Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Simond]

A little something in my head says 2’ 3”.  
 

I don’t know why I think that, I’d have to go looking through the book collection, and I don’t know where to start...

 

but 9 panels at 2’ 3” would be 20’ 3” if I can still count in old money.  Probably add a further 3” for the final frame.
 

atb

Simon

[ChrisN]

34 minutes ago, Simond said:

A little something in my head says 2’ 3”.  
 

I don’t know why I think that, I’d have to go looking through the book collection, and I don’t know where to start...

 

but 9 panels at 2’ 3” would be 20’ 3” if I can still count in old money.  Probably add a further 3” for the final frame.
 

atb

Simon

 

Simon,

That would work, although as the door is double it would give a door width of 4ft 6" which is quite large considering on the Thirds the doors were 1ft 9", giving double doors on the brakes 3ft 6", and on the composites I think they were always 2ft, or there abouts.

[MikeOxon]

As we have discussed through PMs, my feeling is that your van is somewhat shorter - probably around 17'. 

 

I have modelled an early GWR brake van, which was 20' 6" long but that had more panels than yours.  Cropping my design to represent the panels visible on your coach suggests a length around 17'.

 

I realise your van is not of GWR provenance but many of these early carriages were built by specialist firms, such as Melling, Shackleford, and many others.  As a result there was a lot of commonality between the carriages supplied to different railway companies.

 

Mike

[ChrisN]

Modelling is happening, and when I have moved on a little more and taken some photos I will show what I have been up to.  Do not hold your breath as it is not very exciting.  

 

I have been having more thoughts about the compartments.  I found out from this thread in a post by buffalo of this parish r=the following:- 

 

"Michael Harris, Great Western coaches from 1890 has:

 

Current in 1890-1895: 1st Crimson Plush, 2nd and 3rd Rep, smoking compts in leather

c1896: 1st 'Fancy' moquette or blue cloth, 2nd velvet terry or rep, 3rd fawn rep, smoking leather

c1900: 1st dark green cloth or leather, 2nd brown and white star motif moquette, 3rd dark red and white star, smoking leather."

 

Now I have found that Rep is a type of material, so I am assuming all compartments in 1890-1895 were red seats, just with different material.  What I do not know is, what colour was the leather in smoking compartments, brown or black, and how many were there in four wheel coaches.  I have looked through the diagrams I have and 'Smoking Compartments' and 'Ladies Only' were in the drawings of composites fron the early to middle 1890s but there is nothing similar in the drawings of the four wheel coaches.

 

So should I consider one smoking compartment per Third Class coach?  That is 1 of 5 and 2x 1 of 4.  In the Composite?  No smoking compartments or one smoking and one non smoking First, and the same for the Seconds?  (I have seen nothing about smoking compartments on the Cambrian so I will not have this problem.)

 

As for Ladies Compartments...………..   (I am not going to have tiny little labels on the window but I shall have some compartments with only women in them.)

 

Any answers will be welcome.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Mikkel]

Chris, I have the Harris volume but while he gives fairly detailed info he does not seem to describe the colour of the leather.

 

Will send you a PM with his overview table of coach interior colours and materials. 

 

PS: I wonder if the leather in the smoking compartments were in fact the same colour as that of the other seats in the respective class? I see that Paul Bambrick has a news item on green leather seats for smoking compartments:

 

http://bambrickstudio.co.uk/latest-news-2/ 

 

(scroll about a third down to the 3D image, or search the page for leather)

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Mikkel

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Chris, I have the Harris volume but while he gives fairly detailed info he does not seem to describe the colour of the leather.

 

Will send you a PM with his overview table of coach interior colours and materials. 

 

PS: I wonder if the leather in the smoking compartments were in fact the same colour as that of the other seats in the respective class? I see that Paul Bambrick has a news item on green leather seats for smoking compartments:

 

http://bambrickstudio.co.uk/latest-news-2/ 

 

(scroll about a third down to the 3D image, or search the page for leather)

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  I had not considered the leather being the same colour as the other seats of the same class.  I had assumed that they would not just rely on a sign on the window.  If that is the case I will not worry as I do not have any tiny signs, although as the roofs will be removeable I could always put them in later.

 

I am too used to seat colours defining the coach class.  I got on a Cross Country train looking for an unreserved seat and found one in a coach where the seats were blue.  It took me a while to convince myself that I was not in a First Class coach as 'Standard Class', (must not call them Second Class today!) are usually red and First Class blue.

 

It would seem though in GWR 1890 that they relied on the door sign, and interior wood colour.  The Cambrian had different wood and different seat colours.

[MikeOxon]

I have a book by K.M.Beck "The Greatness of the Great Western" which shows (p.103) a painting by Hamilton Ellis of the interior of a GWR 'Smoking' clerestory carriage, with seats of buttoned leather.  Unfortunately the illustration is only B/W but if anyone has a colour version of the painting it may be of interest.  I realise it would only be the artist's interpretation.  For some reason, I have always imagined these leather seats to be green but have no idea where I gained that idea, so nothing authoritative, I'm afraid.

 

Mike

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, MikeOxon said:

I have a book by K.M.Beck "The Greatness of the Great Western" which shows (p.103) a painting by Hamilton Ellis of the interior of a GWR 'Smoking' clerestory carriage, with seats of buttoned leather.  Unfortunately the illustration is only B/W but if anyone has a colour version of the painting it may be of interest.  I realise it would only be the artist's interpretation.  For some reason, I have always imagined these leather seats to be green but have no idea where I gained that idea, so nothing authoritative, I'm afraid.

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike,

I have Googled for it but with no luck.  If it is B/W then perhaps I shall have to leave it grey.

[ChrisN]

I have threatened to report some modelling so here it is, but one final word on Smoking Compartments.  As I was searching again for Hamilton Ellis' painting of a one I came across another picture and the caption pointed out that there was a ventilation grille in the ceiling.  Now I remember from somewhere, (* citation needed), that smoking compartments had these ventilations and they went out through the roof.  Now as I have no evidence of them in four wheel coaches I will not pursue this any further.

 

I have been working on the T20 and the Stroudly Brake Third, but the work on the T20 has mainly been remedial apart from trying to fit the roof.  You may or may not know I try and have my roofs removable.  I do this by gluing a piece of plasticard at either end of the roof at right angles to make the roof push fit.  It works quite well in 009, and for short coaches but I think I will struggle for the longer ones.  I may do that but glue the ends in place with 'Tacky Glue'.  There is no point in having all the inside painted and with people if you can never see them, and cannot get inside if the glazing falls off.

 

The coach.

 

 

 

No, not an invasion of crabs.  The coach floor is made up of three sections of MDF.  The W irons are made up of the upright, and into this goes a top hat bearing which pokes through the upright.  The axlebox is a small square of MDF with a hole in it which is glued round the bearing and on top of that is a square of cardboard.  This is all superglued in place.  In the last post about this there were two W irons in place.  In the instructions it says to fit the wheels as you place the opposing W iron.  This is not too difficult as the slot and fixing are well matched so go together easily.  Later in the instructions it says not to fit the wheels and to push the axleboxes apart to squeeze them in but the MDF is too hard to do that, (I tried to get them out), so perhaps that was written when the floor and bits were done in cardboard.  Having got the wheels on then the next two layers of the floor had to be glued on using PVA.  The issue then is do you sit and hold them as they are long and need?   No, these clamps I think were Homebase or Wilko, and were cheap, which is why the pads on the end fall off quite readily, but did the job and held it in place until dry.

 

 

 

The chassis now has the springs attached.  They were quite fragile and I managed to break one, but with enough PVA they are back.

 

Coming to the back with the ducket.  It has two sets of beading.  The large one at the top I put glue on the ducket and then offered up the beading before cutting it out of the sprue.  I thought this was a good idea as I felt it would hold the beading until it was a least until it was fixed, if not completely dry.  I then cut it out the sprue.  I then did the same with the small one at the bottom.  Almost disaster.  I tried to cut it out and it did not come easily.  I had managed to glue the sprue to the end as well.  Fortunately I managed to cut it off and get the beading into a sort of place where it should be.  You can see that is is not brilliant.

 

Finally on this image, I put the compartment dividers in the body.

 

 

Last picture.  The seats are made of card.  I cut out a long strip, 10mm wide and scored down the middle making the seat 5mm wide.  It was then cut into compartment wide lengths.  PVA was smeared on one side of a length and then it was placed on a compartment, then pushed so that it was in line ithe the bottom of the compartment divider.  One seat per compartment and left for a day until they dried.  The other side was then done.  

 

The back was then made by cutting a long strip 5mm wide, and another 2mm wide.  The 2mm strip was glued to the middle of the 5mm strip.  When it had dried the wider strip was curved around the narrow one.  It was then cut into strips and glued to the back of the compartments.  This should show the curved back to the seats.

 

Apart from the roof, which I shall talk about with the other ones is all I can do until I get some Shellac.  I asked my wife and she did not think going out for some Shellac counted as shopping for a necessity so it might take a while.  When I get that I shall glue it all together.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited August 4, 2022 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Do not gasp.  I have not done much and this brings me up to date.  I have also gone through my figures and found some sitting ones to make passengers for the Dolgelley Train and two for the Brake Coach.  A Lady's Maid and her assistant.  Last week it was sunny and our front garden is a suntrap  It was getting late but I decided to spray them with primer that afternoon rather than leave it until the next day.  I am glad I did as my wife decided to sit in the sun that day and I am sure she would not have been impressed with the smell of paint.  I also sprayed some Stadden children; I am not sure why but I might as well as they are off school with nothing to do.

 

 

 

Here are the roofs.  The bottom is the cardboard roof of the Stroudley.  I rolled it using a piece of inch dowel on the back of a mouse mat.  It worked really well, in fact it is the first time rolling something has gone the way I wanted it to.  I have tried it on brass for tumblehomes with some success and plastic for roofs with no success at all.  Having got it to the right curve I realised I had not marked it for the oil lamp tops so I laid it down and drew on it, not quite flattening it.  The centre is marked and the point over the window of each compartment.  This was drawn to cut the centre line using a set square.  I have since realised that I have marked the oil lamp top over the guards compartment in the wrong place but I can soon fix that.  When I get the shellac I will roll it again to get the curve, apply the shellac then add the oil lamp tops.  

 

You can see above the Stroudley the roofs for the T20 and T49.  You will notice that they do have the plastic spacers to fit the roofs in to the coach so that they are removable.

 

 

 

Here are the roofs placed on the coaches. The T49 does have 5 gas tops, 3 are from Dart castings and the two you may not see are original Ratio plastic ones.   You may notice that the fit is not wonderful.  When I come to finally fit them I will first try tacky glue so they are still removable, and if that fails, I will just glue them in place.

 

I have more to do on these, namely finishing the chassis, and vacuum pipes and couplings but the next thing has to be painting.  I am not sure how that will work out so I will probably do something else until I can paint.

 

Thank you all for your reactions to my posts, it is much appreciated.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited June 29, 2022 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Modelling continues, and I had hoped to bring you pictures of what I am doing having really come to the end of my coaches before painting them.  I will be doing pictures in a day or so.  Tonight I sat down to put the fittings on my GWR 645 class.  Now the other day I made up some Milliput and filled in some gaps on my Shire Scenes coaches, added some skirts and plaits to some young ladies and smeared some round the front of the 645.  Even though I had to have a break for tea I was able to finish it off before the lump went hard.  I felt very pleased with myself, until I went upstairs to find the fittings and found some more ladies in skirts far too short and two Preiser figures who are destined to be maids in the houses that I eventually build who need to have some proper clothing.  Sigh.

 

It was made worse tonight as I realised that I had not filled in the cracks on the tanks on the 645.  The 645 is a three section tank and the one I have is a five section tank.  'Not to worry', I thought I will score the new markings on the tank and fill the old ones later.  I looked at my collection of images, particularly this one, as it is side on.  It appears to have plates that do not give a smooth finish.  Although this is an 850 it shows what I mean quite well, but this 645 apart from being shiny also seems to have plates that are smooth together but separated by a line of rivets.

 

I then considered, 'How do you score around the tank?', in a straight line that is.  Now my wife hardly lets me loose with a scalpel as I seem to do more damage to myself than what I am cutting so maybe I ought to think again.  Well, I did think and I have two ideas.  The first one is to get lines of paper rivets, (do they come in lines you can stick down or do they need to be done separately?), and mark where the tanks are.  The second is to cut up paper and glue it down in the right place to give the panelling.  I am leaning towards the second but I wondered what everyone else thought.

 

More modelling pictures next time, promise.

 

Hope you are all keeping well and safe,

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Simond]

Chris,

 

Archer do rivet transfers in rows.  They are, unfortunately, ferociously expensive.  (I think I paid 17 quid for a sheet about the size of a postcard). I have not yet summoned up the courage to do my twin tank wagon, which requires a single row around each end and a double row longitudinally.  You’ll see it on my Porth Dinllaen thread when it happens...

 

there may be alternatives.

 

atb

S8mon

[ChrisN]

16 minutes ago, Simond said:

Chris,

 

Archer do rivet transfers in rows.  They are, unfortunately, ferociously expensive.  (I think I paid 17 quid for a sheet about the size of a postcard). I have not yet summoned up the courage to do my twin tank wagon, which requires a single row around each end and a double row longitudinally.  You’ll see it on my Porth Dinllaen thread when it happens...

 

there may be alternatives.

 

atb

S8mon

 

Simon,

Thank you.  I had heard of Archers but were not sure if they were strips or singles.  Looks like one vote for paper overlays.

[Mikkel]

Chris, they look like this. You can cut them as strips or singles as you like. In my experience they do need to be applied on primer or paint (not on bare metal), and sealed with Microsol.

 

[ChrisN]

8 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Chris, they look like this. You can cut them as strips or singles as you like. In my experience they do need to be applied on primer or paint (not on bare metal), and sealed with Microsol.

 

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  I have just found a supplier in this country so it may be transfers, but I will need Microsol as well.  I am not sure they will send Microsol in the post.

[MikeOxon]

In the past, I have used etched brass rivet strips.  they used to come from Mainly Trains but I see Wizrd Models now supply them - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/mt163/

 

Of course you do have the thickness of the strip but I thought they worked quite well on my GWR tilt wagon , shown below:

 

[ChrisN]

Mike,

Thank you.  It is not quite the look I am going for but it is worth a thought.  I have been looking for other things I could buy on their site but they have so much that it is not easy to navigate.

[NCB]

You can get Microsol from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Microscale-BMF128-Micro-Sol-solution/dp/B0006O9K5Q

 

Nigel

[ChrisN]

Thank you all.

 

I have gone for Archers Rivets, supplied by DCC Supplies.  They do not do Microsol, or GWR number plates.

 

Amazon do Microsol; I did not check for the other two.

 

Narrow Planet do the GWR number plates, but not the others so I ordered 772.  (The number that is, not 772 plates.)

 

Looking at the pictures again the earlier ones look more flat, but have the cross rivets in the same places as the later ones.  Interesting, perhaps I should put paper overlays on as well.

 

I have just remembered that I was going to see if anyone supplied handles.  Still, I can probably use staples.  Even worse I now notice I will need what looks like a brake handle, and of course hand rail nobs, and a whistle.  Oh well, never mind, and I thought I was nearly there.

 

There is a mountain in the Breacon Beacons, which you can see the top of as you walk up, but as you get closer another appears behind it, then another, then another and finally the top.  My modelling is often like that which is why when I finish something I get quite surprised.

 

EDIT:  P.S.  I really appreciate all your reactions, especially at the moment as when I get one I know that person is alive and well.  Thank you all, and keep safe.

Edited April 7, 2020 by ChrisN

[drduncan]

12 hours ago, ChrisN said:

which you can see the top of as you walk up, but as you get closer another appears behind it, then another, then another and finally the top

Sounds like every damn mountain I've had to drag my backside up.

[ChrisN]

With the hope of not boring everyone, I was looking for more pictures of the 645 and on gwr.org about Pannier tanks I found this picture.  (Thank you Mikkel and Russ.)  I must have seen it before but had forgotten it, but it has all the details I need for the rivets.  

 

I have found that Markits do the double whistle, vacuum pipes and handrail knobs.  One question about the knobs, I assume that I will need the short ones which are 1.6mm and have to drill a little hole to put them in.  (Sorry that is the sort of silly question I would ask the person selling them to me as I paid them, but it is going to be a long time until I can do that in person.)

 

Finally, the colour.  It will of course be holly green after many discussions about what Wolverhampton green actually was, but as I will need to go to a shop and say, 'Oo, that looks like it,' it may be a while.  Also I think below the frames they were ready brown, but again I will have to see.  (Mike Oxen  has put up some colour references so I will have to see if my colour charts give me a match.)

 

I wanted to take a picture of the body with the chimney etc in place but I have been so busy I did not have time.  Quieter next week hopefully.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Mikkel]

Chris, you had better not take only my word for it, but for what it's worth:

 

If the budget allows I try to have both short and medium sized handrail knobs available. I personally think that it looks good if the handrail sits fairly close to the tank, but also that it is not always practically possible to achieve this using the short knobs. On an ST, the curve of the tank may affect this. On other locos there is the smokebox to take into account: If it stands out from the boiler you will need short knobs for the smokebox side and medium ones for the boiler.

 

More experienced loco builders may think otherwise, this is just my experience.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Mikkel

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Chris, you had better not take only my word for it, but for what it's worth:

 

If the budget allows I try to have both short and medium sized handrail knobs available. I personally think that it looks good if the handrail sits fairly close to the tank, but also that it is not always practically possible to achieve this using the short knobs. On an ST, the curve of the tank may affect this. On other locos there is the smokebox to take into account: If it stands out from the boiler you will need short knobs for the smokebox side and medium ones for the boiler.

 

More experienced loco builders may think otherwise, this is just my experience.

 

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  I see two experienced loco builders agree with you.  This shall be more 'fun' than I thought, not only having to fit the handrail knobs but see which ones are best.

 

It would be nice to spray or paint it first but then I shall be waiting probably until we are finally released back into the wild.  Do you paint the brass or use a metal blackener?  I will have to see what is available.

 

In other news, this photo, which I thought showed a reverser I now think shows something behind the loco.

[Northroader]

Correction, one experienced loco builder and one bodger agree with him.

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  I see two experienced loco builders agree with you.  This shall be more 'fun' than I thought, not only having to fit the handrail knobs but see which ones are best.

 

It would be nice to spray or paint it first but then I shall be waiting probably until we are finally released back into the wild.  Do you paint the brass or use a metal blackener?  I will have to see what is available.

 

In other news, this photo, which I thought showed a reverser I now think shows something behind the loco.

 

Useful photo. I believe,  as you did originally, that that is the reverser.