Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[MikeOxon]

Hi Chris,  I've not been following your thread recently (I still can't find my way around the 'new' RMWeb as well as I used to do).  There's lots of very useful stuff about GWR coach dimensions and details here, which I must take on board as I delve further into 3D printing.

 

As you know, I've done quite a lot of Silhouette coach sides, often using printed card to show the details.  I think that, in 4mm scale, a lot of fine detail is better omitted or just suggested on the art-work printing.  Otherwise, it usually becomes either over-scale or invisible at normal viewing distance.  Perhaps I'm just lazy but I prefer to err on the side of too little, rather than over-doing it.

 

Perhaps Mr Price should be gently reminded that there's more to a railway than just one station.

[ChrisN]

6 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

Hi Chris,  I've not been following your thread recently (I still can't find my way around the 'new' RMWeb as well as I used to do).  There's lots of very useful stuff about GWR coach dimensions and details here, which I must take on board as I delve further into 3D printing.

 

As you know, I've done quite a lot of Silhouette coach sides, often using printed card to show the details.  I think that, in 4mm scale, a lot of fine detail is better omitted or just suggested on the art-work printing.  Otherwise, it usually becomes either over-scale or invisible at normal viewing distance.  Perhaps I'm just lazy but I prefer to err on the side of too little, rather than over-doing it.

 

Perhaps Mr Price should be gently reminded that there's more to a railway than just one station.

 

Mike,

Thank you..  I still limit myself to what I read on RMWeb as otherwise I get nothing done, modelling that is.  One good thing about the new format is that I get told when you have posted a blog, probably because I 'follow' you, and that never happened on the old format even though I had asked for notifications.

 

I think you are right about detail.  I will try with raised bolections and see how I get on.  Rain strips, hmm.  I will post on this more later, but just to mention it here.  Penrhos has sent me some dimensions of the different types of coach, so rather than going to bed last night I checked them against my drawing.  Some were spot on, but the inner windows were a bit small.  I decided not to enlarge them.  The overall size of the windows is correct, and to have each component to the exact size would mean that when layered you would not see them.  Having done this before it is difficult to get everything exact as you line them up, and my experience has been with 25ft six wheelers so a longer side may be even worse.  I also have to be careful how small a piece is left when it has been cut as it may not cut properly and the panel layer could be quite flimsy.  I think that an impression is what we need, a scale 2" in some cases may not be noticed.

 

Now do not forget that Mr Price is the Station Master.  I am sure he feels, well I know as he has told me at some lengths, that  he is concerned about the railway, the 'Mighty Cambrian', but without one of its major stations how will it survive into the next century and beyond?  I must go and find him, I last saw him standing outside a half built cottage.

[ChrisN]

I need to reply about sizes of various parts of my drawing.  Thank you to Penrhos who supplied the information.  So a table

 

                                                             

 

 

I went back to my stage 2 drawing and decided to resize what I could.  It meant doing the windows and window panels separately and then bringing in my horizontal and vertical lines to ensure everything was in the right place.  It had to be enlarged to its maximum to do it, but it worked with the sizes apparently correct.  Whether this translates to when it is the actual size, I am uncertain and as I have turned the software off, I cannot check.  Maybe later.  I do get the impression that things move and change size when you resize but not too much.  (Come on, you know things move about when you are not looking at them!)

 

The lower panel of course had to be enlarged and the size was at the end and the moving bit was in the middle.  As it was enlarged to the maximum, I could not see both in the same screen, What to do?  Plug it into a larger screen?  No, I drew a line from the eves panel above it, found the distance and then shortened it by the amount I needed to enlarge the lower panel.  I could then raise the lower panel to the line and, hey presto, it was the right height. 

 

You notice that the inside windows are too small.  I am not going to change these.  If you notice, the difference in size between the inner and the edge of the bolection is a half of 1.22mm, that is 0.61mm.  There is another layer between these, so the difference at the sides is 0.3mm.  I am just concerned that if I cut it any larger, when I glue the laminates together the difference id size will disappear.  Having done a similar method on shorter six wheel coaches and found that there is a certain amount of creep as you go along the coach I would sooner err on the side of caution.

 

(Sorry, I wrote this in word and found that I could not paste the table without making a Jpeg out of it!)

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Miss Prism]

What do you mean by 'bolection width' and 'bolection door window width'?

 

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

What do you mean by 'bolection width' and 'bolection door window width'?

 

 

Good question.  Sorry I shortened it for the table.  It means the total width of the window to the edge of the bolections and the door bolection is the same.  I meant to post a diagram but forgot, so here is one now.

 

 

The blue lines are inside widths and the green ones, sorry it is very difficult to get colours that stand out, are the 'bolection widths'.  I did not use these to find the size but just clicked on each element as that gives height and width.  I know that these will include the lines and I am not sure how wide the cutting will be so even if the drawing is 100% accurate it may be that the final product will not be but at worse we are talking about points of a millimetre.

[MikeOxon]

I'm impressed by your thirst for accuracy. 

 

I too have found that outer layers can stretch a little when applied, especially those that are very skeletal.  I usually decided to omit the raised bolections, because they were just too uncertain in 4mm scale (shame on me!). 

 

There are lots of useful dimensions in a post by Russ Elliott on the Scalefour forum.  Note that the real mouldings have quite complex cross-sections - far from simple rectangles.

 

Remember, when looking at drawings on the computer that, even when magnified, they are still limited by the pixel pitch of your screen, so can seem to jump about a bit.  I'm not sure whether you can do the same thing in 'Studio' but, when using 'Autosketch', I used to paste an illustration of the coach side (either a scanned drawing or a photo) on a locked background layer and then place my own components over them on a new layer.  By doing it this way, I never had to fiddle about with dimension figures but just placed them in alignment with the underlying reference (always assuming that my source was correct).

 

Now, I'm inserting those same drawings into my 3D software but that's a whole new can of worms!

[ChrisN]

10 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I'm impressed by your thirst for accuracy. 

 

I too have found that outer layers can stretch a little when applied, especially those that are very skeletal.  I usually decided to omit the raised bolections, because they were just too uncertain in 4mm scale (shame on me!). 

 

There are lots of useful dimensions in a post by Russ Elliott on the Scalefour forum.  Note that the real mouldings have quite complex cross-sections - far from simple rectangles.

 

Remember, when looking at drawings on the computer that, even when magnified, they are still limited by the pixel pitch of your screen, so can seem to jump about a bit.  I'm not sure whether you can do the same thing in 'Studio' but, when using 'Autosketch', I used to paste an illustration of the coach side (either a scanned drawing or a photo) on a locked background layer and then place my own components over them on a new layer.  By doing it this way, I never had to fiddle about with dimension figures but just placed them in alignment with the underlying reference (always assuming that my source was correct).

 

Now, I'm inserting those same drawings into my 3D software but that's a whole new can of worms!

 

Thank you Mike.  Thirst for accuracy, yes.  Umm.  It is like quicksand, it just sucks you in.  The Twll Du was not called that for no reason, but then if I can, I think, why not try?

 

Raised bolections, umm yes.  I was going to omit them as well until I was sent an article from Railway Modeller by Teddy Francis who cut a piece of plasticard, by hand that is, as a rectangle larger than the window, glued it on then cut it from the inside then chamfered it into a sort of triangle.  It is worth a go, if it fails then maybe I will just score the line around the edge and maybe paint a different colour.  If I succeed, oh help!  I will have to repeat it on all my other GWR coaches.

 

Thank you for the link.

 

I can only get the dimensions correct at the largest magnification it is able to do.  I am not sure if it really keeps it as lower magnifications although it says it does.  ("Honest Guv, not moved.")  However at least I have tried.  I have been surprised on other coaches imperfections that I thought were too small to show up are noticeable.  Well at least to me and if the imperfection gets magnified in the processes it may affect the final result.

 

If you look at the earlier pictures of the drawing you will see that I have drawn over a diagram.  As with other diagrams I have used, and this is better than the others, it is at a slight angle, maybe not a degree but enough to be noticeable from one end to the other.  Also line widths vary, and actual sizes of windows vary on the drawing down the coach.  One Cambrian drawing gradually increased in scale down the coach and I spent ages on another trying to get the kink out of the roof as I was scanning it only to find the kink was on the drawing...……….  My MSLR coaches are what they are, as are the ones I have drawn so far for the Cambrian, but I have, and will transfer parts from one drawing to another to save time.  

 

So, time spent now will hopefully be saved later.  Having sizes now means on other coaches with different dimensions I can size first.

 

Good luck with your 3D printer.  I am sure that is the way forward.  I will end up with five laminates per side, and end, plus the roof, then there is the under gubbins, plus the bogies.  6ft Dean bogies.  Last time I looked on Shapeways they were £5 for one.  Do them myself?  How?  No idea.

[Miss Prism]

Chris, just a note on semantics - doors do not have 'bolections' - they have an aperture, in which the droplight slides, and the droplight itself has an aperture of course.

 

[ChrisN]

36 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Chris, just a note on semantics - doors do not have 'bolections' - they have an aperture, in which the droplight slides, and the droplight itself has an aperture of course.

 

 

Brilliant, thanks.  I assumed that as the diagram had three parts for the window doors, the same as the compartment windows that they had bolections.  Now looking again at the photos, of course they do not.  I often look, but do not see.  It will change how I cut the panel side and how I cut the different laminations.

 

I am so glad there are people around to point out the obvious to me.  Thank you.

[Nick Gough]

4 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I  will end up with five laminates per side, and end, plus the roof, then there is the under gubbins, plus the bogies.  6ft Dean bogies.  Last time I looked on Shapeways they were £5 for one.  Do them myself?  How?  No idea.

You might find this thread interesting Chris:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81360-using-inkscape-and-the-silhouette-to-create-coach-bogies/

 

[MikeOxon]

17 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

You might find this thread interesting Chris:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81360-using-inkscape-and-the-silhouette-to-create-coach-bogies/

 

Many thanks from me, too, Nick.  I'd missed that thread and it looks like good fodder for my 3D printer.

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

You might find this thread interesting Chris:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81360-using-inkscape-and-the-silhouette-to-create-coach-bogies/

 

 

Nick,

Thank you.  I am familiar with Jason's work but have not read this thread.  I will need a diagram of a Dean 6ft bogie, plus any others come to that.  Will have to go looking.

[Nick Gough]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Nick,

Thank you.  I am familiar with Jason's work but have not read this thread.  I will need a diagram of a Dean 6ft bogie, plus any others come to that.  Will have to go looking.

Give me a day or two and I should be able to help with that.

[ChrisN]

1 minute ago, Nick Gough said:

Give me a day or two and I should be able to help with that.

 

Nick, 

Thank you, that would be brilliant.  

 

I have said that once I have made the files then they are free to anyone who asks for a copy.  I do not wish to put them up for anyone to take as I may find them being sold on a certain auction site.

[Charlie586]

10 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Nick,

Thank you.  I am familiar with Jason's work but have not read this thread.  I will need a diagram of a Dean 6ft bogie, plus any others come to that.  Will have to go looking.

Chris

There's a good set of drawings in the first Russell carriage book. 

One of my many unfinished jobs is a 3d model of them in component parts so it's easier and cheaper to print a large batch of them  (about 30% done)

 

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Charlie586 said:

Chris

There's a good set of drawings in the first Russell carriage book. 

One of my many unfinished jobs is a 3d model of them in component parts so it's easier and cheaper to print a large batch of them  (about 30% done)

 

 

Charlie,

Thank you.  I will go and have a look.

[MikeOxon]

18 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Nick,

Thank you.  I am familiar with Jason's work but have not read this thread.  I will need a diagram of a Dean 6ft bogie, plus any others come to that.  Will have to go looking.

Churchward gave a paper to the Swindon Mechanics Institution in 1896 about 'Modern Railway Carriages'  It contains a lot of construction details, including a drawing of a Dean Bogie.  The paper can be downloaded from https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=9C1B061304184D92&id=9C1B061304184D92!117&parId=9C1B061304184D92!105&o=OneUp

 

[drduncan]

10 hours ago, Charlie586 said:

Chris

There's a good set of drawings in the first Russell carriage book. 

One of my many unfinished jobs is a 3d model of them in component parts so it's easier and cheaper to print a large batch of them  (about 30% done)

 

Charlie,

i hope you are able to finish this project soon!

DrDuncan

[ChrisN]

I just want to show a picture.

 

 

What is this you say.  A bare baseboard?  Yes, but it is the layout and it is up.  It has not been up for about a year.  Firstly as we had someone to stay and this is the spare bedroom, and then it got filled with stuff from my father-in-law's house.  However, this weekend we have two of my grand children coming to stay so my wife said, "We need to get the railway up."  The stuff has been magiced elsewhere to do this but will probably go under it until eventually dealt with.  Hence all the piles on the cupboards at the back.  

 

So, I can test things, and make sure it still works and all the stuff you do when you have a working layout.

Edited May 10, 2019 by ChrisN

[Northroader]

And Mr. Price will be telling you how to run it properly.

[ChrisN]

Well he is the Station Master, and it is his station

[ChrisN]

Had a running session today.  It worked enough to keep a six year old happy, but one line on the station does not work and neither does a short section between a baseboard joint and a insulated section.

 

Also found that it should never have worked in the first place as there is no real electrical connection between two of the boards, unless of course a wire is missing.

 

It is all soldiered joints so perhaps I will have to have a rethink about my joints.  Time and space are the only two problems in sorting it.

[ChrisN]

I am pleased to say that at last I have seen the railway again.  It seems a long time since the last time a train ran on it.  This is strange as my calendar always is at Thursday 21st March 1895.  Never changes, I wonder if it has stopped.

 

 

 

Now I am very pleased to be able to contribute to this broadsheet, or whatever it is.  When I ask my Contractor about it, he began to mumble and say things I did not understand.  He often does that.  As you see, I am standing in front of a cottage.  Not my cottage.  If it was, I would have had a man round to paint the doors and windows.  My contractor built this.  I ask you, look at it.  It is a new building but it looks old and worn.  He said it is meant to be like it.  You see this is what I have to put up with.  There is worse to come.

 

 

 

As you can see, it is not even finished and look at it.  It is covered in dust.  I did ask him to clean it up but he obviously does not have a woman’s touch.  Now why am I showing you this.  Well, this is the only building he has made, not my station, or my cottage.  You ask why am I concerned?  He is busy making coaches, and where will the passengers go when they arrive?  Where is the Refreshment Room, or the waiting room, or the Ticket Office?  It does not matter how many people come, we have nowhere to put them.

That is not the only thing.  I have a wife and five children.  I have nowhere to live.  My wife has had to go and live with her mother in Dolgelley.  It is fortunate that the Dolgelley trains were one of the few My Contractor actually manged to run.  Wrong engine, wrong coaches, but at least it ran. 

 

My son works with me at the station.  He is a ticket clerk.  No, I did not give him the job.  He had to go to Oswestry to the Head Office.  A long journey for a boy of twelve.  I thought he would be quite able, but his mother insisted on going with him.  They were impressed with him.  I am so proud.  Have not seen him recently though.  I asked My Contractor, and he just mumbled.  I think he knows more than he is letting on. 

 

Now he says it will be alright soon as he is finally retiring at the end of October.  Retiring!  Retiring!  How will anything ever get done?  He seems to think that it will mean he has more time.  He  never makes any sense to me.

[ChrisN]

Thank you to everyone for all the 'likes' and other reactions.  Mr Price is quite embarrassed but secretly pleased that he had so many.  The posts this week cover up not much is happening but I may have time for some more drawing this week.  Thank you too for the help towards the Dean Bogies.

 

This coming Saturday is EXpoEM South.  Now as you know I do not model EM, but the big advantage that this exhibition has is that I can walk to it.  If anyone is going to be around on the Saturday, please let me know and we can arrange where to meet.  Just a hint, I will not be wearing a white coat, blue rubber gloves or be carrying a yellow radiation monitor.

[Mikkel]

I seem to have missed this very important communication from Mr Price!

 

I hope he is all right. He sounds a bit lonely. His wife has clearly gone off to discover her true female self, whilst the son seems to have gotten into trouble, perhaps involving drugs. We hear nothing of the other children, but they are probably attending a climate change demo somewhere. Meanwhile everyone has forgotten Mr Price, the 50+ white male. Is there a men's support group in Traeth Mawr? 

 

I like the colouring of the building very much!