Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[corneliuslundie]

Just choose the right lighting for your layout and you will be fine.

Jonathan

[Mikkel]

If a loco is one colour off the layout, and another colour under layout lighting, what colour is the loco?

[ChrisN]

16 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

If a loco is one colour off the layout, and another colour under layout lighting, what colour is the loco?

 

Whatever colour Mr Price tells me it is.  

[NCB]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

If a loco is one colour off the layout, and another colour under layout lighting, what colour is the loco?

 

Prototype had the same problem. Colours under grey skies after rain had past look darker and more saturated than in sunlight. Different again up against the buffers at Paddington.

[MikeOxon]

 

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

 

Whatever colour Mr Price tells me it is.  

Colour is a perception that is strongly affected by experience and context.  I'm sure Mr Price sees many engines in all sorts of weather and lighting conditions.  I'm sure his opinion is worth following, Chris.

[ChrisN]

Now for those of you who like everything GWR.  (Mr Price is not one of them, and in fact retires at the age of 70 just as the GWR takes over.  His son becomes the first GWR Station Master of Traeth Mawr.)

 

Firstly I noticed that Accuscale are bringing out a Manor Class Loco, the type that would have run troop trains to Traeth Mawr during WW2.  Never fear, the layout is not going to be changed to a later date. So, what is GWR today?

 

 

 

The G20.  This was built in 1894, and I did wonder as it was less than a year old if it would have found itself to Wales.  I assume then, as now, the older stock gets cascaded from London.  I wondered if the G19 would be better as they were built in 1892 and the instructions say they were similar.  I found a diagram of both, and yes they are similar, but different in the worst way possible, in the panelling over the windows.  So as it is a March day and there are no race meetings on near London, or family trips to the seaside the GWR was desperate for revenue.

 

I decided to build the body as I wanted to know where the supports for the running board go, as I thought this might affect the chassis and the turning of the wheels.  I now think that it is too far out to have an effect.  The body is a Shire Scenes brass replacement for the Ratio coach side, both the side and the end.  It is expected that you will use the Ratio floor but I have found they are at least 1mm short on both length and width.  I now make floors to fit.  It is superglued together.

 

Now to the chassis.

 

 

 

The springs are Dart Castings, (MJT), GWR springs.  I had thought of attaching them to the W irons but decided that I would have more room if they were stuck to the inside of the footboard.  They seem to be fine although they have no real point of anchor.  The next one I build I think I will have to think about sandwiching the springs between two strips of plasticard.  The axleboxes are also Dart and come with the springs.

 

This was either end done, and so I took it to the railway, loaded it with a couple of Humbrol tins and pushed it back wards and forwards around the curves to see it is worked.  So far, so good.

 

I then set to work on the middle axle.  It needed a W iron as the middle support is inside the wheel.  I decided to make them out of platicard, but about half way through I looked again at the spare set of W irons that came with the fret and decided that the best way was not to save these up for use on wagons but to hack the W irons off the support and glue them to the footboard.  I then tried to run the coach round the same curves and found that I needed to open out the holes in the W irons so that the end of the axle had more of a target to aim at so it could go through.  I also opened out the holes on the axleboxes before glueing them on.

 

I tried again and found that as I had left so much space between the runners to prevent fouling that the axle twisted, so I added more plasticard strips to hold it in place.

 

 

 

It still was not perfect so I removed the wheelset and then rubbed and filed the plasticard so that it was smooth wherever there was movement.  I replaced the wheels and tried again.  It was much more smooth.  I then tried pushing it with a loco and it went round the whole circuit several times, then came off.  I looked at the end wheels and decided that I had left them too loose.  I had not want to restrict turning but as they ended up not vertical that i what was happening.  I tightened the nut and added another as a locking nut.  

 

It mostly goes around with no problems except sometimes it comes off at the curved point leaving the station.  It ha no problem going in.  This point has caused problems for other coaches.  However, I found that if I turned it around, there was no problem.  Even more surprisingly, the other way round it ran much more smoothly on the straight, i.e., if I pushed it, it went further, both ways. (Maybe there is a slight curve on the fiddleyard.  )

 

So it looks like I have a working system.  I shall have to see how I get on with making more of the same.  (Just seen that my locking nuts do not lock, both nuts come loose together. oh well......)

Edited October 4, 2022 by ChrisN

[Northroader]

Ah, six wheelers.....

[Mikkel]

That looks good Chris. A lady in a high viz Victorian dress at one end will remind you which is the best way round for the coach.  

 

11 hours ago, ChrisN said:

It is expected that you will use the Ratio floor but I have found they are at least 1mm short on both length and width.

 

Thanks for the tip. Is that only on the saloon or all the Shirescenes modification kits? It's been a while since I've built any of these, but have a couple on the To Do list (some of the new and revised ones).

[NCB]

Wondered, would it be worth cutting the ends off the central axle, to stop conflict with the axle boxes?

 

Nigel

[ChrisN]

4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

That looks good Chris. A lady in a high viz Victorian dress at one end will remind you which is the best way round for the coach.  

 

 

Thanks for the tip. Is that only on the saloon or all the Shirescenes modification kits? It's been a while since I've built any of these, but have a couple on the To Do list (some of the new and revised ones).

 

Mikkel,

This coach will have ladies at one end and gentlemen at the other so probably, after getting it wrong a few times I might be able to work out which way round it should go.  

 

All Shirescenes modification kits will need it.  As you are replacing the plastic sides with brass you need to make up the thickness of the plastic that you have lost.  If you do not it is not desperate but you will have a gap all the way round the bottom of the sides.  The tabs at the end are long enough to hold the floor.  There is a fold over section at the bottom of the sides which it claims makes up for the loss of plastic, but unless you leave the bend at 90 degrees to the side it is not enough.  One of my brake coaches I did a new floor for, and increased the length but forgot the width.  The gap is noticeable if you tur it upside down.  The compartments still keep the sides rigid.  I did not need to for this one, but on the four wheel coaches I mark out and drill the same holes for the fixings as you have on the Ratio floors.

 

I now have to work out where to put the vacuum cylinder and the gas tank so as not to foul the wheels.  I have also not thought about, if and how I show brakes round the wheels.  I believe that the six wheelers did not have brakes on the centre wheels, so it will just be the end ones.

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, NCB said:

Wondered, would it be worth cutting the ends off the central axle, to stop conflict with the axle boxes?

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

I think I might have considered that briefly.  The axles are metal and I probably have a saw that would do the job but holding it would be the hardest part.  I have a small modelling vice so two pieces of wood with a slit for the axle would work.

 

The opened out axleboxes work quite well.  In fact the discipline of making sure the wheelset did not rotate probably helps with the running anyway.  I have several more six wheelers to build and although in the end I hope to get to a design that works each time there may well be modifications next time.

[Compound2632]

I've filed the points off axles. It's tedious and it helps to have a back to back gauge as it makes life easier to slip a wheel right off the axle or at least down the axle out of harm's way.

[Mikkel]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Mikkel,

This coach will have ladies at one end and gentlemen at the other so probably, after getting it wrong a few times I might be able to work out which way round it should go.  

 

All Shirescenes modification kits will need it.  As you are replacing the plastic sides with brass you need to make up the thickness of the plastic that you have lost.  If you do not it is not desperate but you will have a gap all the way round the bottom of the sides.  The tabs at the end are long enough to hold the floor.  There is a fold over section at the bottom of the sides which it claims makes up for the loss of plastic, but unless you leave the bend at 90 degrees to the side it is not enough.  One of my brake coaches I did a new floor for, and increased the length but forgot the width.  The gap is noticeable if you tur it upside down.  The compartments still keep the sides rigid.  I did not need to for this one, but on the four wheel coaches I mark out and drill the same holes for the fixings as you have on the Ratio floors.

 

I now have to work out where to put the vacuum cylinder and the gas tank so as not to foul the wheels.  I have also not thought about, if and how I show brakes round the wheels.  I believe that the six wheelers did not have brakes on the centre wheels, so it will just be the end ones.

 

Many thanks for the info Chris, I see what you mean. Duly noted. 

[Simond]

I just built a 6-wheeler (in 7mm) from a WEP kit, story's on WT, but I needed to nip the end of the axles off and I simply used track cutters, they're steel but it's both thin, and mild.  Touch with a file afterwards and it's done.  It does not have brakes on the middle axle, but does have enhanced side play and vertical play by means of a slotted, narrow central axle carrier, which, like the one at the far end, is able to rock from side to side.  Thus the vehicle has 3-point compensation and the middle axle simply comes along for the ride. 

 

 

 

since taking the picture, the buffers have been fitted, but it still needs lamp irons.  I've also built the riding van to go with it, and am just doing the brakes - hopefully the weather will be kind enough to allow a coat of primer to be applied, and then I might get on with the crane

 

hope the chassis pic is useful - I also have Slater's compensated milk wagon, another, no compensation at all, and a couple of milk tankers built from kits too - one sprung, one solid.  They all go round corners ok, so it might just be the axle ends catching which is causing you problems.

atb

Simon

[ChrisN]

Simon,

Thank you.  I have a bit more movement in my end wheels as I have fairly tight corners to go round.  I could try screwing the nuts down so that there is no movement and see how that goes.  I have a track cutter that I could use, it is notched as I was trying to cut point motor prongs with it.  The prongs won, so if it works all to the good, if not, nothing is lost.

 

Here is a fair weather warning.  Forecast of 14 degrees next Wednesday, and dry, need to marshal things ready to spray. 

[NCB]

I shove the goggles on and trim the axle ends with a cutting disc, but it can't be done with plastic wheels on; gets pretty hot!

Nigel

[ChrisN]

So, I got my track cutter and snipped off the ends of the axles, then filed them down.  While I was doing that, having taken the wheels off the axle I reamed out the central axle holder with a broach.  Back together again, it sort of ran more smoothly, but came off at another curved point.  I checked the back to back at the lading wheels and perhaps they were a little narrow.  I widened them a fraction.  I also, again, tightened the nuts.  What is obvious is that when the nuts are loose the coach pivots around the central axle, which does not help at all.  I took it to the railway and it ran with no trouble, finally being pushed around by a loco for a couple of laps.

 

The centre wheels are not height adjustable, and are held at the correct height by some plasticard between the coach floor and the wheelset.  Before I added the plasticard it was not in contact with the track and wandered all over the place.  Perhaps I should use a simple spring, like thin folded plasticard; anything too strong would defeat the object.

 

Anyway, back to fixing in seats and tables.

[Simond]

Chris, a see-saw will never work, so do make sure it can’t rock on the centre axle.  
 

Likewise, the centre axle needs side play, it is possible that the vehicle will go round the bends without “steering” outer axles, like my tool van, but I guess not on 00 curves.  You could try a trick I have seen, but do not have an example of;  make a bogie of the centre and one end axle.  Pivot it, very near to the end axle.  Make a pony truck for the other end axle, and pivot it likewise, very near the axle.  The “tail” of the pony truck needs a slotted connection to the bogie so as the bogie swings, the pony truck matches it.

 

I can do a diagram if it would help.

 

hth

Simon

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Simond said:

Chris, a see-saw will never work, so do make sure it can’t rock on the centre axle.  
 

Likewise, the centre axle needs side play, it is possible that the vehicle will go round the bends without “steering” outer axles, like my tool van, but I guess not on 00 curves.  You could try a trick I have seen, but do not have an example of;  make a bogie of the centre and one end axle.  Pivot it, very near to the end axle.  Make a pony truck for the other end axle, and pivot it likewise, very near the axle.  The “tail” of the pony truck needs a slotted connection to the bogie so as the bogie swings, the pony truck matches it.

 

I can do a diagram if it would help.

 

hth

Simon

 

Simon, 

Thank you.  It all seems settled at the moment, and no see-saw; it is making sure it stays like that.  Some nut retainer I think.  Also making it on a simple spring so that it can be depressed if the nuts come loose is something I might investigate.

 

I actually have bought some bogies for the very purpose of doing what you said, but that is for another time.  If I can make this reproducible and consistent then I may just stick with this.  This one is Mark 1.1so I am quite encouraged so far.

[corneliuslundie]

I have put Brassmasters Cleminson chassis on my Rhymney 6-wheelers, though since they have not yet run I can't say how reliable that approach is. They were from etched kits, but I think next time I would make my own. Basically, the centre axle can slide sideways but it is controlled by the end axles which also rotate and have a "prong" which engages with the centre axleguard.

The link is here: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/cleminson_underframe.htm

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have put Brassmasters Cleminson chassis on my Rhymney 6-wheelers, though since they have not yet run I can't say how reliable that approach is. They were from etched kits, but I think next time I would make my own. Basically, the centre axle can slide sideways but it is controlled by the end axles which also rotate and have a "prong" which engages with the centre axleguard.

The link is here: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/cleminson_underframe.htm

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I actually have three of these but not made up.  Someone said that they were 1mm out for Cambrian coaches, but that is not why I have not used them yet.  My version is a modified Dart Castings method they use on six wheel wagons but their wire I found too stiff so it has been substituted with an electric guitar wire.  Although it does not act like the Cleminson on the centre axle it does, well at east when it is upside down, tend to bring the centre axle back to the middle when the end wheels are straight.

[ChrisN]

Not much has happened this week.  I started to fit the seats in the G20 Saloon.  It struck me that I was not certain exactly how wide the seats should be, mainly because I had made the seats 7mm wide when I thought I had made it smaller.  Fortuitously, or not as you may see, there came up on EBay, two Slaters packs of GWR seats.  I looked on the Slaters web site but decided that I would buy them from EBay.  I did not check them properly as I now have two packs of '0' gauge GWR seats.  (If anyone wants them just shout, although I am not sure when I will get to a post office.)  

 

All was not lost though as I measured up the '0' gauge seats and scaled it down to 4mm and found that the seats should be 6mm, except for First Class where it should be 7mm.  It is likely though that I shall use Ratio seats except for GWR coaches.  (Oh yes, I have just done four GWR coaches with Ratio seats, but you can't win 'em all.)

 

While I was waiting for delivery I decided to start on building the early Cambrian coaches from scratch, namely the Oswestry Third, the four compartment Second, and the Parliamentary Brake Third, with a ducket.  

 

The Brake Third will be made from 20 thou plasticard as it will have the outside framing, but the other two will be from 30 thou.  I had intended to do them at the same time.  Previously I had worked out the dimensions of each part, the Third from the diagram in the Christiansen and Miller book, and the Second from a scan of the photo in the C. C. Green Album, vol 1.  

 

Simple?  Um, maybe.  I had just read in the Gascoigne book I showed earlier that the early Cambrian Thirds were 25ft long with a 13ft wheelbase.  The diagram showed very clearly a 15ft wheelbase.  What to do?  I searched through the books and after much deliberation I realised, as you have already realised, that the Ashbury and Metropolitan coaches had 13ft wheelbases and the diagram being of the Oswestry type meant that they had extended the wheelbase.  (Sometimes making a model of Martins Heron and running 450 EMUs has an appeal.  Only sometimes, and then not a lot.)

 

While looking at my diagrams and photos I looked again at the second.  At last a picture.

 

 

 

Now as you can see @Nick Holliday sent me this drawing.  (You may guess why I have put his name on it.)  At the time I looked at the photo in the book and said that this was different from the picture of the second as in the book the central panel was not there.  As I was driven to look at all my information I came across the scanned image that I had, which as been distorted to try and make it square on to the viewer so that I can measure lengths.  It is quite obvious from that image, that although the central panel is not obvious, what is obvious is the fact the the distance between the central doors is wider than the distance between an outside door and a central one.  So what C. C. Green says is a Second, is in fact a Composite, although just looking at the drawing I would assume that the central two compartments are Firsts, unless the one on the left is a Second that has been downgraded.   This of course means that I need to remeasure all my distances before I can make it, probably not until I get my laptop back so that I can use the Silhouette software, not to cut it out just the measuring tool.

 

Yes, here is the Third

 

 

 

My impression is that the beading below the window is larger than the others, thoughts on that would be helpful.

 

Finally, yes I am nearly finished, I am fairly certain that the Parliamentary stock is not 25ft.  Using this image @MikeOxon who straightened it out for me, and I decided that we are looking at nearer 22ft.  I found my 3D print of the loco and it is a little longer than the coaches that I have made so I think that it matches quite well with the photo.

 

Finally, yes really finally, if Ashbury and the Metropolitan Carriage and Wagon works made the same Third class coaches for other railways, are there any surviving photographs?  Or drawings?  A man with his shunting pole standing next to one?  

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.  Maybe some modelling next time.

Edited July 28, 2023 by ChrisN

[Northroader]

Oh well, even a couple of coach seats can be a good start.

[Mikkel]

12 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Yes, here is the Third

 

I very much like the idea in that photo, i.e. showing the people who built the coach. I count 28 souls to build one coach (unless it's just a publicity spin). How many does it take to build one today, I wonder?

 

On reflection, adding up all the global suppliers of each part and all the electronics etc - possibly more!

[Donw]

14 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

I very much like the idea in that photo, i.e. showing the people who built the coach. I count 28 souls to build one coach (unless it's just a publicity spin). How many does it take to build one today, I wonder?

 

On reflection, adding up all the global suppliers of each part and all the electronics etc - possibly more!

 

I suspect evryone who worked in the coach shop turned out for the photo. Not all may have actuall worked on that one but they would be a team. One of our club members is a retired coachbuilder from Derby and would probably know the answers. When you talk about suppliers how far do you go. The workers who produced the steel, mined the iron ore, dug the coal for the steelworks, sawed log into planks, cut down the logs, planted the trees.  The list could be endless. 

At one point I wa quite interested in self sufficiency. But you do need to buy tools,materials,screws nails, even Henry Thoreau  had to buy some stuff. 

 

Chris I would be willing to pay you what they cost for the coach seats or I may find something 4 mil for a swap.

 

Don