Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Anotheran]

Really good to see this Chris as I purchased the same print in order to do 645 class (number 645 itself) which was a regular at Newcastle Emlyn between the opening of the station in 1896 and 1906. in addition to changing the plate count on the boiler I'm planning to cut down the bunker as it's a bit long. But that last bit may be shelved as a step too far for my skills as it will probably require surgery to the donor chassis as well. I'm very eager to see how your build goes. What running number are you planning to use?

 

Kind regards, Neil

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Anotheran said:

Really good to see this Chris as I purchased the same print in order to do 645 class (number 645 itself) which was a regular at Newcastle Emlyn between the opening of the station in 1896 and 1906. in addition to changing the plate count on the boiler I'm planning to cut down the bunker as it's a bit long. But that last bit may be shelved as a step too far for my skills as it will probably require surgery to the donor chassis as well. I'm very eager to see how your build goes. What running number are you planning to use?

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

I am not going to cut it down as it would need the chassis modified and it fits quite well at the moment.  I had to file down the inside to make it fit but when I put it on it is quite snug.  If you only take a photo of it at an angle it will make the back look shorter anyway.

 

I have just spent ages searching to find the number!  In the book Ruabon to Dolgelley the number of the 645 class is 772 so unless someone can give me further details as to what ran on that line I will use that number.  Of course once it is all finished and the four coaches are all painted up then someone will pop up with definite information on what engines were running in 1895 and what coaches they pulled proving what I have is completely wrong.  

[ChrisN]

Just to show you I am completely consistent, a different project in every post, I thought I would show the Stroudly brake third.  (I need to get some filler on my GWR coaches at some point and when I do I will at the same time do the front of the loco, and maybe lengthen several ladies skirts, depending on the filler.)

 

I started this almost a year ago while I was staying in a hotel while I worked in a hospital testing a brand new piece of equipment.  (Monday morning; Superintendent, "Chris, my manager says these tests are costing us a lot of money, are they really necessary?"  Monday afternoon: Me, "Part of your equipment that costs about £10k and without which you cannot scan, is faulty.)

 

It did not go well as I thought as it was cardboard I would use tacky glue and not PVA.  Bad move.  I fitted the panelling by wiping tacky glue over the side and trying to fit the panelling.  It did not slip into place very well and instead of the glue disappearing into the side it stayed there in lumps.  Fortunately, I managed to scrape the lumps off so it has been salvaged.

 

 

 

Hopefully this is self explanatory.  As you can see the panels on the end are a bit wonky.  That is because they are very thin..  I am sure it is possible to do it better than this.  They are produced as laser cuts by Skinnylinny of this parish and on his website at the bottom there is one with very straight panels.  I thought I had taken more pictures on my phone when I was away but if I did I cannot find them.

 

 

Gluing the end and side together and being held in a magnetic clamp until dry.  (The paper is showing the experiments I was doing with my grandson and his set of magnets to see which one was strongest.)

 

 

 

Top hat bearings superglued into the W irons, axleboxes and covers superglued on as well.  Two PVA'd to MDF base.  Second side drying and ducket covers on.  (I need to think about this for when I cut out coaches with duckets as this seems a good method of producing a sturdy component.

 

That is not quite as far as I have got, but it is as far as I have got with pictures.  I still need to decide who is going to be in it as it is the servants of the Lord in the Saloon First.  The Ladies lady's maid will be in it but not sure who else.

 

Also what I need to know is, were the seats in these ancient coaches bench type made from flat bits of cardboard, or Ration type as in the other coaches, and what colaour would they have been if they were upholstered?

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

You will shortly have a PM re LB&SCR carriage interiors.

Jonathan

[Northroader]

Chris, looking in my Brighton coaches part one book, Stroudley four wheel thirds had the seats done with a plain wood curved back, and a shaped wood bench seat, with a plain pad on top, horsehair stuffed. The suburban stock had shoulder height partitions, main line stock full height partitions.

[ChrisN]

8 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Chris, looking in my Brighton coaches part one book, Stroudley four wheel thirds had the seats done with a plain wood curved back, and a shaped wood bench seat, with a plain pad on top, horsehair stuffed. The suburban stock had shoulder height partitions, main line stock full height partitions.

 

Northroader,

Thank you.  The kit I have has full height partitions so it must be mainline stock.  I had wondered what the difference was.  I think I will cut off the top of a Ratio set of seats to make them look different. 

 

The plain pad sounds like fun on a wooden seat.  One person moves and they all slip off.  I shall make the pad a dirty brown.

[Northroader]

The book quotes the one they have preserved on the Bluebell as having remnants of rexine glued to the seat, presume the pads were similar, splinters is guessed at. Possibly black? 

[Donw]

A lot of good progress there Chris, most of which I think you thought was beyond you when starting. You have come a long way.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Not quite an update, just thoughts.

 

I wondered if there were any images of the inside of the Stroudley carriages.  I 'Googled' 'Stroudley Brake Coach' and came up with images from the Bluebell Railway of the rebuilds of these carriages.  

 

Here is one that is from a main line coach so has a full partition.  As you see it is just a plain flat back.  Here is one from a suburban brake coach which on the other partitions is not full and the back appears flat, but this is the partition to the brake and appears slightly curved.  Now I know this is not original but you must assume that the reconstructors have not got it completely wrong so even a cut down Ratio seat would not be right.  I have an idea though for seats from cardboard with a curved back.  You will have to wait until I see if it works though.

 

If you think these pictures are wrong and you have images of the inside of these coaches taken in the 19th century, then please let me know.

 

In other news the roof of the T20 which I have made I find when I offer it up is about 1mm to wide.  I will get a scalpel to it.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited March 7, 2020 by ChrisN

[Mikkel]

Interesting to follow your investigation into coach interiors, Chris, a classic blind spot of many modellers (myself included). 

 

In the meantime I have forgotten how it is Stroudley coaches would appear at Traeth Mawr? That's not a critique but genuine curioisity. No doubt there is a delightful explanation! (you mention servants of Lord).

[ChrisN]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Interesting to follow your investigation into coach interiors, Chris, a classic blind spot of many modellers (myself included). 

 

In the meantime I have forgotten how it is Stroudley coaches would appear at Traeth Mawr? That's not a critique but genuine curioisity. No doubt there is a delightful explanation! (you mention servants of Lord).

 

Mikkel,

I have just checked and to my horror, it was nearly THREE Years ago I built a LB&SCR saloon First, explanation is here and building about here.  The saloon is not through braked so needs something behind it and also somewhere to put the servants, still not sure how many apart from the Lady's Maid.  A brake third was decided upon and in the end this one was thought the best option.  I still need to build the carriage wagon and also get a LB&SCR horsebox.

 

If you are interested I can post again the timetable of how this train got from Groombridge to Traeth Mawr, attached to the back of timetabled trains.  There are several possibilities and none of them are quick.

[Nick Holliday]

On 7 March 2020 at 13:20, ChrisN said:

Not quite an update, just thoughts.

 

I wondered if there were any images of the inside of the Stroudley carriages.  I 'Googled' 'Stroudley Brake Coach' and came up with images from the Bluebell Railway of the rebuilds of these carriages.  

There are several interior views in the first volume of the LBSCR Coaches quartet, but during renovation. 

On 7 March 2020 at 13:20, ChrisN said:

 

Here is one that is from a main line coach so has a full partition.  As you see it is just a plain flat back. 

There would be a plain flat back where there will be fully upholstered seating. This can be seen in the various company drawings that show details internal sections.

On 7 March 2020 at 13:20, ChrisN said:

Here is one from a suburban brake coach which on the other partitions is not full and the back appears flat, but this is the partition to the brake and appears slightly curved.  Now I know this is not original but you must assume that the reconstructors have not got it completely wrong so even a cut down Ratio seat would not be right.  I have an idea though for seats from cardboard with a curved back.  You will have to wait until I see if it works though.

 

If you think these pictures are wrong and you have images of the inside of these coaches taken in the 19th century, then please let me know.

Some of the earlier third class seating had no padding to the rear, just plain wood. Some of the photos and drawings show that the back was profiled to provide a degree of comfort. One photo suggests that the profile was formed using horizontal planks, creating a void at low level between the two backs, whereas some sections suggest a vertical solid partition with the curve formed using a thin panel, others hinting at solid padding. I think even the Brighton would not make their customers suffer a solid vertical seat back.

[ChrisN]

15 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

There are several interior views in the first volume of the LBSCR Coaches quartet, but during renovation. 

There would be a plain flat back where there will be fully upholstered seating. This can be seen in the various company drawings that show details internal sections.

Some of the earlier third class seating had no padding to the rear, just plain wood. Some of the photos and drawings show that the back was profiled to provide a degree of comfort. One photo suggests that the profile was formed using horizontal planks, creating a void at low level between the two backs, whereas some sections suggest a vertical solid partition with the curve formed using a thin panel, others hinting at solid padding. I think even the Brighton would not make their customers suffer a solid vertical seat back.

 

Nick,

Thank you.  What I am intending to do going from the Bluebell picture with the low back and shaping is to take 5mm of cardboard and roll it, putting 2mm of card inside and gluing that as a low back.  On the other hand I could have a wooden back and then another piece of different coloured card as the seat cushion and back.

 

This will be one of only two LB&SCR coaches I ever build which is why I have not invested in any books on the subject.

[corneliuslundie]

If you could borrow a copy of Ian White's first volumes on LB&SCR carriages they may have relevant information, as he uses lost of official drawings. But not worth buying for one interior.

Jonathan

[Mikkel]

4 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I have just checked and to my horror, it was nearly THREE Years ago I built a LB&SCR saloon First, explanation is here and building about here. 

 

Thanks Chris. I remember now, it was part of the discussions that fictionally tied together a series of layouts (and which I believe led to the Achingverse). It would be fun to see a joint photo sequence some day, with the coaches on both yours and Blue Lightning's  layouts (although I am aware there is a time difference).

 

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Mikkel

[ChrisN]

15 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Thanks Chris. I remember now, it was part of the discussions that fictionally tied together a series of layouts (and which I believe led to the Achingverse). It would be fun to see a joint photo sequence some day, with the coaches on both yours and Blue Lightning's  layouts (although I am aware there is a time difference).

 

 

 

Mikkel,

I believe at some point I will be sent a West Norfolk wagon which will appear at some point on my layout bringing some goods from sunny Norfolk.  Also I think, once I have started to cut saloons on my cutter then Cambrian saloons might start appearing on other layouts, but how that will work I am not sure.  How this particular train might appear on Oak Hill is worth thinking about.

[BlueLightning]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

It would be fun to see a joint photo sequence some day, with the coaches on both yours and Blue Lightning's  layouts (although I am aware there is a time difference).

 

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

Also I think, once I have started to cut saloons on my cutter then Cambrian saloons might start appearing on other layouts, but how that will work I am not sure.  How this particular train might appear on Oak Hill is worth thinking about.

 

That is something I would be very interested in being involved in! Although the layout is currently in a semi-mothballed state waiting for me to rip it up for replacement!

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

 

 

That is something I would be very interested in being involved in! Although the layout is currently in a semi-mothballed state waiting for me to rip it up for replacement!

 

Gary,

Maybe, just maybe when I have finished the train I ought to bring it down, maybe at a show or something.

[ChrisN]

Now a different tack.  I was reading in the C.C. Green Coast Lines of the Cambrian Railways, Vol 2, when I came across a picture of a grounded coach body.  It was to my great surprise and joy, a Parliamentary Brake Third, complete with ducket.  One of these was my next build, er, scratchbuild, alongside an early Second and Oswestry 4 wheel Third.  All very old but will get a run and maybe a permanent allocation.  

 

Looking closer at later pictures showed another I had never seen.  (I have only read the book twice at least.)  This was a body of a Composite, numbered 173.  When I checked Mountford No 173 was a 6 wheeled something else built in 1894 so this coach must have been replaced in 1894.    However it got me thinking.

 

I went to Christiansen and Miller and they stated in Vol 1 exactly how many 4 wheel coaches the Cambrian had in 1867.  In Vol 2 they state that of the 209 coaches in 1888 nearly three quarters were four wheeled, but do not state what they were, neither do they state what stock was built after that even though they appear to know.

 

Why is this important for 1895?  According to Mountford 38 vehicles were replaced in the first 209 after 1895 and before 1922, mostly in the first fives years of the twentieth century.  It would be interesting to know what these were.  There is obviously somewhere a list, that may or may not have running numbers, of the first 4 wheelers, and then the subsequent builds.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[corneliuslundie]

Exactly the kind of information I have been looking for too.

Jonathan

[Northroader]

The trouble is all the pregroup companies that went into the GWR would have their own records for their own individual stock, so the record you’re after would have been at Oswestry. The GWR created a register for all the companies stock that still existed at the takeover, with their new numbers, but all the old stuff may not have gone to Swindon, but kept wherever it was until the place closed. Someone who cared may have kept it, otherwise it could have gone on a bonfire. I’ve seen all the CCE drawings kept at Newport Division for lines closed by Beeching have that happen, and the water plans  at Cathays for Cardiff Valleys lines were junked after steam went.

I worked alongside Eric Mountford when I came to Cardiff Division, I was on the loco side, and he was on the ODM. He was a lovely guy, originally from Swindon, then worked at Caerphilly works. When that went, he was one who cared and saved quite a bit, and kept it at home, using it to write his books. I saw the register of absorbed stock he had, which must have been the copy for Caerphilly. Then he died, and the whole lot disappeared into private collections, folks who came to him through his writing. Whether any still exists is open to question.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Then he died, and the whole lot disappeared into private collections, folks who came to him through his writing. Whether any still exists is open to question.

 

There's the rub. I do think that those in possession of private collections of archival material have a moral responsibility to ensure that it passes to some organisation - such as a line society - that can conserve the material and make it available to researchers.

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

The trouble is all the pregroup companies that went into the GWR would have their own records for their own individual stock, so the record you’re after would have been at Oswestry. The GWR created a register for all the companies stock that still existed at the takeover, with their new numbers, but all the old stuff may not have gone to Swindon, but kept wherever it was until the place closed. Someone who cared may have kept it, otherwise it could have gone on a bonfire. I’ve seen all the CCE drawings kept at Newport Division for lines closed by Beeching have that happen, and the water plans  at Cathays for Cardiff Valleys lines were junked after steam went.

I worked alongside Eric Mountford when I came to Cardiff Division, I was on the loco side, and he was on the ODM. He was a lovely guy, originally from Swindon, then worked at Caerphilly works. When that went, he was one who cared and saved quite a bit, and kept it at home, using it to write his books. I saw the register of absorbed stock he had, which must have been the copy for Caerphilly. Then he died, and the whole lot disappeared into private collections, folks who came to him through his writing. Whether any still exists is open to question.

 

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's the rub. I do think that those in possession of private collections of archival material have a moral responsibility to ensure that it passes to some organisation - such as a line society - that can conserve the material and make it available to researchers.

 

What is annoying is that it appears from the Christiansen book that they had a copy, but maybe the only one available was for 1867, although the total numbers of coaches was known.  There are Traffic Officer reports to the Board, and rolling stock reports in Kew Archive but there are a number and it would take quite some work.  I am sure they have been looked through for the various books that have been written so someone may have a list.  In a 'New History of the Cambrian', they have how many coaches were built from 1891 to 1895, which was when a number of new carriages were built but nothing before.

[BlueLightning]

On 08/03/2020 at 21:30, ChrisN said:

 

Gary,

Maybe, just maybe when I have finished the train I ought to bring it down, maybe at a show or something.

 

That sounds like a great idea!!

[ChrisN]

I have been moving forward on several fronts.  I have just received Stroudley buffers and oil lamp tops from Chris Cox, and the T20 now has seats and roofs are being worked on.  (No, I am not working on the roof, I am sitting in a chair making the roof.)  The other thing I am doing is research.

 

As I said earlier I have trawled through C. C. Green's books to see if I can get anymore numbers of old coaches.  On page 36 of Cambrian Railways Album, vol 1 there is a picture of a Dolgelley Branch train in 1882.  It is made up of three Parliamentary Thirds, for which there are no numbers.  The second coach is an Ashbury Composite of 1860 with number 47.  This was replaced in 1893.  (Sigh).  However another was made into a Departmental coach after 1895.  I am not sure if these were exactly the same as the Oswestry 1885 Composites for which there is a Cambrian Kits etch, but they look similar.

 

The train is headed by an Oswestry and Newton brake numbered 101.  Success! Except it was also replaced in 1893.  It does look easily buildable as it is a box with panelling and a ducket.  However, when I have tried to work out its length, taking into account it is not side on, by two different methods I make it about 20 feet.  This I find surprising as it is made up of 9 panels, all of the same size, two of which are doors.  I would be surprised if doors were bigger than 2 feet so this would give a length of 18 feet.  I have not found any information in the books as to the correct length so I shall probably build it to 18 feet unless anyone can tell me otherwise.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.