Washout at Dawlish

[The Stationmaster]

Just heard an interview on the BBC news with the Exeter MP - he said a route via Haldon Hill should be considered, but it's going to take a long time

The 1936 inland route involved 4 tunnels totalling 2 miles in length so if they follow a similar line for a new approach it won't be cheap - and that's without considering the change from what was then a route almost entirely through open country to one which would now involve at least some areas which have been developed.   The total length of the 1936 route was 8m 61 ch although if the 1937 variant were to be adopted it would rise to 13m 09ch but that would, I reckon, definitely involve residential property demolition at the Exminster end.   A quick look at Google maps suggests that if the 1936 route were to be adopted it would go through an area which has become considerably built up on the inland side of Teignmouth in particular.

 

As for an idea of cost HS1 cost =£84million per mile, HS2 is estimated to be likely to cost =£116 million per mile although these are very broad brush comparisons and could be misleading for all sorts of reasons.  The 1936 scheme envisaged retaining the coastal route although the possibility of a station on the new line to serve Teignmouth was considered.  Incidentally the 1936 route was 69ch shorter than the existing coastal route - any deviation around what has become built up inland of Teignmouth will either increase the length of result in more tunnelling.

 

So in other words building a new inland route is likely to be neither cheap nor - probably - wholly welcomed in certain parts of Teignmouth (if nowhere else), and it certainly won't be completed by the next winter storm season.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Time to stop throwing good money after bad, and adopt an inland route which is secure and suitable for electrification. Does an inland route - whichever is adopted - need so much tunnelling with modern traction offering far greater power to weight ratio than steam?

 

As for the inevitable objections wherever an inland route is placed: somehow HS1 was built across part of the most densely populated quarter of the island. This is what representative democracy is for, making unwelcome decisions in a reasonable way. The alternative for Devon and Cornwall is the main line terminating at the new Exeter Ikb'bad Exchange station, positioned adjacent the M5/A30/A380 junction.

Edited February 5, 2014 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[SwissRailPassion]

It may be cheaper to rebuild from Okehampton and use it as a secondary and diversion route.

[Mallard60022]

What a short sited  decision it was to close the Southern route between Exeter and Plymouth. It left just one rail link into Plymouth and Cornwall.

 

Keith.

I think this situation at Dawlish and those elsewhere in the last few weeks help demonstrate how the climate has changed in just 50 years. I don't want to start a slanging match about climate change here but these storms are here now and they are scary. 

P

Edited February 5, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Rivercider]

I was staying in Dawlish Warren in January and walked along the sea wall into Dawlish,

it was pointed out that, following the previous recent storms, the level of the sand and pebbles on the beach was much lower than usual.

Here are a couple of pictures from our walk, there are more 'steps' of the toe defence visible than usual, I woner if the scouring had already started?

 

 

 

cheers

[multiprinter]

Perhaps the rebuilding will do away, once and for all, with the primitive idea of rail on sleeper on ballast and use a concrete slab base. How many times has the ballast been washed away over the years?

Edited February 5, 2014 by multiprinter

[The Stationmaster]

It may be cheaper to rebuild from Okehampton and use it as a secondary and diversion route.

The route was always subject to weather influence as well plus it would probably cost more than an inland diversion at Dawlish if it were to be brought right up to modern standards - and it would involve residential demolitions plus some major bridgeworks although it would at least put Okehampton and Tavistock back on the rail network.

 

 

What about using pile driving to get a good deep defence in as if the sea can wash under the sub structure can't be too hard and sand stone is a softest stone to drive into if below the beach line.

As I said earlier I think something like this has to be part of a long term solution - what exists at the moment seems basically to be a curtain wall (in places on far from deep foundations) with fill of various sorts behind it.  Once the curtain wall is damaged the fill will simply wash out - as it has done.

[Mallard60022]

Mike, hasn't 'Tavistock' been asking for a renewed rail link to Plymouth for years now?

P

[Rivercider]

It is not just the sea wall at Dawlish that is the problem on this route.

Following heavy rain in November 2012 (?) there were a number of slips from the cliff onto the line on the Teignmouth sea wall section.

I believe there was a thread with input and info from Captain Kernow  about it.

One of the most serious had a continuous watch put on it, we walked past the watchman several time over the following  months.

In January when we used the train to Paignton I noticed the 30mph(?) temporary speed restriction is still on and the watchman

was present on the sea wall, has he been there for the whole 15 months?  

 

cheers

[Oldddudders]

As a Southern sort of bloke, yes, renewing the old route via Okehampton sounds rather jolly, even though not a few houses would be under threat. But I have to point out that, both at Exeter and Plymouth, reversals would be necessary, and these are an operational curse.

 

As for Teignmouth, I believe we have at least one RMweb member who admits to residing there, and he may be able to offer a local's view!

[lmsforever]

I sympathise with the Network Rail people who have to go out in the bad weather to repair, check the damage on the network they are risking their safety lets hope they are okay.Surely the inland route must be considered now as this weather seems to be here to stay.

[Titan]

Perhaps the rebuilding will do away, once and for all, with the primitive idea of rail on sleeper on ballast and use a concrete slab base. How many times has the ballast been washed away over the years?

Concrete does not work, it is insufficiently flexible, as well as being more expensive. 

 

Far easier to replace ballast than to remove a cracked and fragmented concrete base, and cast a new one, which is what would happen if it was scoured out from underneath like at Dawlish. Its also a lot easier to adjust or change the formation if required with ballast, as well as providing drainage.

[Rivercider]

Mike, hasn't 'Tavistock' been asking for a renewed rail link to Plymouth for years now?

P

Devon County Council wants to reopen this part of the route, it is mentioned on the Devon County Council website

there was Public Consultation about it in January and February 2013,

 

cheers

[Glorious NSE]

Time to stop throwing good money after bad, and adopt an inland route which is secure and suitable for electrification. Does an inland route - whichever is adopted - need so much tunnelling with modern traction offering far greater power to weight ratio than steam?

 

Short answer is likely to be yes you'll need tunnels!

 

I don't think the 1936 route is a real option anymore due to development, but I think one linking Teigngrace (on the Heathfield branch) and Powderham could be done without massive impact on existing development - but a the cost of a lot of work, and pushing the line through "green field" space.

 

The line at Exeter and Newton Abbot is not far off sea level, much of the land in between is high ground, and the hills steep sided - your choices are huge, visually disruptive embankments to climb it, or tunnels to go under it, with the latter always going to have advantages in terms of less flak from locals and environmentalists plus disruption...

[Glorious NSE]

Perhaps the rebuilding will do away, once and for all, with the primitive idea of rail on sleeper on ballast and use a concrete slab base. How many times has the ballast been washed away over the years?

 

Concrete slab track might help in places where it's just a bit of ballast washed away, but concrete slab track floating on thin air is not likely to be strong enough to run trains over...

[gordon s]

Lunchtime news is suggesting the line will be out for 6 weeks...

[pointstaken]

Just watching the BBC lunchtime news. Usual inane question from a journalist to an NR engineer, looking at the washed away foundations -

"How long is it going to take to repair ?". With another inane journo parroting "4 to 6 weeks to repair". When the storms finally abate we will no doubt be informed accordingly, or perhaps it will have faded from the media, while they hype up something else.

 

Dennis

[roythebus]

BBC News now saying 6-8 weeks...

[HillsideDepot]

The video clip part way down this BBC story shows how bad it is now, and as others have said, it's going to get worse yet.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26044323

 

A sad sight for those of us with an interest in railways, but a whole lot worse for the house owners just above the line.

[Vanders]

Is it my imagination or were similarly "optimistic" figures being talked about in the early days of the Hatfield landslip?

[Glorious NSE]

Is it my imagination or were similarly "optimistic" figures being talked about in the early days of the Hatfield landslip?

 

IIRC that after a "realistic" estimate was given, NR actually managed to get it back open a lot quicker...

 

"Wait and see" seems to be the most accurate answer, for the moment at least.

[cromptonnut]

pushing the line through "green field" space.

 

I really don't see that as an issue.

 

Up here we have a big fight going on for new houses - on a flood plain.  The local council rejected the application unanimously, so the developer (with more money) hired a hotshot lawyer which basically out-argued common sense from the locals who knew that it was a problem - and that measures in the new development to "divert away" rainwater would cause bigger problems with already flood-prone areas nearby.

 

We are too sentimental about not building on certain areas when there is an essential need.  When you consider the amount of massive, unnecessary "out of town developments" that get passed thanks to a few brown envelopes under the table, I hardly think a strip of land taken for a railway line, which has proven econonical benefits, across mostly open fields even comes close.

 

As I see it, there are 3 alternatives.

 

1) Build a new, inland, alternative.

 

2) Keep throwing money at the sea wall only for it to be closed regularly due to the weather and the risk of serious damage in the future.

 

3) Cut off everything west of Exeter by rail from the rest of the UK.

 

Out of those three options I'd say 1 is by far the most sensible.

[Glorious NSE]

I'm sure the residents of Dawlish and Teignmouth won't agree with #1...

 

(or #3)

[cromptonnut]

I'm sure the residents of Dawlish and Teignmouth won't agree with #1...

 

(or #3)

 

Perhaps not, but this issue is much bigger than the residents of Dawlish and Teignmouth.  It's pretty much everything west of Exeter that is affected.

[Kenton]

Option #3 has its appeal (along with independence for Kernowland)

 

Perhaps long term improving the road network is a simpler option.

 

It is a bit like the Cambrian coast debate, it is about time we stopped trying to play at being King Canute, throwing money away on providing incomplete and temporary solutions. Start by spending it when it can do the most value instead of reacting to the media's latest hue and cry.

 

There is nothing new. The coast has been eroded here (and elsewhere) for centuries. All that man has done is still barriers in the way to try and prevent nature taking its course. Those barriers are but temporary.

 

Next will be the media claiming that Chesil beach is being washed away (another "news" story they can drivel on about on their way home to the studios in London to report on the chaos and £billions lost from the London economy by the tube strike.