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Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)


ChrisN
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On 25/03/2019 at 22:35, K14 said:

 

It's 'otherwise'...

 

The "beading" is an extruded brass weatherstrip that's screwed to the door on either side:—

 

Weatherstrip.png.95b5f8fc86ccf68cc4291f0b99245a3b.png

 

On the lock side its a single length, but on the hinge side it's two pieces, one either side of the bottom hinge.

 

Full size the strip is only around 5/8" wide (maybe 3/4"), so at 4mm/ft it'll need to be implied or risk being seriously overscale.

 

Pete S.

 

 

Fascinating! Never dreamt of this sort of thing. Was this normal with coaches, or just certain styles of coaches?

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The penny has only just dropped. With that beading on the hinge side how can one open the door, as it would dig into the frame as th door opened? 

Or am I missing something? For example, is the "tumblehome" sufficient to bring the door far enough away from the frame to avoid he clash? At the bottom possibly, but surely not at the top.

Jonathan

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11 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The penny has only just dropped. With that beading on the hinge side how can one open the door, as it would dig into the frame as th door opened? 

Or am I missing something? For example, is the "tumblehome" sufficient to bring the door far enough away from the frame to avoid he clash? At the bottom possibly, but surely not at the top.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

If it is a rain strip I assume it must be flexible, although not sure what it would be made of.  This metaal perhaps?

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22 hours ago, NCB said:

 

Fascinating! Never dreamt of this sort of thing. Was this normal with coaches, or just certain styles of coaches?

 

Nigel,

If I make a statement even if wrong, it will prise the right answer out of someone.

 

I am fairly certain that I have only seen this on GWR cooaches.  The MSLR coaches do not appear to have this  although they have beading on the door which may disguise it and the images I have seen on the internet cannot be enlarged to be certain.  The other MSLR, (Mid Suffolk Light Railway),  has some ex Met Railway coaches and these have beading down the handle side.  Looking at pictures of Cambrian Railway coaches I cannot see them. 

 

Need to find excuses for Didcot and Quainton Road.

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12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The penny has only just dropped. With that beading on the hinge side how can one open the door, as it would dig into the frame as th door opened? 

Or am I missing something? For example, is the "tumblehome" sufficient to bring the door far enough away from the frame to avoid he clash? At the bottom possibly, but surely not at the top.

Jonathan

 

The door swings clear as soon as it's opened because of Geometry. The weatherstrip is only on the lower part of the door, so the throw caused by the Tumblehome (or "Turnunder") is sufficient.

 

The hinge pins are all in a vertical line  - so the top two are almost flush with the bodyside whereas the lowest one sticks out a couple of inches or so.

 

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

 

Jonathan,

If it is a rain strip I assume it must be flexible, although not sure what it would be made of.  This metaal perhaps?

 

They're solid brass, so not flexible at all.

 

Pete S.

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Thank you to everyone for the information, likes and following me.  I have done a little more.  Having lined everything up I realised that the height of the panels were to, oh yes, the windows with bolections.  Woops!  So copy and paste a bolection, make it central, then group it with the window and then replace the other windows with the new one.  

 

716302196_E2524.jpg.7e987647aa0df14d740687520a6dd6dd.jpg

 

Line drawn top and bottom of the windows, the move along to make sure all panels ar the same height, use the vertical to check the position of the window to top panel, then centre the other panel by eye.

 

Next the clerestory.

 

1251896809_E2525.jpg.3634bb82ac9bd698922c00d657979023.jpg

 

 

By eye centred the first panel, then used a line to make the others the same, then did the same with the rectangular sections, then the other two sections of panel.  I am still unclear whether the rectangles should be glazed.  Towards the other end there are some really small vertical panels which I have not put in as I think they will be too small to cut.

 

396356119_E2526.jpg.139241236bd1f67d3a8d8e91b2959279.jpg

 

Next I redid the doors, (Oh, you noticed, I do something, undo it, then realise what I did in the first place was right).  If you look carefully you will notice that they are larger than the panel.  It does not matter as they will be scored on the side underneath the panel, whereas the top part will be scored on the panel door.

 

819132667_E2527.jpg.9d79c21bf5a50ff0fbbc08cfd1ded402.jpg

 

I then began to line up the under window panels.  The door ones are short as they accommodate the door handle, the ones under the windows are the width of the windows.  

 

1404601559_E2528.jpg.2cf9898cf4a79ae3082280ceda286307.jpg

 

Now I had to have a little think about the guards doors.  On the diagram it is not clear but it appears that the left hand door panel is shorter than the right but larger than an ordinary door panel.  The rightt hand panel is not the width of the window.  I looked at my Ratio guards doors, but as 'one should not model a model', (sorry), I looked in Russell.  It appears that all leftt hand doors have the handle and so have short panels, and the right hand ones have the panel the width of the window.  (The only pictures I have of the E25, i.e., the one above and on Penrhos are not clear enough to see.)  So that is what I have gone with.

 

561974353_E2529.jpg.0f6250a8d0deec36e75c40cf71d6aac0.jpg

 

I have now begun to line up the lower panels as I have with the others.  You will notice they are the same shape now.  I took the first one from the first door and copied it, replaced the other door ones with it then once I had corrected the width of the other panels laid it over the end to get the shape and height right.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking. 

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On 06/04/2019 at 22:54, ChrisN said:

  The rightt hand panel is not the width of the window.  I looked at my Ratio guards doors, but as 'one should not model a model', (sorry), I looked in Russell.  It appears that all leftt hand doors have the handle and so have short panels, and the right hand ones have the panel the width of the window.  (The only pictures I have of the E25, i.e., the one above and on Penrhos are not clear enough to see.)  So that is what I have gone with.

 

Looks really good, Chris. I presume the left door being different means that when you come to do the other side, you can't just copy and mirror the side for the double doors (as well as the other doors).

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Clerestory windows. I believe these were originally glass, probably the "dimpled" or frosted glass as later used in toplights. In later life they were often panelled over (as happened to some toplight coaches as well).

 

Nigel

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1 hour ago, NCB said:

Clerestory windows. I believe these were originally glass, probably the "dimpled" or frosted glass as later used in toplights. In later life they were often panelled over (as happened to some toplight coaches as well).

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

Thank you.  I thought they might be frosted.  The pictures that you tend to see are later anyway, so I shall go with frosted,  I did have the right stuff to do it but I shall have to look for it.

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Hi Chris, 

 

I just stumbled across your Silhouette work which is most enjoyable.

 

In a similar vein I have also been using the Portrait for a coach build and have found it an extremely useful tool.  Although I've posted this image on the parish site before ( sorry ) I thought it may be of some encouragement to others.

 

IMG_4945.jpg.6bd06e4270bf4ca7c3ab73b8ff92b85d.jpg

 

Now nearly completed and a good addition to my proposed 7mm layout ( one day !!! ).

 

G

 

p.s. due to the light weight construction using plasticard I have designed the internal seats with an open base. It was a preconceived thought so as to place some weight inside without it being obvious, thereby allowing the underside details to remain unhindered. 

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10 hours ago, bgman said:

Hi Chris, 

 

I just stumbled across your Silhouette work which is most enjoyable.

 

In a similar vein I have also been using the Portrait for a coach build and have found it an extremely useful tool.  Although I've posted this image on the parish site before ( sorry ) I thought it may be of some encouragement to others.

 

IMG_4945.jpg.6bd06e4270bf4ca7c3ab73b8ff92b85d.jpg

 

Now nearly completed and a good addition to my proposed 7mm layout ( one day !!! ).

 

G

 

p.s. due to the light weight construction using plasticard I have designed the internal seats with an open base. It was a preconceived thought so as to place some weight inside without it being obvious, thereby allowing the underside details to remain unhindered. 

 

Very nice.  I do like the way the cutter as it has several layers gives depth to the panelling.  Are the bits on the end separate pieces not made from the cutter?  Are the compartment dividers from the cutter, and if so how thick are they and are they laminated?  What is the thickness of the side laminates?  Finally, how did you do the hinges? 

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On 30/03/2019 at 22:17, ChrisN said:

I am fairly certain that I have only seen this on GWR cooaches.  The MSLR coaches do not appear to have this  although they have beading on the door which may disguise it and the images I have seen on the internet cannot be enlarged to be certain.  The other MSLR, (Mid Suffolk Light Railway),  has some ex Met Railway coaches and these have beading down the handle side.  Looking at pictures of Cambrian Railway coaches I cannot see them. 

 

Seems to be a standard design feature on wood-panelled carriages with no beading below waist level - MR, LNWR, and LMS carriages have them.

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It is probably about time I replied to this thread.  Thank you to everyone who is now following and for the ratings.  Those of you who have followed the thread for some time will have met Mr Price.  I can tell you he is not a happy man and may make an appearance to say so in the not too distant future.  However, I will press on with the coach.

 

Usually I do the sides and the ends before taking it all to another file and tidying it up.  As you have all been watching I just took the side and tidied it, so now to the end.

 

The Clerestory roof is an arc and so is the frame under it, so I used the arc drawing tool.

 

1476991376_E257.jpg.07ff9fabd6a8c23f8043abc09ce0cd40.jpg

 

How do you know the right radius?  Trial and error.

 

1474964885_E258.jpg.d22f9ecb02ac30cf49a5107278c93835.jpg

 

This is what it looks like without background.  Once drawn you can shorten it to fit if you need to and you can alter the curve in the middle a bit.   Sorry there will be lots of pictures.

 

I then draw to round cornered rectangles.

 

1467239265_E259.jpg.ee9000415738cac45c29e9bb5e62017e.jpg

 

Which look like this

 

1910057825_E2510.jpg.970b6b44609e6fefe95f86dfcd842f06.jpg

 

What I would normally do is use the eraser and then add them together but sometime about then I tripped over the 'Weld' tool which would add the two rectangles into one and then I only needed to erase and add the curve at the top.

 

So having discovered 'Weld' I attacked the top end panel.

 

602380421_E2531.jpg.b20da666bbb768dd237116fff4d6acd6.jpg

 

On the right the components, two curvy cornered rectangles and an ellipse, on the left it welded together.

 

I have realised of course that I have never shown the end in close up.

 

1551403970_E2538.jpg.8fa8ceb9ec7c091d479ac645ca336bab.jpg

 

You may not be able to see but the clerestory panel is in place, the top panels are as well, the right hand one being a mirror copy of the left, and the two windows.  They were copied from the coach, all three parts linked and the width adjusted.  The right one is just a copy of the left one so I know they are the same size.  I have found that drawings are good but in the old days no one actually measured from the drawing, they used the measurements on the drawing so who cared if it was slightly different as you went down.  I need to put a rectangle under the top line to form the outer section.  I have also drawn the outside of the end, but that is a story in itself, so rather than prolong the agony I will post that later and say,

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

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2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Those of you who have followed the thread for some time will have met Mr Price.  I can tell you he is not a happy man and may make an appearance to say so in the not too distant future.  However, I will press on with the coach.

 

My guess is that he has a thing or two to say about you giving so much time and attention to GWR matters :lol:

 

Nice work on the drawings as ever.

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Perhaps you need to point out to Mr Price that when these through carriages from far parts start to bring lots of tourists to Traeth Mawr the station will have to be upgraded, so he will get a pay rise.

jonathan

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2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Perhaps you need to point out to Mr Price that when these through carriages from far parts start to bring lots of tourists to Traeth Mawr the station will have to be upgraded, so he will get a pay rise.

jonathan

 

Jonathan,

He has already been promoted to a Silver Band Station Master, so he is quite aware of what the extra revenue to his station will mean.  I think it is more that he thinks the GWR should build their own coaches.  I need to track him down so he can explain.

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23 hours ago, ChrisN said:

It is probably about time I replied to this thread.  Thank you to everyone who is now following and for the ratings.  Those of you who have followed the thread for some time will have met Mr Price.  I can tell you he is not a happy man and may make an appearance to say so in the not too distant future.  However, I will press on with the coach.

 

Usually I do the sides and the ends before taking it all to another file and tidying it up.  As you have all been watching I just took the side and tidied it, so now to the end.

 

The Clerestory roof is an arc and so is the frame under it, so I used the arc drawing tool.

 

1476991376_E257.jpg.07ff9fabd6a8c23f8043abc09ce0cd40.jpg

 

How do you know the right radius?  Trial and error.

 

 

 

One thing to remember is that on something’s the GWR was extremely consistent.  The second is that several people have been through GWR coach drawings (not the diagrams) and noted these dimensions and published them in HMRS journal and most recently in MRC annual 1981 by the legionary John Lewis.

 

For this design the under the roof radius of the clerestory is 5’6.

 

I’m not sure how many GWR coaches you’re planning, but when I started drawing GWR coaches many years ago the first thing I did was to create several drawings, one for each style, based upon these dimensions.

 

1634994724_DeanCoachSides.jpeg.ca80e5c3e95af33d8beed06c5390d8a1.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

One thing to remember is that on something’s the GWR was extremely consistent.  The second is that several people have been through GWR coach drawings (not the diagrams) and noted these dimensions and published them in HMRS journal and most recently in MRC annual 1981 by the legionary John Lewis.

 

For this design the under the roof radius of the clerestory is 5’6.

 

I’m not sure how many GWR coaches you’re planning, but when I started drawing GWR coaches many years ago the first thing I did was to create several drawings, one for each style, based upon these dimensions.

 

1634994724_DeanCoachSides.jpeg.ca80e5c3e95af33d8beed06c5390d8a1.jpeg

 

Thank you.  I have seen these diagrams before but had forgotten them.  if by the 'Eves' it means the panel width at the top my panel as drawn is near enough 7" so I assume that it is about right.

 

When you say the roof radius do you mean, in the diagram below, the red or green radius?

 

 

1126746884_E25a.jpg.14c6a389856e0b9a11fb6c874ed847b0.jpg

 

The red radius to match the drawing is over 31mm or nearly 8'.

 

I am not sure how many coaches I will make.  There are at least three each day from Paddington and it appears from the GWR Through Coach Workings that the Cambrian only did Monday, Wednesday and Friday to Aberystwyth not Barmouth or Pwllheli so I will need double the amount.  Also I understand that the GWR ran trains on a joint line from Manchester Exchange and Birkenhead so there may be more from there.  What I was hoping to do was take parts from this file and use them on the next, as hopefully, they will not be too dissimilar.  It was not a great success transferring from a G41 but the eves look larger.  Having been reminded by your post of the differences I will take that into account when I start the next one.

 

I have to admit that I am often on your site looking at the photo of the E25, and others, because as I draw it makes me ask questions and your image is the only one of an E25 I can find.  (Excluding the other one which I keep looking at of the accident, again most helpful.)

 

Two questions.  I have only seen images of this side.  Is the other side exactly the same, do you know, except with the Guard's window frosted out as it is the toilet?

 

Also, the diagram shows a gas top over one side of the roof.  The picture appears to show three, one over the guard's compartment, one over a door to a Third Class compartment, and one over a partition.  Are the last two gas tops, or ventilation of some sort?

 

Thank you again

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22 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Thank you.  I have seen these diagrams before but had forgotten them.  if by the 'Eves' it means the panel width at the top my panel as drawn is near enough 7" so I assume that it is about right.

 

When you say the roof radius do you mean, in the diagram below, the red or green radius?

 

 

1126746884_E25a.jpg.14c6a389856e0b9a11fb6c874ed847b0.jpg

 

The red radius to match the drawing is over 31mm or nearly 8'.

 

I am not sure how many coaches I will make.  There are at least three each day from Paddington and it appears from the GWR Through Coach Workings that the Cambrian only did Monday, Wednesday and Friday to Aberystwyth not Barmouth or Pwllheli so I will need double the amount.  Also I understand that the GWR ran trains on a joint line from Manchester Exchange and Birkenhead so there may be more from there.  What I was hoping to do was take parts from this file and use them on the next, as hopefully, they will not be too dissimilar.  It was not a great success transferring from a G41 but the eves look larger.  Having been reminded by your post of the differences I will take that into account when I start the next one.

 

I have to admit that I am often on your site looking at the photo of the E25, and others, because as I draw it makes me ask questions and your image is the only one of an E25 I can find.  (Excluding the other one which I keep looking at of the accident, again most helpful.)

 

Two questions.  I have only seen images of this side.  Is the other side exactly the same, do you know, except with the Guard's window frosted out as it is the toilet?

 

Also, the diagram shows a gas top over one side of the roof.  The picture appears to show three, one over the guard's compartment, one over a door to a Third Class compartment, and one over a partition.  Are the last two gas tops, or ventilation of some sort?

 

Thank you again

 

Yes, eaves refers to the panel above the window and 7" is the height between the mouldings

 

5'6 refers to the green radius.  The red radius is 48' as Miss Prism says, the ends of the red radius are 4' radius, centre is 3' above the coach floor and 1' 10.5" from the centre line.  The text that accompanies this table in the MRC Annual does say that some dimensions had to be estimated.  But 5'6 vs 8' is a big difference.  In HMRS Journal Vol8/9 there is this sketch, Body VI is for E25:

IMG_0785.JPG.6b167bf669983d6207c528786681ce0a.JPG

 

You will have much more sucess transferring dimensions if you select another Lewis Class CAE7N design.  Diagram G41 is a much earlier design (CAA9N) and the sides are 3" shorter.  Lewis Class CAE7N coaches were built over a 3 year period from 1887 to 1890.  Fortunately for you the heights of all of the side components didn't change in 1890 when the Lewis Class changed to CEE7N and CEE7W, only the clerstory profile changed.  Lewis Class CEE7N & CEE7W coaches were built until 1903 so there are many designs to choose from.

 

The other side of the coach is a mirror image except the frosted window as you note.

 

The bottom row of red squares is mounting blocks for the destination boards and are visible in the photos.  On the other side there is ONE gas lamp on the main roof above the toilet.  The end drawing is the view of the left hand end as shows this gas lamp.

Edited by Penrhos1920
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Penrhos,

Thank you, I will have to digest all that.

 

To be honest I have made the centre flat, including the base of the clerestory.  It looks flat on the drawing and I am not sure I could draw an arc of that size.  Also I am not sure it would notice in 4mm.

 

Thank you again.

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48 foot radius over a chord of 2 feet would give a versine of...

 

the half angle is inv tan 1/48 = 1.19 degrees.

 

cos 1.19 = 0.9997

 

multiply (1-0.9997) by the radius to get the gap between the chord and the arc, which is 0.0104133 feet, (real) or 0.042 mm (4mm scale). 

 

I don't think it’ll show.  :)

 

best

simon

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14 hours ago, Simond said:

48 foot radius over a chord of 2 feet would give a versine of...

 

the half angle is inv tan 1/48 = 1.19 degrees.

 

cos 1.19 = 0.9997

 

multiply (1-0.9997) by the radius to get the gap between the chord and the arc, which is 0.0104133 feet, (real) or 0.042 mm (4mm scale). 

 

I don't think it’ll show.  :)

 

best

simon

 

Simon,

Thank you.  I suppose I could have done that but I am sure whoever did the drawing just drew it flat.  Misaligning the laminates is more than that. (That is makes a bigger difference.)

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