Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Simond]

3 hours ago, Donw said:

 It was impressive I wondered if any of Telford New Town will still be standing in AD3500.

 

probably, and there will still be nowhere to park

[Donw]

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

Sorry, still on Roman roads rather the Cambrian, Wall (Letocetum) was the next settlement on Watling Street heading  to London, in Staffordshire. There’s even less there than there is at Wroxeter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall,_Staffordshire

I used to travel along this leg before they invented the M54, going back to college on Sunday nights, and it struck me that for an “A” road, it was the most loneliest, deserted stretch going, certainly no Vikings. Waggle your fingers for us, please, Mikkel.

Not the same place the area I am talking about was part of Wroxeter.  Between the Old A5 and the road coming from Ironbridge to Atcham.  I think there are rather a lot of places called Wall and there is Wallend up north

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Donw said:

Not the same place the area I am talking about was part of Wroxeter.  Between the Old A5 and the road coming from Ironbridge to Atcham.  I think there are rather a lot of places called Wall and there is Wallend up north

 

Wall, Letocetum, is a quite specific place: https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/wall-roman-site/. There must have been reasonably substantial remains above ground level when the later settlement got its name.

 

But yes, Wroxeter is more impressive, with the "Old Work" being the largest freestanding bit of Roman building in the country.

 

[My photo.]

 

[Northroader]

That piece of wall always impressed me as a kid, just the age and associations of it. These days, I can’t understand the qualifications as the largest freestanding Roman building, when you look at the Saxon Shore Forts. Admittedly, they came nearly three hundred years later.

with the Wrekin in the background of that picture, it’s a good time to leave you with the Housman poem:

https://www.oatridge.co.uk/poems/a/ae-housman-on-wenlock-edge-the-woods-in-trouble.php

Edited October 22, 2020 by Northroader

[ChrisN]

To underline the greatness of the Cambrian on those who need it underlined, I have a book.

 

 

I have seen this book advertised for years on Ebay.  Well, it has been advertised but it is wrong t say I have seen it as usually it does not have any image.  Now as I have this book as a free download from the Project Gutenburg, and seeing it without an image I have often wanted to ask the seller the question, "Is that a print out of the free download?"  

 

I then saw one that said, "Reprint", and it had a picture.  Why have a reprint when you have the download?  I then saw this one which is an original, printed in 1922, just as the Cambrian took over the GWR.

 

 

This copy is dated 1928.  This is the first history of the Cambrian Railways and is an interesting read, not least because the style of writing is, er, almost Victorian.  So a piece of history for less than a tenner.

 

Next time, maybe some modelling.  If you have been, thanks for looking.

[corneliuslundie]

I too have the free download. But I too bought a copy when one came up for sale at a very reasonable price. though of the 1973 reprint.

Yes, an interesting read though not strong on the technical details we modellers tend to look for.

But how dare Newport Libraries have declared it "surplus"! Even though it meant that I could buy it.

Another, small, book, though in our library rather than my bookshelf, is “Mishaps on the Cambrian Railways” by Elwyn V Jones (Severn Press, 1972). Rather too many accidents I am afraid. Nine deaths of railway staff alone in 1869.

Jonathan

[Nick Gough]

34 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

But how dare Newport Libraries have declared it "surplus"! Even though it meant that I could buy it.

 

Our county library service used to have hundreds of railway books, the likes of OPC, Ian Allen, etc.

Most of these seem to have 'disappeared' over the last ten years or so leaving a small number of mostly generic titles.

I reckon I have more railway books in my personal collection now, than they do, judging by the small amount, occupying about half a shelf, in our local library 

[ChrisN]

55 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I too have the free download. But I too bought a copy when one came up for sale at a very reasonable price. though of the 1973 reprint.

Yes, an interesting read though not strong on the technical details we modellers tend to look for.

But how dare Newport Libraries have declared it "surplus"! Even though it meant that I could buy it.

Another, small, book, though in our library rather than my bookshelf, is “Mishaps on the Cambrian Railways” by Elwyn V Jones (Severn Press, 1972). Rather too many accidents I am afraid. Nine deaths of railway staff alone in 1869.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I think I have seen that book advertised, somewhere, but to be honest I try and avoid that sort of thing.  C. C. Green's books have a fair number of accidents in them.  The railway was a dangerous place with dangerous practises.

[Compound2632]

Although often making grim reading, the Railway Inspectorate accident reports can be a mine of information on the operating practices of the day, along with the actual composition of trains.

[Simond]

It’s sad but true, and I don’t know whom I’m (mis)quoting but words to the effect of “every improvement in Railway Safety is written in the blood of innocent victims“.
 

Same is pretty much true of cars (read “Unsafe at any speed”) and I'd submit, ships (Birkenhead, Titanic), airliners (Comet), buildings (Grenfell), theatres, and just about every other field of human endeavour.

 

I guess the clever bit is learning from others’ mistakes, rather than suffering them (in person or by proxy) yourself.

 

Here endeth the lesson for philosophical engineers...

 

atb

Simon

 

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, all the information about the rolling stock involved in the 1907 Abermule accident came from the report, including the fact that one vehicle which should have had brakes didn't have any. (See Brian Poole's article in a recent Welsh Railways Archive).

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

For those of a nervous, (or GWR, LCDR, or any other line), disposition, look away now.

 

 

Monday was looking after Grandchild day.  We were told how much she would like to see her cousins so we contacted my eldest son to see where we could all meet.  My wife favoured the beach.  My son thought it would be too cold.  I of course kept my head down.  When all had drawn a blank and no agreement was reached I asked if one and a half hours was too far for him and his children to travel.  (His son loves railways, and they both love their cousin.)  "No," he said, so, much to my wife's irritation we meet at the Bluebell Railway.

 

 

I thought for a moment we had the LCDR six wheelers, but this was almost as good.  Four Met carriages, a Birdcage brake, and a ten compartment third, never found out which one.  We had a compartment in the Birdcage, complete with door to a toilet, , which was locked.  .  Everyone, including my wife, was impressed at how well upholstered the seats were, and only for third class passengers.  Everyone, especially my wife, really enjoyed their day.

 

Just a note on the coaches.  Look at those footboards.  Honestly, you think they would have taken the trouble to check their heights, let alone sorting out how curly they are.  And the roofs (yes I know I  started with a conjunction, it's for emphasis), they are all bent.  They ought to read Simond's tip on how to make them properly.

 

This loco is pulling the trains all week so I am lead to understand.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Sasquatch]

Looks like a grand day out Chris. I use to take girls on dates to Horsted Keynes , including Mrs S.

It's like stepping back in time and being on a film set both at once. Then the steam train pulls in and the brownie point counter goes off the scale!!!

 

I'm wondering if the second coach in that rake is a former Colonel Stevens vehicle. Might explain the lower foot board. There's a certain charm to older rolling stock that is lost in the modern mass production of today's models. The craftsmanship of the real thing makes you realize somethings have been well and truly lost forever!

 

Enjoying your thread BTW

 

Shaun 

[Mikkel]

Excellent strategizing, Chris. With a little more work your wife will suggest the Bluebell herself next time.

 

6 hours ago, ChrisN said:

(yes I know I  started with a conjunction, it's for emphasis)

 

Fear not:  https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/words-to-not-begin-sentences-with

[Nick Gough]

Well manoeuvred Chris.

One benefit of the current situation is the greater reliance on vintage compartment stock at both standard and narrow gauge lines.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

I'm wondering if the second coach in that rake is a former Colonel Stevens vehicle.

 

All former Col. Stephens carriages were somebody else's before they came to him! Looking at the patter of the doors, I detect lavatories and a brake, or at least luggage, end. A moment's further reflection reveals it to be the SECR birdcage brake in which @ChrisN and his party were travelling. Inspecting the Bluebell's stock list reveals that it is SECR 2nd/3rd lavatory composite brake of 1910 No. 1084, later SR 3363, as which it is currently presented. The leading flush-sided third is another ex-SECR vehicle, No. 1098 of 1922.

 

The Metropolitan carriages date from 1898.1900, 120 years ago they would have sagged less.

 

Apologies, I'm a compulsive carriage-spotter.

[BlueLightning]

53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The Metropolitan carriages date from 1898.1900, 120 years ago they would have sagged less.

 

Interesting survivors, that the Bluebell consider themselves very lucky to have in the current circumstances, when they were saved the Bluebell had approached BR for some stock, who told them they could have any withdrawn coaches they wanted for £200 each. London Transport sold them the rake of 4 Metropolitans for £100, and they were in a good enough condition to enter service straight away!

 

Makes me wonder what else could have survived if BR had a pricing policy like LT!

 

Gary

[ChrisN]

12 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

Looks like a grand day out Chris. I use to take girls on dates to Horsted Keynes , including Mrs S.

It's like stepping back in time and being on a film set both at once. Then the steam train pulls in and the brownie point counter goes off the scale!!!

 

I'm wondering if the second coach in that rake is a former Colonel Stevens vehicle. Might explain the lower foot board. There's a certain charm to older rolling stock that is lost in the modern mass production of today's models. The craftsmanship of the real thing makes you realize somethings have been well and truly lost forever!

 

Enjoying your thread BTW

 

Shaun 

 

Shaun,

Thank you.  My thread jumps about a bit, but I do have a plan, honest.

 

@Compound2632 has managed to get in before me, as we went out for a walk half way through me posting.  Yes it is a Birdcage brake, and I realise now that we were in a second class compartment.  I did look in other compartments and the upholstery was all the same so it has obviously it has been refurbished.

 

We went round Steam, the GWR museum, and saw all the different works they had.  The skills then were truly amazing, but the skill set has changed with a lot more automation.  The light came on in the compartment about 3/4 of the way through the journey and I twigged that we were about to enter a tunnel so all the windows went up as one grand daughter has asthma.  I then explained how in the early days it would have been oil lamps, then gas lamps, to which one replied that they thought it would not have been very safe with tanks of gas under the train.  I agreed but did not explain too much.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I realise now that we were in a second class compartment.  I did look in other compartments and the upholstery was all the same so it has obviously it has been refurbished.

When did the SECR abolish second class? 1912? The carriage is presented in Southern livery will all compartments marked third.

[ChrisN]

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Excellent strategizing, Chris. With a little more work your wife will suggest the Bluebell herself next time.

 

 

Fear not:  https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/words-to-not-begin-sentences-with

 

Mikkel, 

I had to check first.  It was one of the Russian Grand Chess Masters, Spasky I think, who allowed their opponents to play as they wished, when suddenly the opponents realised that they had been manoeuvred into a trap and were stuck.    I was on a winner as my son, his children, and my daughter-in-law who was not there all like trains so so seeing cousins and trains was bound to be a winner.

 

Thank you for the link.  I always find it embarrassing that I know no Danish, (I am useless at languages), and you probably speak English better than wot I do.

[ChrisN]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

When did the SECR abolish second class? 1912? The carriage is presented in Southern livery will all compartments marked third.

 

Yes, I think it was a general abolition in 1912, apart from those bigger companies who were able to do it earlier.  The Cambrian tried in the 1890s but came unstuck as the GWR still sent Tri-composites as through coaches a LNWR and GWR 2nd class passengers got upset travelling in Cambrian 3rd class compartments.  They had to re-instate it but abolished with everyone else in 1912.

Edited October 29, 2020 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

On 28/10/2020 at 07:22, Nick Gough said:

Well manoeuvred Chris.

One benefit of the current situation is the greater reliance on vintage compartment stock at both standard and narrow gauge lines.

 

Nick,

I always think all coaches should have compartments, even if it leads one side onto a corridor.  We arrived as the train pulled in and all I could see was polished wood and I thought for a moment that they were the LCDR six wheelers.  Not to be though.

 

On 28/10/2020 at 09:54, BlueLightning said:

 

Interesting survivors, that the Bluebell consider themselves very lucky to have in the current circumstances, when they were saved the Bluebell had approached BR for some stock, who told them they could have any withdrawn coaches they wanted for £200 each. London Transport sold them the rake of 4 Metropolitans for £100, and they were in a good enough condition to enter service straight away!

 

Makes me wonder what else could have survived if BR had a pricing policy like LT!

 

Gary

 

Gary, I was told sixty quid.  At the time my brother-in-law was a printer and earning £30.00 per week, my dad £20.00 or there abouts, so not peanuts, but a good price for the coaches.

 

In other circumstances I might have gone back in one, but you had to stay in the compartment you were allocated.

 

We paid £50.00, so for 3 adults, two children and one under five I thought that was a good price. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by ChrisN

[Sasquatch]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

All former Col. Stephens carriages were somebody else's before they came to him! Looking at the patter of the doors, I detect lavatories and a brake, or at least luggage, end. A moment's further reflection reveals it to be the SECR birdcage brake in which @ChrisN and his party were travelling. Inspecting the Bluebell's stock list reveals that it is SECR 2nd/3rd lavatory composite brake of 1910 No. 1084, later SR 3363, as which it is currently presented. The leading flush-sided third is another ex-SECR vehicle, No. 1098 of 1922.

 

The Metropolitan carriages date from 1898.1900, 120 years ago they would have sagged less.

 

Apologies, I'm a compulsive carriage-spotter.

   Without taking risk of hijacking Chris's thread, I was wondering about the lower step board on 3363. Curious!

The Bluebell's stock page has an informative  history of this coach which also tells us it was acquired from The Kent and East Sussex Railway which being an ex-Colonel Stevens line that if I recall correctly being a light railway has lower than standard platform heights.

    Not wanting to get into any arguments of course but I find these sort of things rather interesting  and I'm probably barking up the wrong tree (as someone is bound to point out!)!!

 

Regards Shaun

 

PS.  Gresley stock is more my field.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Sasquatch
post script

[corneliuslundie]

The SECR kept second class for the boat trains (it was still available in BR days) but I don't think this would have been the stock used.

Very nice though.

The Colonel Stevens Society may have some information on changes to footboards.

Clad to see that a mention of the Cambrian managed to slip into the post!

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, Sasquatch said:

The Bluebell's stock page has an informative  history of this coach which also tells us it was acquired from The Kent and East Sussex Railway which being an ex-Colonel Stevens line that if I recall correctly being a light railway has lower than standard platform heights. 

 

My reading of the Bluebell's page on 3363 is that this carriage was rescued for preservation from BR departmental use. It was at the K&ESR in the preservation era for restoration but not much work was done there, the restoration being completed at Horsted Keynes. The carriage has therefore never seen service on the K&ESR, either in the Colonel Stephens or preservation periods. 

 

The position of the step-board at the level of the bottom of the solebar is far from unusual.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Compound2632
K&ESR not K&SER or K&SR!