R.O.D.

[Chris hndrsn]

I have just purchased a book "The Belgian Vicinal: Tram and Light Rail Fleet 1885 - 1991" by Dirk Eveleens Maarse, published by the Light Rail Transit Association. It has details and images of the metre gauge tram engines and rolling stock produced (48 type 19 loco, plus a van and open wagon produced in the UK), and the Belgian Trams (Principally type 18 loco's) used during the war by the Railway Operating Division, primarily around Ypres. I will post some images over the coming days. It also has details of the twenty type 20 Alco of the US loco's purchased "of the shelf" for the Belgian Army.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[uax6]

If you have the L&Y wagons book, there are quite a few photos of wagons (open and box) that were photoed at Horwich either just before, or just after going to war. Some of these wagons were done as kits by MAJ and then by ABS (Fourmost?). Sadly I've learnt that Adrain has plenty of bodies, but the underframe moulds have been lost...

 

Andy G

[PhilJ W]

Interesting indeed, but not for me, I'm afraid.  I suspect British H0 modellers will steer clear because, though it ran in France and Belgium, it never ran in the UK and thus cannot be used on our UK layouts.  I will do the R.O.D. in 4mm, wait for the Hornby 0-6-0 due this summer(?) and build some stock up in anticipation.  One thing I would really like is a railway gun.  There is a very (very) expensive kit in (I think) 1/72 available but the H0 Model Power one can, I suspect, be used comfortably with 4mm figures.

You are talking about the Haswega 'Leopold' gun. There are quite a few on e-bay at the moment, a couple at less than £20. There was/is a conversion kit to enable it to run on 16.5 mm track available from Matador models.

[Chris hndrsn]

If you have the L&Y wagons book, there are quite a few photos of wagons (open and box) that were photoed at Horwich either just before, or just after going to war. Some of these wagons were done as kits by MAJ and then by ABS (Fourmost?). Sadly I've learnt that Adrain has plenty of bodies, but the underframe moulds have been lost...

 

Andy G

Andy,

 

Can you tell me the details/ISBN of the L&Y book, being from Australia it is not immediately obvious to me. Also I would have thought that rather than the L&YR that the point of embarkation for the rolling stock would have been in the London, Brigton and South Coast Railways network.

 

Also do you know of any websites I can view the MAJ and ABS ranges, I could not find websites on Google.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris hndrsn]

Is anyone able to tell me the details of coaches that made up the commanders trains. I would like to make up a representative train for my intended Great War themed layout: AWM image ref  H12252. "France. 16 November 1918. French Army Marshal F. Foch and British Army Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig entering the advanced General Headquarters train. (Donor Imperial War Museum Q7178)".

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Andy Hayter]

ABS unfortunately do not have a web presence.

[Chris hndrsn]

Andy,

 

Thank you. I have had a look at the 1920 Railway Gazette reprint and General Haig's Advanced GHQ train shown above was made by the LNWR from twelve 42' bogie Picnic Saloons, with another two 45" coaches as a generator van and a stores.brake van.

 

Does anyone know of any 42' LNWR Picnic Saloon kits?

 

 

On a parallel subject can anyone tell me, with a reference, which is which from the following two images. I ask as K.Davis's book has one of them as a Manning Wardle and a website refers to the same  loco as a Hawthorn Leslie and yet another as a Avonside and Hawthorn Leslie, I am slightly confused.

 

 

Cheers and thank you in anticipation!

Chris

[jwealleans]

D77 Picnic Saloon?  Here.

[PhilJ W]

Andy,

 

Thank you. I have had a look at the 1920 Railway Gazette reprint and General Haig's Advanced GHQ train shown above was made by the LNWR from twelve 42' bogie Picnic Saloons, with another two 45" coaches as a generator van and a stores.brake van.

 

Does anyone know of any 42' LNWR Picnic Saloon kits?

 

 

On a parallel subject can anyone tell me, with a reference, which is which from the following two images. I ask as K.Davis's book has one of them as a Manning Wardle and a website refers to the same  loco as a Hawthorn Leslie and yet another as a Avonside and Hawthorn Leslie, I am slightly confused.

 

 

Cheers and thank you in anticipation!

Chris

They were built by Avonside (wks no. 1703-14) built in 1915.

[EddieB]

Sorry, but which book (K Davis or WJK Davies?) and website do these pictures come from, and where were the pictures taken?

 

Certainly Avonside supplied a batch of 2'6" gauge 60hp petrol locomotives to the War Office (builders numbers as Phil gives).

[The Stationmaster]

I presume the pictures come from here -

 

http://www.awm.gov.au/search/all/?query=railways+in+egypt&op=Search&format=list&relatedFilter=related_events&filter%5Btype%5D=Photograph&section%5B0%5D=collections

 

I suspect they might be Egypt although possibly further north into Mesopotamia - ah, now traced, the site indicates the lower picture was a light railway on the seashore between Port Said and Mohamidiya

[PhilJ W]

I presume the pictures come from here -

 

http://www.awm.gov.au/search/all/?query=railways+in+egypt&op=Search&format=list&relatedFilter=related_events&filter%5Btype%5D=Photograph&section%5B0%5D=collections

 

I suspect they might be Egypt although possibly further north into Mesopotamia - ah, now traced, the site indicates the lower picture was a light railway on the seashore between Port Said and Mohamidiya

An excellent site, ideal for anyone modelling wartime military railways in North Africa. Also I noticed the same or very similar passenger stock was used to transport troops in both world wars, the six wheel stock with horizontal matchboard sides and unglazed windows, there are interior shots as well. 

[Chris hndrsn]

They were built by Avonside (wks no. 1703-14) built in 1915.

Which one?

 

I know officially, from the 1920 Railway Gazette quoting an official report from 1917, that there were three Manning Wardle locomotives running around.

 

Chris

 

Sorry, but which book (K Davis or WJK Davies?) and website do these pictures come from, and where were the pictures taken?

 

Certainly Avonside supplied a batch of 2'6" gauge 60hp petrol locomotives to the War Office (builders numbers as Phil gives).

Eddie,

 

K Davis and D Bishop - Railways and War before 1918

[PhilJ W]

Which one?

 

I know officially, from the 1920 Railway Gazette quoting an official report from 1917, that there were three Manning Wardle locomotives running around.

 

Chris

 

Eddie,

 

K Davis and D Bishop - Railways and War before 1918

The locomotives were all built to a similar design but each manufacturers product had identifiable differences, the curvature of the top corners of the side panels and vents and access panels for instance and the length of the bonnets. The Avonside locomotives are an exact match to the photographs.

[Chris hndrsn]

The locomotives were all built to a similar design but each manufacturers product had identifiable differences, the curvature of the top corners of the side panels and vents and access panels for instance and the length of the bonnets. The Avonside locomotives are an exact match to the photographs.

Sorry Phil,

 

But no they aren't an exact match, they are two different locomotives. The first image is this type of loco, from http://www.railalbum.co.uk/mystery/mystery04.htm

 

Where it is described as:

 

"This First World War view was taken on the 2ft 6ins gauge Port Said (east to) Mahembiya military line built by the British in 1916 as part of the Suez Canal defences. There were 23 of these 0-4-0P 55hp locos built by Hawthorn Leslie B/No. 3107-29 in 1915 as part of the RE "siege packs" and were ROD Nos. 61-83. All of these worked on various 2ft 6ins gauge lines in the Middle East in Egypt / Sinai / Palestine. The Port Said line was exclusively worked by petrol locos, including some by Avonside." 

 

If that is correct, I would like to find the posters (AH) reference source.

 

The second image I posted from the Australian War Memorial is a noticeably different type of locomotive, which I believe (based on nearby rolling stock, may be on what was close to Metre gauge track.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris hndrsn]

D77 Picnic Saloon?  Here.

Spot on, thank you, they even have the 45' brake vans based on the Picnic Saloons.

[EddieB]

As a quick response, 4-wheel petrol locomotives were built for the Secretary of State/War Office/ROD by Avonside, Hawthorn Leslie and Manning Wardle.  The following is taken from builders lists compiled by loco historians.  I haven't yet checked published sources or other builders (which I'll do when time permits).

 

MW Std. gauge 180hp b/ns 1867-1876, ROD nos. 1-10

 "       "        "         "               1945-1954, ROD nos 1691-1700

AE 2'6" gauge 60hp b/ns 1703-1714, ROD nos. 31-42

HL 2'6" gauge 55hp b/ns 3107-3129, ROD nos 61-83.

 

There are photos of the MW locos in "The Locomotives Built By Manning Wardle & Company - Volume 1 (Standard Gauge)" (Harman).

[Chris hndrsn]

Eddie,

 

Thank you. So one would suspect that the two images I have seen, and posted, are actually the two different 2'6" gauge loco's,

 

 

Chris

[EddieB]

I'm starting to delve into the literature, and it might be worth listing out some of the major sources available.  This isn't intended to be a comprehensive list.

 

Given that Aves and the Railway Gazette reprint have been mentioned already (both recommended), here are some further titles:

 

Narrow Gauge at War Volumes 1 and 2 (Taylorson)

Light Track from Arras (Heritage);

Light Railways of the First World War (WJK Davies)

Transportation on the Western Front (Henniker - written from a military/logistics perspective)

 

1ngram mentioned the series of articles in "Railway Magazine" during the early nineteen-thirties.  For many years these were just about the only source in print.  In the 1970s a hand-written list of locomotives loaned to the ROD by the pre-grouping railway companies was found in a second-hand book.  A transcription is still up on the web, and may be found here: http://www.railalbum.co.uk/articles/rod-locos.htm.  The original list is thought to date from around the time of the Railway Magazine articles, but I don't know whether the two are connected.

 

The articles which appeared in Railway Magazine were spread over several issues.  Pre-grouping companies were covered under their post-grouping identities.

 

Sep 1932 - Locomotives of the Railway Operating Division, Royal Engineers, 1916-1919 Part I - Southern and Great Western Railways.

Oct 1932 - (ditto) Part II - LMS

Nov 1932 - (ditto) Part III - LNER

Dec 1932 - (ditto) Part IV - Ministry of Munitions Locomotives [essentially the GCR/Robinson 2-8-0 type + corrections/updates to earlier parts]

Jan 1933 - (ditto) Part V - [Locomotives for overseas railways diverted to ROD]

Feb 1933 - Part VI British passenger coaches sent overseas.

 

(At which point I have a gap in my collection - and I am missing the edition that contains Part VII Goods wagons).

 

 

As far as petrol locomotives (or "tractors") are concerned, there is something of a dearth of infomation on those built by Manning Wardle, Hawthorn Leslie and Avonside.  The works cited tend to concentrate on other petrol locomotives, namely the Simplex 20/40HP types, Baguley/McEwan Pratt 10HP, British Westinghouse/Nasmyth Wilson and Dirk Kerr 40HP designs.  These were joined by "Crewe tractors" (essentially an adapted Model T Ford), further locomotives built by Baldwin and some captured Deutz locomotives.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm starting to delve into the literature, and it might be worth listing out some of the major sources available.  This isn't intended to be a comprehensive list.

 

Given that Aves and the Railway Gazette reprint have been mentioned already (both recommended), here are some further titles:

 

Narrow Gauge at War Volumes 1 and 2 (Taylorson)

Light Track from Arras (Heritage);

Light Railways of the First World War (WJK Davies)

Transportation on the Western Front (Henniker - written from a military/logistics perspective)

 

1ngram mentioned the series of articles in "Railway Magazine" during the early nineteen-thirties.  For many years these were just about the only source in print.  In the 1970s a hand-written list of locomotives loaned to the ROD by the pre-grouping railway companies was found in a second-hand book.  A transcription is still up on the web, and may be found here: http://www.railalbum.co.uk/articles/rod-locos.htm.  The original list is thought to date from around the time of the Railway Magazine articles, but I don't know whether the two are connected.

 

The articles which appeared in Railway Magazine were spread over several issues.  Pre-grouping companies were covered under their post-grouping identities.

 

Sep 1932 - Locomotives of the Railway Operating Division, Royal Engineers, 1916-1919 Part I - Southern and Great Western Railways.

Oct 1932 - (ditto) Part II - LMS

Nov 1932 - (ditto) Part III - LNER

Dec 1932 - (ditto) Part IV - Ministry of Munitions Locomotives [essentially the GCR/Robinson 2-8-0 type + corrections/updates to earlier parts]

Jan 1933 - (ditto) Part V - [Locomotives for overseas railways diverted to ROD]

Feb 1933 - Part VI British passenger coaches sent overseas.

 

(At which point I have a gap in my collection - and I am missing the edition that contains Part VII Goods wagons).

 

 

In addition to the above in 'The Railway Magazine'

 

March 1933 - Part VII  British wagon stock sent overseas

May 1933   - Part VIII Rolling Stock  (supplementary information received from various correspondents regarding locos and stock)

 

July 1933 Footplate Work With the ROD In France   -  a recollection from someone who had been involved, very interesting comments about various types of engines and thei popularity.

 

I think there were also some articles in The Railway Magazine in the 1920s 

[Chris hndrsn]

William Shelford over at the Great War Forum, kindly posted this information about the Royal Engineers ROD light railways in Egypt and Palestine:

 

"Posted Today, 08:18 AM

Both photographs show a 2'6" gauge light railway in Egypt. The first line here was built in early 1916  from Port Said to Mohamedieh (near Romani) in Egypt. Later in 1917 after the Turks had been pushed back into Palestine, the 2'6" (and 60cm) gauge light railway equipment was redeployed nearer the front lines. A 2'6" line being constructed from Deir-el-Balah on the coast towards Shellal, near Gamli, running along the south side of the Wadi Gaza valley.

I am no expert on these campaigns, so possibly someone could enlighten us.?

 

The first photograph is as you said one of Hawthorn Leslie 0-4-0PM (Petrol Mechanical) 2'6" gauge locomotives. Built in1915 and allocated works numbers 3107-29 they were numbered by the ROD 61-83. These had Gardner four-cylinder engines of 55hp at 600 rpm. The transmission was via a disc friction clutch and a three-speed gearbox, giving speeds of 4, 8 and 15 mph. Coupling rods connected the wheels which were worm driven from the gearbox. Weight was 8.75 tons, with 27" diameter wheels and a wheelbase of 5ft.

 

The second photo is more interesting as it is the first one I have seen showing a front view of the 0-4-0PM locomotives also used on these lines in Egypt build by the Avonside Engine Co. of Bristol. Built in 1915 and allocated works numbers 1703-14, these were numbered by the ROD 31-42. These had Parsons four-cylinder engines of 60hp at 550rpm, and a four speed gearbox giving speeds of 2.5, 5, 10 and 15 mph. Weight was 9 tons 2 cwt., with 24" coupled wheels and a wheelbase of 4ft. Overall dimensions were length 12ft 1.5in, height 8ft 9in, width 5ft 6in.

 

Manning Wardle did build ten standard gauge 0-4-0PM locomotives for the Ministry of Munitions. None are recorded as going overseas. Comment: I pointed out that three did operate on standard gauge in Palestine as quoted in the Special War Transportaiton Number of the Railway Gazette in 1920.

 

Published sources on these light railways and their equipment is sparse, in compiling the above notes, I have consulted the following:

   The British Internal Combustion Locomotive 1894-1940 by Brian Webb, published by David and Charles in 1973

   Narrow Gauge at War 2 by Keith Taylorson, published by Plateway Press in 1996

   Middle East Railways by Hugh Hughes, published by the Continental Railway Circle in 1981 (although this was of very little help, other than confirming works and running numbers).

 

The choice of 2'6" gauge for these lines is interesting. Following pre-war experiments, 2' 6" was chosen by the military for siege railways, despite the Germans and French choosing 60cm (1ft 11 5/8") gauge, as both counties (especially France) had built a lot of these lines to serve rural areas.

So when light railways were found to be required on the Western Front, the War Office had to adopt 60cm gauge. It was however decided that railways in other theatres would stick to 2' 6". Hence the use of 60cm in France/Belgium, 2'6" gauge in Egypt (with some 60cm diverted from the Western Front), and metre gauge in East Africa, where the lines were built using the Indian Army Military Railway reserve (this was later replaced in 1920 by surplus 60cm equipment). Kenya has metre gauge railways to this day, despite a realisation from the 1920's onwards that 3'6" gauge as used in South Africa would be better. 

 

After the war in the UK, the Army did its best to avoid narrow gauge railways, but those it had were 60cm gauge, the Admiralty used 2'6" gauge in armament depots and dockyards (except for these at Gibraltar and Singapore which used metre gauge), while the RAF decided to use 2ft gauge in its armament depots. So much for standardisation!"

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris hndrsn]

......................

 

I think there were also some articles in The Railway Magazine in the 1920s 

There was an article about 1921 on a Royal Coach on the light railways. I am awaiting a copy.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris hndrsn]

In the Volume XLVIII, Jan-Jun 1921 series of TRM there are two articles on the operations of the ROD in France written by MC Robson, pages 81-88 and pages 169-175. There is also an image on page 147 of "A Royal Saloon on the MIlitary Light Railways in France", showing a converted D class bogie wagon running behind a 20hp Simplex tractor. I will post the image later.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

In the Volume XLVIII, Jan-Jun 1921 series of TRM there are two articles on the operations of the ROD in France written by MC Robson, pages 81-88 and pages 169-175. There is also an image on page 147 of "A Royal Saloon on the MIlitary Light Railways in France", showing a converted D class bogie wagon running behind a 20hp Simplex tractor. I will post the image later.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

That's the ones I was thinking of - some very useful source material in there which I used for some writing a good few years ago.  There used to be an excellent selection of bound 'Railway Magazines' in Swindon municipal library but they seemed to decrease in number and were eventually taken off public display although you were still allowed access for research purposes.  A set of 1920s ones would be nice but the last ones I saw came up in auction at the same time as a set of 1930s bound volumes and I didn't have room for both so only bought the 1930s ones.

[Chris hndrsn]

This is the image of the Royal Saloon from the 1921 Railway Magazine I mentioned previously. Cleary it is a converted D class bogie wagon with a half length enclosure, stove and corrugated iron roof.

 

 

Being somewhat of a pedant for historical accuracy, note that the magazine describes the saloon as being on the "military light railways" not as being on the WDLR. So unfortunate that enthusiasts today incorrectly describe the military light railway networks operating in France as being the WDLR, when the W/|\D prefix painted or stamped onto equipment meant that it had been produced specifically to a War Department contract, and was owned by the British Army.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris