Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Fortuitously, or not as you may see, there came up on EBay, two Slaters packs of GWR seats.  I looked on the Slaters web site but decided that I would buy them from EBay.  I did not check them properly as I now have two packs of '0' gauge GWR seats. 

 

Moral (I'm in a moralising mood): if buying a current item, always buy from the manufacturer or a reputable shop. That way you will get the correct product correctly described, almost certainly at the lowest price, and support the hobby rather than the sharks, too.

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

I very much like the idea in that photo, i.e. showing the people who built the coach. I count 28 souls to build one coach (unless it's just a publicity spin). How many does it take to build one today, I wonder?

 

On reflection, adding up all the global suppliers of each part and all the electronics etc - possibly more!

 

2 hours ago, Donw said:

 

I suspect evryone who worked in the coach shop turned out for the photo. Not all may have actuall worked on that one but they would be a team. One of our club members is a retired coachbuilder from Derby and would probably know the answers. When you talk about suppliers how far do you go. The workers who produced the steel, mined the iron ore, dug the coal for the steelworks, sawed log into planks, cut down the logs, planted the trees.  The list could be endless. 

At one point I wa quite interested in self sufficiency. But you do need to buy tools,materials,screws nails, even Henry Thoreau  had to buy some stuff. 

 

Chris I would be willing to pay you what they cost for the coach seats or I may find something 4 mil for a swap.

 

Don

 

Yes, it was probably everyone in the coach shop, but I think that they worked as a team, so probably all had a part in every coach.

 

Just some interesting points.  The lad in the front, third from the right, twelve, or just short?  Certainly younger than the lads at the other side that had no names.  

 

Different aprons.  If the men in the white aprons were chippys, what were the men, and lad, in the brown ones? Painters?

 

There is a man in a bowler, and a bow tie, is he the manager, foreman, and the second from the right is named as the brother-in-law of the General Manager.  I wonder what he did?

 

There are others in shirt sleeves, humpers and carriers?

 

Also on the back row there are some funny type of hats.  If they are the chippys, did these keep the sawdust out of their hair?

 

The man with the pole.  Is that just a piece of beading or a measuring stick?

 

The number on the window is a backwards 29.  Is that the coach number?  If so that coach lasted until 1904.

 

Fat Charlie.  One, he is not very fat, and two, you would never get away with even calling him that nowadays let alone putting it on an official photo.

 

This is, as far as I know, the only picture of one of these coaches, but i would be very grateful if someone could prove me wrong.

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Moral (I'm in a moralising mood): if buying a current item, always buy from the manufacturer or a reputable shop. That way you will get the correct product correctly described, almost certainly at the lowest price, and support the hobby rather than the sharks, too.

 

Stephen,

The item was correctly described but I did not read that part of it.  What sunk me was that they were offering free postage so it was cheaper than Slaters.  The actual price was in fact the same as the Slaters '0' gauge seats.  I was just having a bad moment.

 

(There are lots of POW sides wagons on sale, at a snip, they start at one pound more than you can get them from POW sides.  Normally i have my wits about me but they must have gone off for a cup of tea at the time.)

 

[Donw]

Those wearing some kind of head covering in the photo you wonder what it was for, because sawdust, paint, sanding dust and anything thing else would surely lodge in beards and moustaches too. Perhaps it was more to do with keeping hair out of the top and varnish coats.

 

As for Fat Charlie he may well have been fatter in earlier days or just simply fatter than the other Charlie in the gang. Even when I started work it was considered more important to identify each member of the gang.  So if the forman shouted pull harder Don the right chap responded. nicknames once given  tended to stick. If anyone had complained about being called Mad Harry, Lazy Tom, etc. they would probably been dismissed. Besides in those days you just accepted it. The best one I heard was someone known as Tom. He would have liked to be called by his name Bill but there was another Bill in the team. However the other Bill was actually Fred  his second name had been William but there was a Fred in the team already so they used BIll. by the time  Tom/Bill joined Fred had retired but they were all used to calling the second Fred Bill and to change would have caused problems.

 

Don

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Donw said:

Those wearing some kind of head covering in the photo you wonder what it was for

 

Because everyone wore a hat then, unless indoors, in church, or when the boss or a funeral cortege passed by. Even then, they had a hat to hand, so to speak. Going bare-headed is a fashion of our own degenerate times. Also, it was cold.

[Northroader]

Probably the workforce in the coach building shop, grouped around the latest sample of their output. Theres a lot with square hats, they’re chippies, don’t know why they had that for headgear, but there tiz. Only here they’d be “coach builders”, skilled craftsmen who’d do the bulk of the assembly. There might be a couple acting to work any power machinery, bandsaws, routers, and so on, forming wood sections to be fitted on the coach. Then they'd have mates, assisting with holding up, fetching and carrying, and the little squirt could be an apprentice, they started young back then. There’d be some semi skilled “lifters” who would jack the coach up, roll wheelsets under, and assemble springs and axleboxes. I’d be looking for some semi skilled brakefitters, but with a coach that old, how much work would there be for them? Again you’d expect skilled “trimmers” doing the upholstery, but there ain’t much of that in a third. A glazier, perhaps? With a small place, the paint shop gang are there as well? You’d expect a few labourers, mainly engaged in keeping the shop tidy, and probably a stores keeper.  Then there’s a works manager, a foreman or two, a couple of piecework inspectors, timeclerk, Works cat is missing, and possibly the night watchman, who you’d need with all that wood around to guard against the fire risk. The shop is Oswestry, but I see one of the guys is from Aberystwyth, outdoor foreman visiting?

p.s. I was forgetting you’d need a blacksmith and mate in there as well.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Northroader

[ChrisN]

29 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Probably the workforce in the coach building shop, grouped around the latest sample of their output. Theres a lot with square hats, they’re chippies, don’t know why they had that for headgear, but there tiz. Only here they’d be “coach builders”, skilled craftsmen who’d do the bulk of the assembly. There might be a couple acting to work any power machinery, bandsaws, routers, and so on, forming wood sections to be fitted on the coach. Then they'd have mates, assisting with holding up, fetching and carrying, and the little squirt could be an apprentice, they started young back then. There’d be some semi skilled “lifters” who would jack the coach up, roll wheelsets under, and assemble springs and axleboxes. I’d be looking for some semi skilled brakefitters, but with a coach that old, how much work would there be for them? Again you’d expect skilled “trimmers” doing the upholstery, but there ain’t much of that in a third. A glazier, perhaps? With a small place, the paint shop gang are there as well? You’d expect a few labourers, mainly engaged in keeping the shop tidy, and probably a stores keeper.  Then there’s a works manager, a foreman or two, a couple of piecework inspectors, timeclerk, Works cat is missing, and possibly the night watchman, who you’d need with all that wood around to guard against the fire risk. The shop is Oswestry, but I see one of the guys is from Aberystwyth, outdoor foreman visiting?

p.s. I was forgetting you’d need a blacksmith and mate in there as well.

 

At least I was right about the ones with the white aprons being chippys, but it appears that all the chippys are not wearing aprons.  The dark aprons appear glossy, leather?  Would that make them working with machines or blacksmiths?  The young lad obviously has a job for life if he wants it.

 

The 'unknowns', have they just wandered in from somewhere else for the photo or did the photographer forget to get their names?  Did someone else give him the names, or did on being asked his name Fat Charlie said, "Fat Charlie"?

 

So much information, yet not enough.

 

And before anyone asks, no, I am not going to do a diorama of it, even though I think it is the best of this type of picture that I have seen.

[Compound2632]

My impression is that the names were put to the faces by some old hand many years after the event, hence the two identified as "living". Not all first names are recalled and as for "Fat Charlie", well, everyone knew him as "Fat Charlie" and I'm blowed if I can remember his proper name...

Edited March 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Timber]

Hello -   I am making some Cambrian Coaches in S Scale.  I need some help with the brake arangements.  The model is a 1st class from the Tanat Valley light railway.

 

I am struggling to understand the brake arrangements.  I have a detailed drawing - but still not clear - would anyone who has made a model have an underside picture of how the brakes actually connected together?....this prototype or something similar would help,

Edited March 10, 2021 by Timber

[Nick Holliday]

There's a drawing in Mike Lloyd's book on the Tanat Valley that clearly shows the arrangement as per your drawing, although mirrored. (Page 88).  There is also this thread which may give a 3D perspective - 62C Models NBR 6 wheeled luggage composite - although the braking is Westinghouse, the principles of the brake rodding are similar.

[ChrisN]

On 10/03/2021 at 13:47, Timber said:

Hello -   I am making some Cambrian Coaches in S Scale.  I need some help with the brake arangements.  The model is a 1st class from the Tanat Valley light railway.

 

I am struggling to understand the brake arrangements.  I have a detailed drawing - but still not clear - would anyone who has made a model have an underside picture of how the brakes actually connected together?....this prototype or something similar would help,

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

 

The wheel is between the two brakes.  As the black rod is pulled the brakes are pulled onto the wheel.

 

 

 

This is the view from the top, (or bottom.  There will be a rod or bar or something sticking out for the connectors to fix to, far enough away so as not to foul the wheels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is how I did it for four wheels on a brake coach.  The rods from the centre in your case will go to the top black rod to pull the brakes together.  Also yours will somehow be conected to the vacuum cylinder.

 

You obviously need to have all the rodding so as to not foul the wheels.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by ChrisN

[Timber]

perfect - sorry to jump into your blog!

[Timber]

sorry one more request - do you have a photo with the brakes on both sides of the wheel?

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Timber said:

perfect - sorry to jump into your blog!

 

1 hour ago, Timber said:

sorry one more request - do you have a photo with the brakes on both sides of the wheel?

 

Not a problem as others might need to know the same thing.

 

Sorry no.  I have only put brakes on this one vehicle with the rodding.  I have chickened out of any more complicated rodding.  Having said that, give me a few days and one just might appear.

 

Do you have a thread for your builds/layout?

Edited March 10, 2021 by ChrisN

[MikeOxon]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Chris,  I feel your drawing is not showing any 'fixed point'. A vital  addition to make is that the individual brake shoes are ech suspended on a pivoted link from the sole-bar.  I have added rods in your colour code to the drawing in @Timber's post above to illustrate this point:

 

(all the red dots are pivots.)

 

The GWR used a similar arrangement at one time with the complication that the 'green rod' operated in the horizontal plane and the 'blue rod' ran outside the wheels.  I puzzled over the working of this gear for some time, as described in my post at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/19076-broad-gauge-mail-coach-part-5/

 

Mike

 

[ChrisN]

2 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

 

Chris,  I feel your drawing is not showing any 'fixed point'. A vital  addition to make is that the individual brake shoes are ech suspended on a pivoted link from the sole-bar.  I have added rods in your colour code to the drawing in @Timber's post above to illustrate this point:

 

(all the red dots are pivots.)

 

The GWR used a similar arrangement at one time with the complication that the 'green rod' operated in the horizontal plane and the 'blue rod' ran outside the wheels.  I puzzled over the working of this gear for some time, as described in my post at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/19076-broad-gauge-mail-coach-part-5/

 

Mike

 

 

Mike,

Yes you are correct.  I had left those out for ease of drawing.  I did not know that the GWR rods were outside the wheels; that would explain what the rods outside the wheels are.  Whether they get modelled on my coaches is yet to be seen, but do not hold your breath.

[corneliuslundie]

Very timely as I have been puzzling over the instructions and diagrams of brakes for a GWR Diagram S6 coach in the IKB Models instructions.

Jonathan

[Simond]

This may help, I hope.  The levers on the centre line, outside the outer axles have to be supported.  On this (Dean Churchward) the levers are pivoted in a trunnion fixed to the chassis, about one third of the way up the lever so a pull on the lower end of the lever pulls the clasp brakes onto the wheel, one pull from the top of the lever, the other pulled from about two thirds of the lever length.

 

on your drawing, the pivot is at the joint of the red link and green lever, and it is supported by a bracket shown in dashed lines, attached to the chassis.  This bracket would be “springy” to allow for uneven wear between the front and rear blocks.

 

 

[Simond]

The GW did have brakes linked outside the wheels, Dean design,  but as you can see, they’re different.

 

 

[ChrisN]

18 minutes ago, Simond said:

This may help, I hope.  The levers on the centre line, outside the outer axles have to be supported.  On this (Dean Churchward) the levers are pivoted in a trunnion fixed to the chassis, about one third of the way up the lever so a pull on the lower end of the lever pulls the clasp brakes onto the wheel, one pull from the top of the lever, the other pulled from about two thirds of the lever length.

 

on your drawing, the pivot is at the joint of the red link and green lever, and it is supported by a bracket shown in dashed lines, attached to the chassis.  This bracket would be “springy” to allow for uneven wear between the front and rear blocks.

 

 

 

This image has been posted before but it bears repeating.  It is a work of beauty.

[Simond]

Thanks, that’s very kind.  It was a good kit which makes a decent result somewhat easier to obtain.

 

(I still cheated!)

 

cheers

Simon

[NCB]

On 10/03/2021 at 13:47, Timber said:

Hello -   I am making some Cambrian Coaches in S Scale.  I need some help with the brake arangements.  The model is a 1st class from the Tanat Valley light railway.

 

I am struggling to understand the brake arrangements.  I have a detailed drawing - but still not clear - would anyone who has made a model have an underside picture of how the brakes actually connected together?....this prototype or something similar would help,

 

A timely question; I too have to get my head around Cambrian coach brakes.

 

One thing; are you sure your coach isn't a composite rather than a first?  The unequal spacing between the compartments does, to my eyes, suggest the former.

 

Nigel

[Timber]

composite sir,  my mistake

[ChrisN]

I have been putting off painting my coaches, mainly as I will have to do it upstairs in the railway room, standing up. (There is no room to sit.)  It is also a bit anti-social, so I have been doing other things.  Once it gets warm and sunny and the back door is opened then I will not get complaints about the smell, and I can do it downstairs.

 

I had done some marking with a felt tip, and it occurred to me that the colour was as close as you could want, well to a blind man on a foggy day, to Indian Red.  My first job with the GWR coaches is to paint the bolections in Indian Red.  (1880 -1905 livery.)  I looked on the GWR.org site and although it seems clear I was unable to magnify the images.  I wanted to do this to check that I had got the areas I needed to paint correct.

 

So, I set to work with my pen.  It is a fat nib, but comes to a point so is not too bad.  After a few windows I think it is getting a little bit worse for wear so will not be going back with the others.

 

So, this is what I have done.

 

 

 

I realise that the raised panelling around the bolections needs to be brown, but they will be overpainted.  If I remember correctly, the window frame on the door is cream, with a brown surround.  There will be a certain amount of over painting, although I am not sure how well cream covers chocolate.  Please let me know if I am on the rights tracks, thank you.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by ChrisN

[Nick Gough]

Chris

 

The raised mouldings, around the windows, and elsewhere should be black for your time period.

 

Have a look at the photos on the Didcot website for clerestorey 1941:

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/142/no-1941-dean-third#gallery-3

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/142/no-1941-dean-third#gallery-5