Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Chris, keep it up.

 

If I were to draw up such a list for my projects it would be a case of "do not pass Go, do not collect £200, go straight to a cup of hemlock"

 

Surely that way madness lies?

 

James,

The theory runs that I can post this, this time next year and there will be something in the right hand side.  I have no put anything that I have done before this year under finished, so it seems that I have done nothing.  It does however flag up projects, like the wagons, that I had kicked into the long grass until I did wagons in general, which might be a way away.

 

Everything down to the G20, except the PO wagons, I have done something on, the ones below are on my 'soon' wish list.  I am trying to take my son's advice and finish something!

[ChrisN]

7 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I too thought all ends were black but that appears to be for a later period. “Great Western Way” quotes an article in The Railway Engineer in 1895 thus: “The bottom and waist panels of the Great Western carriages are painted brown, as also are the whole of the ends. From the waist upwards the panes are creamy white. All mouldings have a broad jet black line on the flat and gold leaf on the edges, and about one inch from the latter a thin chocolate line is run on the white panels.” Ends appear to have become black with the 1980 all brown livery and remained so for the Lake livery in 1912.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I think that the lining may well be missed off; must look at @Mikkel's blog again at what he has done.  I am thinking of the best way to make the window edges red though.  What fun.  (Makes you want to model early BR with unlined crimson coaches.  Arggh!  NO!  )

[richard i]

A long list of of half done projects, I know that feeling. That’s why I try now to be disciplined and focus on one project at a time. It does not mean I don’t have a list which is quite long of future builds.

richard 

[Northroader]

That’s a terribly short list of unfinished work, you really must start a lot more than that and leave it lying around.

On the matter of coach liveries, just going by memory, around the turn of the century, coach ends were brown with the mouldings picked out in black. However there wasn’t the yellow edging around the mouldings like the sides had. Some lines had the brake ends painted red, but the GWR wasn’t one of them.

 

edit: I must say gold, not yellow, looking at Jonathan’s post again.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Northroader

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

That’s a terribly short list of unfinished work, you really must start a lot more than that and leave it lying around.

On the matter of coach liveries, just going by memory, around the turn of the century, coach ends were brown with the mouldings picked out in black. However there wasn’t the yellow edging around the mouldings like the sides had. Some lines had the brake ends painted red, but the GWR wasn’t one of them.

 

edit: I must say gold, not yellow, looking at Jonathan’s post again.

 

Thank you.  Mouldings black, ends brown is doable. So much black, and so little to weather.

 

To rush to my own defence concerning not having enough unfinished projects, some of the pending projects are half started ones, and on that list I have not put the station building which is in a bag somewhere, neither have I mentioned that the baseboard has not progressed to having any scenery for, oh, 5 years?  I have a box of Shapeways prints for at least three locos, I have numerous figures that need finishing, although that might be in the 'To Do' list.  Not enough?  How about all my 009 stuff?  The Twll Du station building has its roof on but does not get on the list, and sometime I must finish painting Balin the Dwarf and his companions, as well as Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.

 

Is that list long enough to qualify me as a proper railway modeller?   (Oh, yeah.  All my locos and track need cleaning.)

 

Like @richard i I am going to be more focussed and finish stuff, honest.   (You wait, this time next year Rodney.)

[Northroader]

Now, that sounds much more promising. Keep it up.

[Mikkel]

3 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I think that the lining may well be missed off; must look at @Mikkel's blog again at what he has done.  I am thinking of the best way to make the window edges red though.  What fun.  (Makes you want to model early BR with unlined crimson coaches.  Arggh!  NO!  )

 

Chris, don't look too closely at mine because I cheat: I leave out the black and the lining.  My defence is that it's not very noticeable - but of course some people do notice, and ideally I'd like to go the whole way. 

 

[ChrisN]

11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Chris, don't look too closely at mine because I cheat: I leave out the black and the lining.  My defence is that it's not very noticeable - but of course some people do notice, and ideally I'd like to go the whole way. 

 

 

Mikkel,

I think I shall look very closely at what you have done, and copy it.  Whether I can get away with it on larger coaches is another matter.

[ChrisN]

Those of you with a long memory you may remember these

 

 

They are a pair of outside framed Parliamentary Thirds.  Another will join them as I want to do a Brake without the birdcage, and a ducket.  These are unbraked as they are in original 1860s condition, and stayed like that until they were scrapped, probably in the mid 1890s although I think some may have lasted into the beginning of the 20th century.

 

As they are 1860s I though it would be fun to fill them with 1860s people, and Andy Stadden has finally brought some out.  They are not the original mid Victorian set so may be a little up market for these Thirds, but hey, they should not be mid Victorian anyway.

 

Another project I hear you shout.  No, all my coaches will need passengers so once finished I will have a splurge on figure painting.  I wil not count the coaches done until they have fare paying passengers.

[NCB]

Excellent stuff. Did the Cambrian bother to put lights in them? I know they weren't keen on putting heating in coaches, until quite late.

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, NCB said:

Excellent stuff. Did the Cambrian bother to put lights in them? I know they weren't keen on putting heating in coaches, until quite late.

 

Nigel,

The pictures, there is one here, and at least one in Vol 1 Cambrian Railway Album show them with oil tops.  You probably know that the 'compartments' were only the seats and there were no walls between them.  I do not think they were converted to gas lights, and probably were never given brakes.  My guess is that they were phased out at the very latest at the end of 1895 when I believe the last timetabled mixed train that had unbraked coaches was ended.  (It is my assumption that is where they were used as the Cambrian had two trains with unbraked coaches in 1895 and there are two mixed trains along the Coast.  I could of course have misinterpreted the information.)  I suggested a later date as some early coaches lasted until the start of the 20th century, but no one recorded what they were, or if they did it has not come to light.

[ChrisN]

Having been on the Abertaw Flickr sight again I must show the photo below.  First an explanation.  @Mikkel in one of his blog entries, I think, not his thread, fell to discussing where horseboxes were placed in a train.  @Nearholmer stated in another place that when they had horses in they were put next to the engine as they had a smoother ride.  So that is the explanation of this photo.  

[Mikkel]

A wonderful photo. And not hard to replicate in model form, if a replacement loco is accepted.

 

I wonder how it came to be, i.e. what movements would have preceded this.

[corneliuslundie]

Two things re your very nice parliamentary thirds. First, are you sure the brake third didn't have  brakes? Certainly the Rhymney ones did when the other carriages had none. Seed the models posted early in my Sarn/Nantcwmdu thread based on a drawing in a magazine which definitely showed brakes.

Secondly, did you do them from a drawing or from photos?

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, corneliuslundie said:

are you sure the brake third didn't have  brakes? Certainly the Rhymney ones did when the other carriages had none.

 

That was, indeed, the whole point of a brake carriage. Even after the adoption of continuous brakes, the guard's brake compartment had a valve to allow him to apply the vacuum or air brake, as well as his hand brake standard. Before continuous brakes, there would be something like one brake vehicle for every three or four unbraked carriages, each having a brakesman on board, listening out for the driver whistling for brakes or even, with route knowledge, anticipating his order. A skilled job, if one was to avoid breaking a coupling. 

 

If that sounds like over-manning, consider the staff:passenger ratio on a stagecoach.

[ChrisN]

37 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Two things re your very nice parliamentary thirds. First, are you sure the brake third didn't have  brakes? Certainly the Rhymney ones did when the other carriages had none. Seed the models posted early in my Sarn/Nantcwmdu thread based on a drawing in a magazine which definitely showed brakes.

Secondly, did you do them from a drawing or from photos?

Jonathan

 

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That was, indeed, the whole point of a brake carriage. Even after the adoption of continuous brakes, the guard's brake compartment had a valve to allow him to apply the vacuum or air brake, as well as his hand brake standard. Before continuous brakes, there would be something like one brake vehicle for every three or four unbraked carriages, each having a brakesman on board, listening out for the driver whistling for brakes or even, with route knowledge, anticipating his order. A skilled job, if one was to avoid breaking a coupling. 

 

If that sounds like over-manning, consider the staff:passenger ratio on a stagecoach.

 

Yes, I should have said, continuous through braking.  The Brake coach, or should that be Break coach, as per 19th century, has been modelled with brakes.  I have no idea if they are correct.

 

 

The answer as to was it built from pictures or diagram is, a bit of both.  @Penlan sent me a part of a drawing which had sizes on it which gave me the coach length.  It is a lot shorter than I expected, 22' or so as to what I thought of 25'.  You probably know that @Furness Wagon has 0 gauge models of these, with some detail differences.  The chassis is I am afraid, a Ratio GWR one as I am not sure what springs I could use for the Cambrian.  Next time perhaps.

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

A wonderful photo. And not hard to replicate in model form, if a replacement loco is accepted.

 

I wonder how it came to be, i.e. what movements would have preceded this.

 

Mikkel,

The image is just outside Barmouth Station.  I think, but am not able to check as the National Library of Scotland site is not cooperating with me today, that there are no sidings in the direction that it is going, so it does not appear to be a shunting movement.  It is possible that it is on the way to Barmouth Junction.  Who knows?  

 

I do think that it is a brilliant picture.

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

................. Before continuous brakes, there would be something like one brake vehicle for every three or four unbraked carriages, each having a brakesman on board, listening out for the driver whistling for brakes or even, with route knowledge, anticipating his order. A skilled job, if one was to avoid breaking a coupling. .................

 

 

Accident reports can be a good source for discovering the make up of trains.  For example the report on the GWR accident at Shipton-on-Cherwell near Oxford in 1874 lists all the vehicles in the train as shown in my diagram below:

Out of 15 un-braked carriages there were just three 4-wheel brake vans, although this was an over-loaded train with extra carriages to cope with the Christmas-eve demand.  An extra 'Sir Daniel'-class engine had been  added to cope with the load.  Contributory causes of the accident were recorded as inadequate brake power and poor communications between the drivers and the guards. The primary cause was wheel failure on the leading carriage.

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

As Mike said, accident reports are a useful source of information. As this snippet from a report from 1919 of an incident at Streatham Common on the LBSCR:-

"The passenger train comprised 10 vehicles, including 8 eight-wheeled bogie carriages,1 six-wheeled brake van, and 1 four-wheeled horse box, in the order named, and was drawn by tank engine No. 248, type 0-4-2."

[NCB]

10 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Mikkel,

The image is just outside Barmouth Station.  I think, but am not able to check as the National Library of Scotland site is not cooperating with me today, that there are no sidings in the direction that it is going, so it does not appear to be a shunting movement.  It is possible that it is on the way to Barmouth Junction.  Who knows?  

 

I do think that it is a brilliant picture.

 

Trying to figure where in Barmouth it would be. Can't find a fit. That's quite a big chapel/church on the left.

 

Re horse-boxes, there's a well known pic of a Cambrian train entering Welshpool with a string of several horse boxes just behind the engine.

 

Nigel

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, NCB said:

 

Trying to figure where in Barmouth it would be. Can't find a fit. That's quite a big chapel/church on the left.

 

Re horse-boxes, there's a well known pic of a Cambrian train entering Welshpool with a string of several horse boxes just behind the engine.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

Had more time on my hands today than was good for me.  The tower you can see is on the Congregational Chapel, (English), and is opposite a road that is now not there any more.  The Chapel is now the Dragon Theatre but has had the top of its towers cut off.  Here is a photo from the other side of er, breakwater.

 

In this map the Chapel is right at the bottom, right centre and you will notice a small trailing siding which will only hold one or two wagons so is nothing to do with this movement.

 

There is also the panting/coloured picture just below Harlech with the horsebox just behind the engine.  I have never seen horseboxes anywhere else on the Cambrian.  The discussion arose as a diversion I think, at the end of one of @Mikkel's blog entries as to where they went and there are picture on other companies lines with the boxes at the end of the train.  As a railwayman said if they had horses in they would be behind the engine I will go with that.  Maybe the others were empty, but not being able to look inside means we cannot be absolutely certain.

 

I have also spotted for the first time that the bridge over the railway had two sets of steps on either side, one onto the platforms, the other outside so people could cross the railway when the gates were closed.  Where did they place their ticket inspectors?

Edited January 25, 2021 by ChrisN

[NCB]

Chris

Thanks, clears that up. Did wonder if the road name was related to the Cors-y-Gedol Hotel, obviously is.

That small siding is a loading bank, so it's just possible the horse box is being dropped off there, but in that case the train is running wrong line. Odd.

 

The Welshpool pic is on page 66 of Christiansen Portrait of a Welsh Railway Network. At least, he says it's Welshpool; the book does have a few errors. The caption includes  " Public timetables included a footnote that horseboxes and carriage trucks were only conveyed by stated trains between certain points".

 

Nigel

[Northroader]

The footbridge at Barmouth was really in effect two passageways side by side with a dividing fence between them.

[ChrisN]

13 hours ago, NCB said:

Chris

Thanks, clears that up. Did wonder if the road name was related to the Cors-y-Gedol Hotel, obviously is.

That small siding is a loading bank, so it's just possible the horse box is being dropped off there, but in that case the train is running wrong line. Odd.

 

The Welshpool pic is on page 66 of Christiansen Portrait of a Welsh Railway Network. At least, he says it's Welshpool; the book does have a few errors. The caption includes  " Public timetables included a footnote that horseboxes and carriage trucks were only conveyed by stated trains between certain points".

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

I have always thought the train was leaving Barmouth, but of course it is not.  Although there is a road either side of the church, Cors-y-Gedol is on the Barmouth Station side.  It does beg the question as to what was going on.  It would appear that the horsebox is being taken to that siding, but is it a shunting movement, if so why have the coaches attached?  If the box had arrived on the front of the train then the engine would have had to run round it to do this.  There are no passengers in the train so perhaps the coaches are being taken to the Up platform to form a train towards Barmouth Junction.  There is also only one member of staff on the footplate so perhaps the other is changing the point.  

 

If the date is correct, and often/sometimes on this site they are not, I am not sure what trains started from Barmouth.  In 1895 it was only the Dolgelley trains, and they were not formed with six wheel coaches as far as I know.  So I think it is rather a strange shunting movement.

 

The WTTs that I have also talk about what trains the horseboxes should go on, and also the empties, if I remember rightly, but annoyingly they do not say where the boxes should go.  Everyone knew that of course so it was not mentioned.

Edited January 26, 2021 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

The footbridge at Barmouth was really in effect two passageways side by side with a dividing fence between them.

 

Interesting, thank you.  The only picture I have seen of Barmouth footbridge that I have taken note of is this one.  This does not appear to have two lanes across the top but it does appear to be as wide.  Looking at it again today, on the top left hand side there could be a gate that leads to another set of steps.