Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[drduncan]

Hi Chris,

Yes the suspension rods at each end of the bogie are fixed to the solebars.  I’d cut them just below the solebar (or just above the bogie) and that should give the movement needed.

Duncan

[Miss Prism]

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/LPhotos/C4.jpg

 

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/LPhotos/C4.jpg

 

 

Oh! That's the prototype for my Triang-chopped C10 where I cut in the wrong place and ended up with one compartment too few. Am I to believe the dimension of 7'6" over panels?

[Miss Prism]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Am I to believe the dimension of 7'6" over panels?

 

No. The 7'6" and 8' lateral dimensions should be transposed on that particular drawing. (An error on the original T L Jones drawing. The other drawings are ok.)

 

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/LPhotos/C4.jpg

 

 

Thank you for this.  I have found on the Pehrhos site that the images enlarge but I cannot open them on a separate page.

[Miss Prism]

8 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I have found on the Pehrhos site that the images enlarge but I cannot open them on a separate page.

 

Assuming you have a 2-button mouse, right-click on the image and then select 'Open image in new tab' from the dropdown.

 

[ChrisN]

4 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Assuming you have a 2-button mouse, right-click on the image and then select 'Open image in new tab' from the dropdown.

 

 

Thank you.  On the drop down I do not have, "Open image in new tab".  On Firefox though I do have "Copy Image Link" which I can then put in a new tab.

[Miss Prism]

Ah yes. Similar function. Typically quaint and cumbersome Firefox.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Were these dimensions standardised on the Dean 6'4" ?

 

 

 

(The Dean 8'6" and 10' were different, having double buckets, and I think the scroll iron was joggled inwards - 2.5" offset ????)

 

[ChrisN]

7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Were these dimensions standardised on the Dean 6'4" ?

 

 

 

(The Dean 8'6" and 10' were different, having double buckets, and I think the scroll iron was joggled inwards - 2.5" offset ????)

 

 

On the drawing I have the width of the suspension rods is 7' 2" and the other width is 5' 01/2".  I cannot say if they were standardised.

 

I am not sure how the bogie had rotational movement if the suspension rods were fixed to the footboards.

 

[Simond]

The scroll irons were attached to the solebars, and pointed down past the bogie.  They are joined by a cross beam under each end of the bogie (or between the wheels on the longer wheelbase units).  The "buckets" contain a spiral spring, one end of which supports the cross beam, and the other end has a flexible joint to a link.  The link is flexibly attached to the bogie. 

 

Thus each bogie has two pairs of links (effectively ball-jointed at the ends) connecting the bogie to the spring.  The bogie can thus articulate by swinging around the links.

 

there are some pictures of the beams and scroll irons on the steam railmotor power bogie at the bottom of this link

https://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/zrailmotor93/archivenews_09/archivenews_09.html

 

these are buffer springs but I believe the Dean suspension springs were very similar

 

 

hth

Simon

 

[ChrisN]

7 hours ago, Simond said:

The scroll irons were attached to the solebars, and pointed down past the bogie.  They are joined by a cross beam under each end of the bogie (or between the wheels on the longer wheelbase units).  The "buckets" contain a spiral spring, one end of which supports the cross beam, and the other end has a flexible joint to a link.  The link is flexibly attached to the bogie. 

 

Thus each bogie has two pairs of links (effectively ball-jointed at the ends) connecting the bogie to the spring.  The bogie can thus articulate by swinging around the links.

 

there are some pictures of the beams and scroll irons on the steam railmotor power bogie at the bottom of this link

https://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/zrailmotor93/archivenews_09/archivenews_09.html

 

these are buffer springs but I believe the Dean suspension springs were very similar

 

 

hth

Simon

 

 

Simon,

Thank you.  This is very informative, and interesting.

[ChrisN]

Well,  I had intended to do my looking for a picture before I posted as I did not want to go online and basically say, "Could someone look up a picture for me?"  Thank you all that have responded.  So now to show you the little that I have done.

 

 

 

This is the diagram I have and first off I drew a lie between the wheel centres and reduced the size to a scale 6ft 4".  I then tried to draw the lines of the springs.  I tried arcs of a large radius which sort of worked but was quite difficult.  I then realised that the diagram was not level.  It was not a lot off, but just enough.  The answer was to rotate it slightly which I did having drawn a line which I knew was level.  (Level is a hand waving term which means that the straight line o the top of the diagram is parallel to a straight line drawn by the program, which is in turn parallel to the top and at right angles to the sides.)

 

Having done this with all the lines I then drew the end lines between them.  I was not happy as one side of the spring diagram is not the same as the other.  I then drew a line to find the centre, deleted part of one side and then copied the other side, mirrored it and stuck them both together.  To do such things I had to move the diagram out of the way, which was not that difficult as it was easy to fit it back with the springs afterwards.

 

I was still not happy, so tried doing the drawing again using ellipses.  Again having to cut in have, copy, mirror and stick back together.

 

 

 

Having satisfied myself with the springs I then drew a circle at either end, and grouped it all together.  I then drew the rectangle in the middle, deleted the lines inside it, and grouped them.  The easy part was to draw lines around the diagram, round cornered rectangles around the strapping, and for the axle box an round cornered rectangle topped with an ordinary rectangle welded together as shown above.  Circles for where the axles will go.

 

As you can see, I did one side, copied mirrored and they were then joined.

 

 

 

Of course the top rectangle can be removed having see the photos and other diagram, which is what I suspected.  I need to separate these out into layers, but there is a couple of issues.

 

The strapping does not appear to be attached to anything so cannot be part of a layer, and I am not sure it would be possible to cut them and add them afterwards.  I shall think about this one.

 

On JCL's thread he cut holes where the rivets are.  I have not read further down but I assume that he must have put rodding in them and cut them off to make the rivet 'bumps'.  I am not sure I want to do that.  The suspension rods and buckets need to be added afterwards, so I will have to think what I am going to use for them.

 

Well, if after all this time you have been, thanks for looking.

[MikeTrice]

No, he left them recessed, however further down the topic I showed how to produce pressed rivets:

 

[ChrisN]

37 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

No, he left them recessed, however further down the topic I showed how to produce pressed rivets:

 

 

Mike,

Thank you.  I would have looked eventually.  I am afraid I am reading the bare minimum at the moment, which is not helpful.  Your idea is very clever with the extra on the side.  Did the second layer have the holes through which you pressed the scriber?

[MikeTrice]

Correct. From memory I spotted where they were to go and drilled them through rather than cut them.

[MikeOxon]

10 hours ago, Simond said:

The scroll irons were attached to the solebars, and pointed down past the bogie.  They are joined by a cross beam under each end of the bogie (or between the wheels on the longer wheelbase units).  The "buckets" contain a spiral spring, one end of which supports the cross beam, and the other end has a flexible joint to a link.  The link is flexibly attached to the bogie. 

 

Thus each bogie has two pairs of links (effectively ball-jointed at the ends) connecting the bogie to the spring.  The bogie can thus articulate by swinging around the links.

.........................

 

 

 

Dean appeared to be attached to the idea of a 'centreless' bogie.  This may have been a reaction to the too-rigid designs by his predecessors, such as the ball and socket articulation on Gooch's early bogie engines.  Some of Dean's early designs went too far, especially on some of his locomotives that had too little sense of direction. Problems arose from the supporting bars bending, if overstressed by lateral movements of the bogie.  He was always keen to experiment and eventually produced very successful designs, which gave a smooth ride to the carriages.

[JCL]

 

1 hour ago, MikeTrice said:

Correct. From memory I spotted where they were to go and drilled them through rather than cut them.

 

Mike's idea worked incredibly well. You can see the chassis layers in the cutting diagram below. Even using a compass point, it doesn't take long before you can apply just the right amount of pressure without going through the plastic.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by JCL

[ChrisN]

21 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

Correct. From memory I spotted where they were to go and drilled them through rather than cut them.

 

20 hours ago, JCL said:

 

 

Mike's idea worked incredibly well. You can see the chassis layers in the cutting diagram below. Even using a compass point, it doesn't take long before you can apply just the right amount of pressure without going through the plastic.

 

 

Thank you both.  I shall now work out how to apply this to my layering, which should be straight forward but I just need to spend a few minutes looking at it.

[ChrisN]

20 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

 

Dean appeared to be attached to the idea of a 'centreless' bogie.  This may have been a reaction to the too-rigid designs by his predecessors, such as the ball and socket articulation on Gooch's early bogie engines.  Some of Dean's early designs went too far, especially on some of his locomotives that had too little sense of direction. Problems arose from the supporting bars bending, if overstressed by lateral movements of the bogie.  He was always keen to experiment and eventually produced very successful designs, which gave a smooth ride to the carriages.

 

Did someone say that the 6ft bogies were prone to 'hunt'? Your explanation of how they worked would explain why.  It is interesting to follow these developments at a time when you could try things out to get it right.  I am not sure how that would go down today

[MikeOxon]

32 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Did someone say that the 6ft bogies were prone to 'hunt'? ...........................

John Gibson in his book 'Great Western Locomotive Design' really lets rip on Dean's bogie. (Gibson did enjoy a good conspiracy theory, so has to be read with caution) 

Of Dean's engine No.1 he writes "This centreless bogie was hardly controlled at all.  The spring hangers allowed it to move in any direction ...  Apart from lack of control, the bogie had a very short wheelbase.  This is always a bad feature, as such a bogie tends to take up an angle and proceed 'crabwise'. 

Gibson goes on to describe Dean's No.9, which had two such bogies and, according to him, never stayed on the rails long enough to get as far as the main line, from the shed.  To be fair, Dean eventually designed an excellent bogie for his 4-2-2 and later 4-4-0 locomotives.

[ChrisN]

For various reasons I have bought an Electrotren 2-4-0.  I have found out two things.  1) In the last few weeks since I last ran it the power has decided not to transfer to the other boards from the one where the power is connected.  I 'just' need some time to look at the wires., but I do not want to take it down unless I really have to.  2) There is no obvious way of taking the chassis off the loco.  If anyone knows how to do it I would be grateful.  A Google search for its manual, (it is Spanish perhaps it should be Manuel ) has not found anything.  It may just be a clip fit but I am loathe to try it unless I know.

 

In other news there has been some progress on the bogie, but not enough to post.

[MikeOxon]

On 03/10/2019 at 18:53, ChrisN said:

...............  A Google search for its manual, (it is Spanish perhaps it should be Manuel ) has not found anything.  It may just be a clip fit but I am loathe to try it unless I know.................

I note that Lendons list a number of Electrotren Service Sheets at http://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/?button=button2&servicesheets=none

Even if yours is not among them, it may give clues as to how their models are assembled.

[corneliuslundie]

Gosh, I used to shop at Lendons when I was a boy. Glad to see it is still going. It was excellent.

I distinctly remember the wooden cabinet holding the small Meccano components. The shop also stocked Bayko - -and bikes of course.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Yes an update, and yes I have done a little modelling.  

 

I looked at the wiring of my layout and proved that it was not the easy solution as I suspected.  I changed the connectors between two boards so I know they are fine.  When they are not connected the first board has power, when they are, the loco will half turn the motor then stop.  I assume that I have a short somewhere.  On my old Triang controller a little button would pop up if there was a short but not so on the more modern one.  I have an idea of the suspect but I decided to leave it for another day.

 

I then looked an my Electrotren 2-4-0.  Under a light there were two obvious plastic ends in the tanks.  Yes! That is how it was fixed on.  I did look at the service sheets Mike, but they did not look that helpful for the locos they were made for and gave no idea how the body came off.

 

Once off it was clear that the motor is upright and the gears are at the side overhanging the chassis so not at all helpful to act as a chassis for the 0-4-2 I was thinking of.  I may have to see if someone has converted one of these to a motor that is laying flat.  I will then have to change everything will have paid just for the chassis block.  In the meantime if I can add some tension lock couplings I at least have another loco.

 

Finally, under the tanks it had 'Made pain'  with a hole between the two words.  I could not agree more.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.