active interest in maintaining our engineering heritage.

Therefore to paint a big black line between the public and volunteers misses the point that some of the former will become the latter (and indeed will need to when we're all gone!)

[S.A.C Martin]

I totally get the private owner has the right to do as he wishes but you cannot seriously be suggesting that 4472 in apple green is worse than the 8F in crimson. That's a ridiculous double standard and particularly when you consider the NRM don't have the luxury of other classmates around to get parts like single chimneys or blast pipes from.

 

I think the idea that everyone going to a railway just wants to see brightly coloured steam engines running is a bit over bearing and over egging the "them versus us" mentality that seems prevalent when historical guise and accuracy is discussed.

 

I'm all for compromise but I'm also for consistency of approach - and if you're not going to be critical of a Stanier 8F in a livery it never wore in service then you shouldn't apply that logic to 4472 either - particularly given it has been in near continuous service since it was built bar the last decade of this particular overhaul.

[S.A.C Martin]

I think you've managed to get entirely the wrong end of the stick.

If you read my post I've said 4472 should only be in apple green when in LNER A3 condition - i.e. single chimney. If it has a double chimney it should be BR green only. Do you disagree with that? The NRM are and will always be different from private owners because they're a national museum, therefore they actually have a responsibility over their exhibits that private owners do not and never will have.

The 8F/47 comparison is simply ridiculous and you know it.

Well hang on a moment - 4472 in private owner hands wore apple green in her double chimney condition (marchington era) and a classmate, humorist no less did do in revenue earning service! So is 4472 really that inaccurate compared to the crimson 8F?

 

All I am asking for is consistency of approach. If you accept the crimson 8F then you have to accept the apple green 4472. It's a nonsense to suggest otherwise.

 

The 47/8F comparison is valid because they were both locomotives in service for the same railway - the same logic applied to the LMS crimson 8F earlier in the thread.

 

Be consistent in your (I say this generally) approach and I have no issues but it seems such a ridiculous stretch to suggest a crimson 8F is more accurate and therefore more acceptable than an apple green 4472.

[Bon Accord]

Well hang on a moment - 4472 in private owner hands wore apple green in her double chimney condition (marchington era) and a classmate, humorist no less did do in revenue earning service! So is 4472 really that inaccurate compared to the crimson 8F?

 

All I am asking for is consistency of approach. If you accept the crimson 8F then you have to accept the apple green 4472. It's a nonsense to suggest otherwise.

 

The 47/8F comparison is valid because they were both locomotives in service for the same railway - the same logic applied to the LMS crimson 8F earlier in the thread.

 

Be consistent in your (I say this generally) approach and I have no issues but it seems such a ridiculous stretch to suggest a crimson 8F is more accurate and therefore more acceptable than an apple green 4472.

 

The difference is that 4472 is not in private hands, it is now in public hands, owned by a body which has a duty to educate and inform and therefore my point still stands. The point you miss about Humorist is that she did not wear German style deflectors, however there is absolutely no question of 4472 not running with them when/if she returns to service. That therefore makes her totally wrong and you can't say they have little visual impact. What Marchington and Kennington did is their own business as she was a privately owned locomotive and I think most were simply happy to see her overhauled and running again, even if in a 'bastardised' condition.

I've never said that a Crimson 8F is 'accurate', however it is not a massive stretch to imagine one in that colour - after all contemporary LMS locos were painted that colour and crimson represents that company in all its glory.

We can play silly games all day long, but the comparison between an 8F and a grease driven engine is still a ridiculous one. What next, an 8F in Virgin colours because 48151 has been on the main line in the privatised era?

[Tom J]

I too am a GCR volunteer of long standing. I have to say I think the line about takings rising when the engine isn't painted black sounds awfully dubious. Very often the website doesn't actually state what is running. Do people come to the booking office and ask what colour the engine is today before they decide whether to travel? Come on! What they DO ask on that basis is, 'is it a steam engine?'. The naming thing I have more sympathy for. The PDSR amongst others have learned that tourists like named engines, but if that isn't your market, again, there is no need to.

 

I happen to think 46521 looked good in lined green. I think the Red 8F is jarring; not as much as the lined 9F, but there are plenty of worse, prototypical liveries for engines! Some people really don't like 'Lamiel' in Bullied green.

 

I think the line about 'Pay us £500k and we'll name an engine what you like' is nearer the mark from Bill Ford - and I find it hard to disagree with, so long as what is bought is worth the money. Remember, Swithland and the double track was one man's dream, which he paid for much of! It's like very specific bequests. You accept, with the conditions, or you decline - whatever suits your organisation and its attempts to fulfil its aims.

 

On a much smaller scale it reminds me of what happened recently with our 5305LA headboard at the diesel gala. Bearing in mind the benefit to our 'reach' on social networking for the negligible cost (it was donated!) of the (very sparing and sensitive) deployment of it, we offered the disgruntled Pip Dunn the chance to buy it for £500. That buys a lot of leaflets to use instead, or helps mend an engine. He didn't want to see the back of the headboard badly enough to pay what it was worth to us to remove it, so he didn't get what he wanted!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5305LA-headboard-Hand-crafted-carried-D123-/181366753189

 

Pay the '8F' owners the right money and you can have it black. Donate the right money to the railway and you could even see 6990 wearing its own identity when it returns from overhaul! I won't pretend I am going to get used to that any more than Odney Manor being renamed.

 

I am more likely to accept such compromises if it buys a tangible benefit, and in respect of 'coloured engines earn more', I don't see one, personally. As has been rightly pointed out, if you want the GCR to be more authentic, then you need to come more often and contribute more, because families and diners do put far more in the coffers than enthusiasts, and we wouldn't survive on the latter alone.

 

What I'd be sad to see is for our railway to become a theme park. That would be against our core values and cause people to go off in search of opportunities for 'recreating the experience' elsewhere, which, ironically, is how the railway came to be preserved in the first place!

[caradoc]

Probably not because it will probably be pulling the wrong colour coaches or the wrong type of trucks and that would be inauthentic ;-)

 

And the people on the platforms and trains won't be wearing authentic 1960s clothing !

[S.A.C Martin]

I think the reality is that the NRM like any owner have to make most of their assets and it could be reasonably argued (if you are going to play the private owner card and history lesson at the same time) that 4472 in her current condition is actually LESS of a bastardised condition than when she was previously privately owned - why? A3 type boiler which the NRM had restored and fitted.

 

I think you're missing the thrust of my argument entirely RE the 47 - of course it's a ridiculous comparison but then it runs along the same logic as the 8F in crimson livery. All I ask for is a consistent approach. You can't keep slaing the NRM for painting the engine LNER green without at least acknowledging it's a damn sight more accurate and more worthy of wearing that livery than the 8F in crimson.

 

What I'm getting from this discussion is that the argument against the NRM is entirely based around the smoke deflectors and double chimney - two fairly minor things in comparison to the LH/RH drive problem and tender type in my view.

 

Yet somehow 4472 is more wrong, as an express engine wearing an express livery it itself almost singlehandedly made famous, than a freight engine, only ever painted black, now in express livery.

 

The public body/private owner argument doesn't take into account the full circumstances of 4472s overhaul or history and seems awfully biased in favour of the private owners and lambasting the NRM for the hell of it.

[Welly]

Inauthetic or not, lined mixed traffic black suits the 9F well, it could have been applied to Bath Green Park shed 9Fs had they been fitted with steam heating pipes for the through workings in winter.

 

[60800]

The 47/8F comparison is valid because they were both locomotives in service for the same railway - the same logic applied to the LMS crimson 8F earlier in the thread.

 

I'll put it in italics and bold as well as underline it this time Simon - ERA. The 8F in its present mechanical condition is suitable for the late BR steam era. It is a steam locomotive, the 47 is a diesel. The 8F is in a contemporary BR passenger locomotive livery. The 8F currently operates as a passenger loco in a livery worn by locomotives of the same company, origin, pedigree, ERA and continued operational role. I don't know about you, but I've certainly never seen any photos of class 47's running around the midland region in the late 1950s in corporate blue with yellow panels - they weren't even built until 1962.... never mind the livery. The point here is that the livery currently worn by the 8F runs parallel with that of other midland region steam locos of the time.

 

I think you're missing the thrust of my argument entirely RE the 47 - of course it's a ridiculous comparison but then it runs along the same logic as the 8F in crimson livery.

 

Read as above ^

 

I'm not going to bang on about 4472, except to say that the only way you could happily get away with her in apple green (i.e keeping everyone happy and without rebuilding the whole engine....again) is to restore her to the condition in which Alan Pegler ran her until before the US mods were made.

[andyram]

Well hang on a moment - 4472 in private owner hands wore apple green in her double chimney condition (marchington era) and a classmate, humorist no less did do in revenue earning service! So is 4472 really that inaccurate compared to the crimson 8F?

 

All I am asking for is consistency of approach. If you accept the crimson 8F then you have to accept the apple green 4472. It's a nonsense to suggest otherwise.

 

The 47/8F comparison is valid because they were both locomotives in service for the same railway - the same logic applied to the LMS crimson 8F earlier in the thread.

 

Be consistent in your (I say this generally) approach and I have no issues but it seems such a ridiculous stretch to suggest a crimson 8F is more accurate and therefore more acceptable than an apple green 4472.

I suggest you READ the arguments. But I will spell it out.

 

1) The NRM is a museum which does not charge the public and sets its stall out to be AUTHENTIC. This is why it will not

- Restore Lode Star

- Replace the damaged mono-bloc cylinder to get Green Arrow back into service

- Restore Mallard to use

 

Doing so would render the above three locomotives, in York's words, INAUTHENTIC.

However it is happy to carry on what a private owner did in the past with 4472. For what York's edict is that is WRONG!

 

2) A Heritage line charges the public and requires passengers to keep itself alive. They cannot survive on enthusiast visits alone as I have already said and so they need to attract passengers in in as many ways as they can. Family events and named locos being part of this. Yes it is not authentic, but a Peppa Pig event is not authentic - neither are Moshi Monsters or Thomas. These events are vital to a railway's survival and if having a colourful named loco on the front brings people in to these, or regular operating weekends then job done, it keeps the line alive. The time to stress is if the railway uses such gimics at gala weekends when its target audience are enthusiasts!!! The 9F will be in unlined, weathered black at the May gala!

 

 

Yes, a lot of camera-toting guys turn up just to photograph the trains. I knew some of these guys and they were paid up members who had supported particular railways from the outset and had responded to the calls for extra money and to buy shares so that lines could be extended. They also organised photographic events that brought money in. I am just adding a dimension some of you may have overlooked, as to assume that everyone is a freeloader except oneself is naive.

I am not calling all photographers freeloaders far from it, many do the good work you have described above, but there are many others who see railways as a free day out and contribute nothing!

 

I too am a GCR volunteer of long standing. I have to say I think the line about takings rising when the engine isn't painted black sounds awfully dubious. Very often the website doesn't actually state what is running. Do people come to the booking office and ask what colour the engine is today before they decide whether to travel? Come on! What they DO ask on that basis is, 'is it a steam engine?'. The naming thing I have more sympathy for. The PDSR amongst others have learned that tourists like named engines, but if that isn't your market, again, there is no need to.

 

I happen to think 46521 looked good in lined green. I think the Red 8F is jarring; not as much as the lined 9F, but there are plenty of worse, prototypical liveries for engines! Some people really don't like 'Lamiel' in Bullied green.

 

Sorry to correct you Tom but the loco roster is featured on the railway's website!

[S.A.C Martin]

There's some really tired rhetoric going on here do all I will say is that those think putting a single chimney on Scotsman automatically puts it into an acceptable physical form for LNER livery need a reality check.

 

There's so much more that would need changing to make an authentic 4472 or 60103 and to get bogged down in those physical details but ignore the plain and simple fact that no 8F ever wore crimson lake livery by comparison just strikes me as yet another example of the partisan nature of some sections of railway preservation.

[Bon Accord]

I think the reality is that the NRM like any owner have to make most of their assets and it could be reasonably argued (if you are going to play the private owner card and history lesson at the same time) that 4472 in her current condition is actually LESS of a bastardised condition than when she was previously privately owned - why? A3 type boiler which the NRM had restored and fitted.

 

I think you're missing the thrust of my argument entirely RE the 47 - of course it's a ridiculous comparison but then it runs along the same logic as the 8F in crimson livery. All I ask for is a consistent approach. You can't keep slaing the NRM for painting the engine LNER green without at least acknowledging it's a damn sight more accurate and more worthy of wearing that livery than the 8F in crimson.

 

What I'm getting from this discussion is that the argument against the NRM is entirely based around the smoke deflectors and double chimney - two fairly minor things in comparison to the LH/RH drive problem and tender type in my view.

 

Yet somehow 4472 is more wrong, as an express engine wearing an express livery it itself almost singlehandedly made famous, than a freight engine, only ever painted black, now in express livery.

 

The public body/private owner argument doesn't take into account the full circumstances of 4472s overhaul or history and seems awfully biased in favour of the private owners and lambasting the NRM for the hell of it.

 

You want consistency, well hard cheese because you're not going to get it in the incredibly disparate preserved railway world now or ever. These things can only ever be looked at on a case by case basis in a sensible manner - comparing an 8F to a 47 is not sensible. Whether you like it nor, the NRM IS a special case and should have different rules, as should any museum  engaged in preservation - I made quite clear why I think that in my original post.

Regarding 4472, again read my original post. I made the point that it is a mish mash of a loco, hence why I clearly said that in LNER apple green with single chimney it should represent an LNER A3 yet not essentially be a genuine one because of the minefield of dates and modifications. In aesthetic terms the loco being LH or RH drive is visually insignificant compared to the double chimney and deflectors which are the 'face' of the loco, that's before we even go near the plethora of other mods required for main line running. You talk about the NRM making her more authentic by carrying an A4 boiler, this is equally insignificant because aside from a handful of rivet counters the majority of enthusiasts wouldn't be able to tell the difference never mind the public, in any case any claim made of making her more 'authentic' by fitting that boiler goes straight out the window by the insistence on the late BR front end with a livery appropriate 20 years previous. 4472 will always be a compromise, but they should at least make the effort for it to represent something rather nothing, as things stand she's merely being an abomination to almost every enthusiast regardless of preferred era.

The 8F is merely one of a number of (always black) LMS 8Fs still around, is not unique and is not owned by a public body with commensurate responsibilities. It just so happens it now wears the passenger livery of its owner, not some fanciful modern graffiti. I've no doubt it'll return to black at some point, but it's interesting to see a what if livery which is appropriate to the company for which it was built. If you still can't see the difference between that loco and the 9F situation compared to painting it BR blue a la a diesel, then I think I'm wasting my time.

[S.A.C Martin]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, though I think putting on the A3 boiler was not a waste of time and was a symbolic and positive move towards eventually restoring the locomotive to some semblance of authenticity.

 

I do think those who are so dismissive of 4472 do the NRM and the people who've worked on her a real disservice.

 

Not to mention totally overlooking the practicities of fitting a single chimney at this time or painting her BR dark green. Like the private owner the NRM have to make the most of their assets - can we really afford them no leeway whatsoever but give private owners free rein (rightly so but comparatively speaking) to do as they like?

 

4472 is a special case in herself and to decry the NRM and run them down when they've done all that they can in a practical manner for 4472 seems petty to me.

[Paul Cram]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, though I think putting on the A3 boiler was not a waste of time and was a symbolic and positive move towards eventually restoring the locomotive to some semblance of authenticity.

 

I do think those who are so dismissive of 4472 do the NRM and the people who've worked on her a real disservice.

 

Not to mention totally overlooking the practicities of fitting a single chimney at this time or painting her BR dark green. Like the private owner the NRM have to make the most of their assets - can we really afford them no leeway whatsoever but give private owners free rein (rightly so but comparatively speaking) to do as they like?

 

4472 is a special case in herself and to decry the NRM and run them down when they've done all that they can in a practical manner for 4472 seems petty to me.

It was you that said that the items should be authentic and carry the correct livery. We are just pointing out that museums have more responsibility than private owners. You seem to be the one back tracking by saying the NRM don't need to be authentic.