Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

That's an interesting question. The LNWR built some bogie Family saloons which had internal gangways, but still had separate areas for the servants, but they could now get to the 'toffs' area when required. I wonder if the earlier ones had solid partitions between each class?

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

The ones I have seen if they are not single class then there were connections between the classes, even if they way was through a toilet!

[ChrisN]

Although my modelling time is limited at the moment I have managed to finish the three 6T vans, well apart from painting and transfers.  This I will leave until I can get my paints down.  I was, and will post pictures but found that I have only taken part of the build.

 

 However:-

 

 

Can you see what it is yet?  No?  Well it is an MSLR brake composite which Andy G has kindly cut for me.  You will notice that there are two windows still to cut out, (I did not until I processed the picture).  You may also notice that the inner sheets for holding the glazing are on the wrong side.  I have started to laminate, so now the top two laminations on either side are done.  I have also started to ass 10 thou rodding to the last coach to form the beading.  So far I have done one door, only the rest of the side, the other side and three more coaches to go.  I will have more MSLR coaches soon than a GC modeller.

 

The drawing was not particularly good as I would have expected that the second and third class compartments would have been of different widths but the drawing shows them the same width.  It is possible that this coach did have the same widths but I do not know enough about the MSLR to be sure.  I was also concerned that I had not made them tall enough but they are the same height and width as Bedders', of this parish, 3D print of a MSLR 4 wheeler.  See, a whole train.

 

I have two more cut but more of them later, when I start laminating.

 

I have now started to draw for the Silhouette cutter two Cambrian4 wheel coaches.  (Shock horror, home territory coaches!)  One is a First Class Saloon.  There were two of these with different interiors and numbered 9 and 11.  The drawing has a plain end but there are at least two pictures of them and they have windowed ends.  There is enough information to make a drawing from them. 

 

The second is a Third Class saloon.  The drawing shows plain ends and I cannot find a picture of it to prove otherwise.  It is highly likely that there is not one but if anyone knows of one please let me know.  (I have all the books of the Main and Coast line but none of the branches, or Rails over Talerddig which I have been meaning to obtain.)

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Edwardian]

Excellent stuff!

 

I am deeply envious of all those intricately cut components.

 

Look forward to progress.

[ChrisN]

Excellent stuff!

 

I am deeply envious of all those intricately cut components.

 

Look forward to progress.

 

The First Class saloons I am drawing do have toilets, so if I send you the file when it is done you may well be able to ask someone to cut it for you.  I also have a Cheshire Lines Committee saloon coach that is on the to do list, but not sure how far down, and that might be useful too.

Edited February 9, 2018 by ChrisN

[Edwardian]

The First Class saloons I am drawing do have toilets, so if I send you the file when it is done you may well be able to ask someone to cut it for you.  I also have a Cheshire Lines Committee saloon coach that is on the to do list, but not sure how far down, and that might be useful too.

 

That is fantastic, thank you.  I have been considering MSLR prototypes for CA, as it happens, because the coaches have that nice rounded tip panelling that both the GER and, IIRC, the Great Yarmouth & Stalham used, 

 

They would make ideal freelance coaches for the West Norfolk, if you've no objection, that is.

[Donw]

I have somewhere a set of cut out parts for a Cambrian Saloon in 7mm which someone was selling at Reading (IIRC)  I seem to remember the drawing being in MRN I ought to have it somewhere.

Don

[ChrisN]

That is fantastic, thank you.  I have been considering MSLR prototypes for CA, as it happens, because the coaches have that nice rounded tip panelling that both the GER and, IIRC, the Great Yarmouth & Stalham used, 

 

They would make ideal freelance coaches for the West Norfolk, if you've no objection, that is.

 

I have no objection at all.  I have not put them on my thread for two reasons, 1) I think at least the first one was fiddled with before it was cut, and 2) I am not sure that they are 100% accurate.  I thought the height might be an inch rt two out, and I mentioned the problems with the compartment widths.  Now it is likely that neither of these is wrong.  To me this is not an issue as they will be through carriages and they are different; I doubt that they would be a problem to you either.

 

I will check if the files were fiddled with adjusted before cutting and then I will put them up.

[ChrisN]

Well I have had some time, not a lot, so what is here is all I have done since the last post except for a bit tonight.  Actually not quite true.  A week or so ago my grandchildren wanted to play on the railway for the first time in ages.  My grand daughter said hers was a test train.  No idea why except that nothing had run for ages.  So, as it is her, she had a Cambrian third, a Cambrian brake third and a Cambrian first pulled by a 14xx.  Well, you cannot have everything.  As it reached the point at the end of the fiddleyard it derailed.  Tried it several times, same result.  I have not had this problem before but it has always been a bit iffy.  So, next day, boiling water applied with a paint brush until the PVA was white.  Eased the curve into the curved point, held fast with drawing pins and, hey presto, no problem.  I told my grand daughter that I was most pleased with her test train and how I fixed the problem.  Obviously needs more testing.

 

So here goes

 

 

 

This may not look much but the four laminations of one side have been put together in pairs, and this has been done for both sides.  This time I remembered when putting the outmost layer on the next one in to put the limonene on the bottom of the outside one, as it has more gaps in it.  Putting it on the second one exposes the solvent in the panels which if you look carefully you can see here:-

 

 

This is not really to show you my fingerprints in glue but the fact that I have actually gone mad.  Yes I am adding beading in the groves of the panels.  The beading is 10 thou rod.  Hold the rod, touch with a brush dipped in Limonene and wiped off, try and keep it there and then with a scalpel hold it down, when not moving, ish, cut the other end at or near the line depending on which bit you are doing.  Then add solvent the cut end and hold down.  I usually start with a vertical and cut to just past the line, then the three horizontals and cut just short of the line, then the last vertical cut to just below the horizontal.  Easy peasy.  Except I have not been doing it through the magnifying glass as that is quite difficult to get low enough so it is relying on my eyes and glasses.  So when a 'floater' drifts across my good eye all becomes blurred.  Normally this is not a problem as you can wait until it goes.  Not in this case as solvent waits for no man.  Cambrian coaches do not have beading, neither I think do GWR or LNWR.

 

Sorry, I am rambling.  Here are three coaches

 

 

 

The top is the Brake Composite, the middle is the Lavatory composite and the bottom is Bedders 3D 4 wheel tri-composite.  Notice they are all different lengths.  I love pre-grouping.

 

I am putting floors in the 4 wheeler

 

 

 

The floors are 10 thou which does not sound very thick but any thicker and the seats would be too high.  I do not think it will be a problem as they will be braced by the seats and below by L strip for the footboard.  I am waiting until the GC springs from Dart Castings are available to finish this.

 

Finally a thought.  On Castle Aching, I think, they were talking about 6 wheelers and someone said what you needed to do was to take a ruler and for the length of your coach see what the sideways movement of the middle wheel will be.  Well, I did better than that, I took the coach side itself and, er, well, the displacement was, to use an engineering term, a lot.  I doubt that any form of chassis which is hemmed in by solebars and foot boards will be able to make it round my corners so it looks like I will be filling down the centre wheels flange.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited March 11, 2023 by ChrisN

[uax6]

Chris,

For adding the beading, could you just put a little limonene in the score and then put the rod over the top? I've found that the reaction with limonene isn't instant, the solvent taking a couple of seconds or so to get some bite. I often apply it to plasticard and then wait a couple of second to bring two bits together. Obviously this will depend on how the rod reacts, but it might stop fingerprints...

 

Looks like you might need a cheap clammy chassis then. It might be worth trying a fixed axle one end, and then the other two in a bogie (solder a bar across two w-iron etches with a hole in the centre of the bar, which will allow the bogie to pivot.... (and space the solebars out a bit further than scale!)

 

Andy G

[Northroader]

If you start losing the centre flanges, you’ll probably need to raise the wheelset ever so slightly as well, so it doesn’t touch the rail. Otherwise with tight curving track it won’t take much of an irregularity for the face of the wheel to drop behind the rail and jam. The panelled coaches are looking good. Careful with granddaughters, mine came a fortnight ago, and I’m still trying to trace a fault on a diesel caused by some erratic driving, still, when she’s looking at you and laughing like a drain, what do you do?

[ChrisN]

Chris,

For adding the beading, could you just put a little limonene in the score and then put the rod over the top? I've found that the reaction with limonene isn't instant, the solvent taking a couple of seconds or so to get some bite. I often apply it to plasticard and then wait a couple of second to bring two bits together. Obviously this will depend on how the rod reacts, but it might stop fingerprints...

 

Looks like you might need a cheap clammy chassis then. It might be worth trying a fixed axle one end, and then the other two in a bogie (solder a bar across two w-iron etches with a hole in the centre of the bar, which will allow the bogie to pivot.... (and space the solebars out a bit further than scale!)

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

Fortunately I have managed not to get fingerprints on the sides this time, but it sounds like it is worth a try.  You can move the beading for a minute or two which can be quite useful although you can find you have moved it out of position without realising it.

 

I probably need to have a try at it.  I was not going to bother until I saw Northroader's comment about the wheels needing to be higher.  I assume the bogie will give you a fraction more movement allowance that straight sideways movement.  I shall need to look at the whole thing as although solebars are there you also have the springs and axle boxes.

[corneliuslundie]

On grandchildren, my son posted a photo of my grandson doing some soldering today - he is not yet in his teens. Not sure what it was. It might have been to be a sound unit to go in a brake van! Don't ask why.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

If you start losing the centre flanges, you’ll probably need to raise the wheelset ever so slightly as well, so it doesn’t touch the rail. Otherwise with tight curving track it won’t take much of an irregularity for the face of the wheel to drop behind the rail and jam. The panelled coaches are looking good. Careful with granddaughters, mine came a fortnight ago, and I’m still trying to trace a fault on a diesel caused by some erratic driving, still, when she’s looking at you and laughing like a drain, what do you do?

 

I was not aware of that so that is helpful.  Back to sorting out six wheels going round corners first then.

 

This grand daughter is particularly careful so I think we should be fine.  I had not intended the coaches to be used by them but as they had previously asked to see what Grand dad had made they knew all about them.  The other train that my grandson had was made up of a Hornby GWR 4 Wheeler, a Bachmann Thomas 6 wheeler and Annie, or is it Clarabel?  Not much difference really.

[NCB]

Chris

 

If you're using 16.5mm track then there ought to be plenty of room for sideplay for the wheels, so long as you have an arrangement which allows side-play. What I mean is this. If your axles run in the actual axleboxes then you will have virtually no sideplay (unless the axleboxes and springs themselves move, which complicates things), and a 6 wheeler will find any curve a difficulty. But if your axles run in bearings inside the wheels, and you have no axle projecting beyond the wheels, then you can get a fair amount of side-play, depending on the spacing between the bearings.

 

However, a better arrangement would either be a Cleminson truck, or the bogie in one half suggested above. But in either case you need bearings on the inside to get room for wheels to move a useful distance. Might be worth while dropping Worsley Works an email asking if he has a Cleminson truck kit  available in 4mm. I've seen a pic of an etch of one somewhere, and I think it was Worsley. It wouldn't be too difficult to knock one up from scratch, once one has understood the principals. There's a good article on building a Brassmaster's Cleminson here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82047-traeth-mawr-building-coaches/page-122

The thing I don't like about that kit is that the outer wheels use outside bearings, so the springs and W irons move, whereas if they all had inside bearings like the middle axle then, in my view, it would be much simpler, and also there's more side-play possible on the wheels. That article also has some interesting alternative ideas.

Edited February 18, 2018 by NCB

[MikeOxon]

I've tried the Cleminson approach on my own 6-wheelers.  I also made the solebars from thin plasticard, fixed only at the ends, so that the bars could bow outwards easily, if the axleboxes pushed on them in the centre. Mine go round corners pretty well

[ChrisN]

Chris

 

If you're using 16.5mm track then there ought to be plenty of room for sideplay for the wheels, so long as you have an arrangement which allows side-play. What I mean is this. If your axles run in the actual axleboxes then you will have virtually no sideplay (unless the axleboxes and springs themselves move, which complicates things), and a 6 wheeler will find any curve a difficulty. But if your axles run in bearings inside the wheels, and you have no axle projecting beyond the wheels, then you can get a fair amount of side-play, depending on the spacing between the bearings.

 

However, a better arrangement would either be a Cleminson truck, or the bogie in one half suggested above. But in either case you need bearings on the inside to get room for wheels to move a useful distance. Might be worth while dropping Worsley Works an email asking if he has a Cleminson truck kit  available in 4mm. I've seen a pic of an etch of one somewhere, and I think it was Worsley. It wouldn't be too difficult to knock one up from scratch, once one has understood the principals. There's a good article on building a Brassmaster's Cleminson here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82047-traeth-mawr-building-coaches/page-122

The thing I don't like about that kit is that the outer wheels use outside bearings, so the springs and W irons move, whereas if they all had inside bearings like the middle axle then, in my view, it would be much simpler, and also there's more side-play possible on the wheels. That article also has some interesting alternative ideas.

 

Nigel,

Thank you.  MJT do a six wheel chassis that has the centre axle held in the middle but the end two are fixed.  It has a double wire that runs between all three axles.  What I shall have to do is experiment with something like that.  Firstly with them fixed but using a screw and nut, (I have some already bought before I thought of throwing the towel in), then with the end ones able to rotate, and finally with a full Cleminson.  I think the trick is having nothing outside the wheels so the axle will get filled back.  I am sure now it is possible but I am not sure the results will be pretty.

 

PS.  I am afraid the link is to this page.

Edited February 19, 2018 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

I've tried the Cleminson approach on my own 6-wheelers.  I also made the solebars from thin plasticard, fixed only at the ends, so that the bars could bow outwards easily, if the axleboxes pushed on them in the centre. Mine go round corners pretty well

 

Mike,

It is not as if I have not read that post or even rated it!  Forgotten it?  Yep!  Thank you for the reminder. 

[ChrisN]

On grandchildren, my son posted a photo of my grandson doing some soldering today - he is not yet in his teens. Not sure what it was. It might have been to be a sound unit to go in a brake van! Don't ask why.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Sorry, I missed your post.  I think my grandson will do that sort of thing as he takes after his other grand dad who used to be a woodwork and metal work teacher.  I am sure there are lots of reasons to have a sound unit in a guards van.  One is, you need a whistle to start the train.

[NCB]

Nigel,

Thank you.  MJT do a six wheel chassis that has the centre axle held in the middle but the end two are fixed.  It has a double wire that runs between all three axles.  What I shall have to do is experiment with something like that.  Firstly with them fixed but using a screw and nut, (I have some already bought before I thought of throwing the towel in), then with the end ones able to rotate, and finally with a full Cleminson.  I think the trick is having nothing outside the wheels so the axle will get filled back.  I am sure now it is possible but I am not sure the results will be pretty.

 

PS.  I am afraid the link is to this page.

 

Whoops! Here's the correct link:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112237-6-wheel-chassis-for-gnr-coaches-oo/?hl=cleminson

 

Think you're on the right track. With the end ones able to rotate those wheels will have a healthier angle to the track, and it then depends on whether the central wheelset movement is sufficient for your curves.  I will be watching with interest; the Mike Lloyd drawings of the Cambrian 6 wheelers are tempting :-)

 

Nigel

[uax6]

Looking back at Mikes thread, I'd be tempted to use the Comet version, but fitted as in the last illustrated example. I've used the comet ones, but mounted them as intended, and the centre axle is a tad restrained, but with the last method it should be a lot more flexible, and with a tad of lead should be fine...

 

Andy G

 

Edit: One issue I've had is that the rocking of the axleguards is restricted by the springs and axleboxes, this needs a bit more investigation, which might result in the tops of the axleboxes getting filed down a tad...

Edited February 20, 2018 by uax6

[ChrisN]

Whoops! Here's the correct link:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112237-6-wheel-chassis-for-gnr-coaches-oo/?hl=cleminson

 

Think you're on the right track. With the end ones able to rotate those wheels will have a healthier angle to the track, and it then depends on whether the central wheelset movement is sufficient for your curves.  I will be watching with interest; the Mike Lloyd drawings of the Cambrian 6 wheelers are tempting :-)

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

I think that the curves on your layout will not be as sharp as mine.  As the main, 'official', reason for the layout was for something the grandchildren could play on it had to be a roundy-roundy. As Cambrian stations were/are long and thin this also affected it, so even if I fail it does not mean that you will not succeed.  I intend going through as many Cambrian coaches that were built pre 1895 and make Silhouette files for them.  If door widths and window widths are fairly standard then progress might speed up but there will be files available, eventually.

[ChrisN]

Looking back at Mikes thread, I'd be tempted to use the Comet version, but fitted as in the last illustrated example. I've used the comet ones, but mounted them as intended, and the centre axle is a tad restrained, but with the last method it should be a lot more flexible, and with a tad of lead should be fine...

 

Andy G

 

Edit: One issue I've had is that the rocking of the axleguards is restricted by the springs and axleboxes, this needs a bit more investigation, which might result in the tops of the axleboxes getting filed down a tad...

 

Andy,

I think I will start with the MJT version and see how I go from there.  I have three Brassmasters Cleminsons waiting to be used although Quarryscapes, of this parish, says they are the wrong wheel spacing for the Cambrian but I have other 6 wheelers to build.  I will read through the thread and see what Mike says.

[NCB]

Nigel,

I think that the curves on your layout will not be as sharp as mine.  As the main, 'official', reason for the layout was for something the grandchildren could play on it had to be a roundy-roundy. As Cambrian stations were/are long and thin this also affected it, so even if I fail it does not mean that you will not succeed.  I intend going through as many Cambrian coaches that were built pre 1895 and make Silhouette files for them.  If door widths and window widths are fairly standard then progress might speed up but there will be files available, eventually.

 

Chris

 

Not sure if I've posted this before, but this was a stab some 30 years ago at producing Cambrian style 6 wheelers from Ratio GWR four wheelers in OO.

 

 

Pretty crude, but it worked. The end axles are pivoted, and the middle free to move from side to side. The lot mounted on a sub-chassis consisting of a hefty brass bar. Overall it's quite heavy so stays on the track pretty well.

 

The rigid 6 wheel chasses I'd tried up to this point would hardly go around anything. This one was an eye-opener; it would go around a 12" curve. It all depends on how much movement the central axle has. 

 

Nigel

Edited February 20, 2018 by NCB

[ChrisN]

Chris

 

Not sure if I've posted this before, but this was a stab some 30 years ago at producing Cambrian style 6 wheelers from Ratio GWR four wheelers in OO.

 

gH_0022.jpg

 

Pretty crude, but it worked. The end axles are pivoted, and the middle free to move from side to side. The lot mounted on a sub-chassis consisting of a hefty brass bar. Overall it's quite heavy so stays on the track pretty well.

 

The rigid 6 wheel chasses I'd tried up to this point would hardly go around anything. This one was an eye-opener; it would go around a 12" curve. It all depends on how much movement the central axle has. 

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

Thank you.  I think I have had enough encouragement that I will do the experiments sooner rather than later.  I have the MJT W irons to start with so I shall see how it works.

[ChrisN]

I have been diligently experimenting with 6 wheel chassis and I shall post when I get the photos uploaded and have time to post.  This however is not to do with that.  As is obvious I have four Silhouette files of MSLR coaches.  A Lavatory Composite, a brake composite, a 5 compartment third and a Gas Compartment Third, (whatever that is), all six wheelers.  I have had a couple of requests for these files and have gladly sent what was asked for.  I had thought of putting them on this thread, but I would like to know who has them, just out of interest really.  If you would like any please PM me.  The files have no cutting information in them.

 

Disclaimer:  They are not the best files in the world but I think they are ok, but I have yet to get further than laminating the sides of two of them.  I would not mind doing some more MSLR ones, and I have started a Cheshire Lines Committee Saloon coach, but I really must get on with some Cambrian Coaches, (and, keep it under your hat, a GWR Saloon).

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.