Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Nick Gough]

In 1898 a serious accident occurred at Wellingborough station, on the Midland main line.

Due to a sloping platform an unattended mail trolley rolled across the platform, and fell onto the down main line shortly before an express was due to pass. This caused a derailment resulting in five fatalities:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=2927

 

https://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10446513#:~:text=Railway accident at Wellingborough%2C 1898 Derailment on the,fell from the station platform onto the track.

 

Subsequently, the inspecting officer recommended that station platforms should be either level or slope away from the track.

 

Would this have any bearing on how the platforms were raised on the Cambrian?

Many early(ier?) rebuilds ended up with a step down to enter the buildings.

 

Would your down platform have been added at a later date, from the main platform, by which time platform heights had increased?

 

I think you can justify leaving it as it is on those grounds.

[Nick Gough]

Wellingborough down platform can be seen in the background, of the linked photo, and the roof of the station signal box is just visible on the left.

 

Wernham Joseph Bassett-Lowke, the founder of the eponymous model engineering firm, visited and extensively photographed the accident scene, from his Northampton home. His photos are displayed at the local museum.

[Mikkel]

Interesting tale, Chris. I wonder how many historical models based on photos would turn out wrong if the builder could go back in time to actually visit the place!

 

Sounds like Nick has a good "excuse" for you to keep the current arrangement. The only issue is whether it will look odd of course, hopefully not.

 

15 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Cambrian platforms, or at least some, were built short, height not length that is.  They were then after a certain period made higher.

 

We did the same with our children. Seems to be a common thing. 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Mikkel

[ChrisN]

5 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

In 1898 a serious accident occurred at Wellingborough station, on the Midland main line.

Due to a sloping platform an unattended mail trolley rolled across the platform, and fell onto the down main line shortly before an express was due to pass. This caused a derailment resulting in five fatalities:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=2927

 

https://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10446513#:~:text=Railway accident at Wellingborough%2C 1898 Derailment on the,fell from the station platform onto the track.

 

Subsequently, the inspecting officer recommended that station platforms should be either level or slope away from the track.

 

Would this have any bearing on how the platforms were raised on the Cambrian?

Many early(ier?) rebuilds ended up with a step down to enter the buildings.

 

Would your down platform have been added at a later date, from the main platform, by which time platform heights had increased?

 

I think you can justify leaving it as it is on those grounds.

 

Nick,

Thank you.  That is very interesting.  I ought to know when the platforms were raised, but it is one of those pieces of information I have neglected to glean.  I read this week about extra platforms being put in but I am not sure if they mentioned at what height they were and were they the same as the opposite one.

 

A history lesson.  The Earl of Deudreath had a house built in the Naf Valley in the 1820s near the town of Pen-y Cilan.  This was called, with no imagination whatsoever, Ty Mawr.  (Big House.)  This explains why there was a fairly substantial station building here and it added weight to Traeth Mawr having its own separate station.  (Barmouth Council had said it was not needed and said the station name could be Barmouth (Alight for Traeth Mawr).  

 

His son, the current Earl, lived there almost from the time it was built but sold it in 1888, preferring the warm, society and large hospitals of London where he had another substantial house, and where he had lived  for at least six months of the year.  To everyone's horror, he sold it to an Englishman.  He was a young business man who had gone to school in Traeth Mawr, (Lord Darnley's College,) and when he found it on the market he jumped at the chance.  He offered below what the Earl was asking but the agent who was selling the house pointed out to the Earl that he had had it on the market for two years and this was the first offer, and it did need a fair amount of work doing on it.  He became known locally as 'The Young Englishman'.  

 

He had business interests in London and was a regular traveller between Traeth Mawr and Paddington.  He got fed up with getting as far as Barmouth on the through coach and having to change, for the one stop journey.  He approached the Cambrian and suggested that they continue on the through coaches to Traeth Mawr.  His argument was that Traeth Mawr was at least the size of Barmouth and not having the through coaches affected the number of tourists who came and if the numbers there increased to Traeth Mawr they would not necessarily decrease to Barmouth and the railway's revenue would increase.  He won his argument, with the backing of the local council and business community.  How much of his own money he put in to the extra sidings needed is not recorded and the Cambrian did it out of revenue not capital so , as someone once said about something else, if it was not cooking the books it was warming them up a little.  Mr Price was was appointed in 1890 found himself upgraded to a 'Silver Band' Station Master.

 

Now I know the station was built with a passing loop and had therefore assumed that from the start it had had down platform and shelter.  However there were other Cambrian stations that had a passing loop, sometimes not used for passing, and had a platform added later, or not at all.  I shall have to go back and reread my histories of Traeth Mawr to see if they can shed any light on the subject.  

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Interesting tale, Chris. I wonder how many historical models based on photos would turn out wrong if the builder could go back in time to actually visit the place!

 

Sounds like Nick has a good "excuse" for you to keep the current arrangement. The only issue is whether it will look odd of course, hopefully not.

 

 

We did the same with our children. Seems to be a common thing. 

 

 

If we did go back we might find that we are wrong, but fortunately we cannot so we are none the wiser!  

 

The photographers of old never really photographed what was important, only things like locos.  Platforms only get photographed with something else, like a train.  

 

My children not only kept changing height, but their ages as well, most confusing.  At least they only change one of the two now.

[NCB]

Original platform heights could vary a lot; here's a pic of Ynyslas:

https://www.railwaystationphotographs.co.uk/ynyslas-railway-station-photo-dovey-junction---borth-aberystwyth-line-3-27631-p.asp

Quite an extreme variation between original height and that of the extension, which I think was 1896, but probably that higher height had been established well before.

 

In the case of Traeth Mawr, if it was built as a new station some years after Barmouth, then the platforms could well have been built at the now standard height.

 

Nigel

[ChrisN]

31 minutes ago, NCB said:

Original platform heights could vary a lot; here's a pic of Ynyslas:

https://www.railwaystationphotographs.co.uk/ynyslas-railway-station-photo-dovey-junction---borth-aberystwyth-line-3-27631-p.asp

Quite an extreme variation between original height and that of the extension, which I think was 1896, but probably that higher height had been established well before.

 

In the case of Traeth Mawr, if it was built as a new station some years after Barmouth, then the platforms could well have been built at the now standard height.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

Thank you, that is brilliant.  Unless I am looking for something specific I will often not notice things.

 

Traeth Mawr was built at the opening of the Coast Line, but it would be hard to justify at that time two passing stations next to each other, so putting the down platform in in the early 1890s would not feel like show horning something into history that really would not have happened.

 

I am glad this will never be exhibited.

 

Spectator:  "Your platforms are of completely different heights.  That would never have happened in real life."

Me: "Ummm."

[MikeOxon]

Now you see the advantages of creating your own station.  If you had modelled Porthmadog and found the platform slope was incorrect, you wouldn't have been unable to rest until you had re-built it. 

 

At Traeth Mawr, we all know that the model is correct, by definition

[Nick Gough]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

I am glad this will never be exhibited.

 

Spectator:  "Your platforms are of completely different heights.  That would never have happened in real life."

Me: "Ummm."

I don't think you have anything to worry about Chris. There are several real life examples to support this.

[ChrisN]

Many months ago I said I was going to Didcot and promised to take a number of photos of details.  This all got a little lost for various reasons and then I looked at this photo I had taken:-

 

 

 

I looked at this and the at @Penrhos1920 site at the pre1905 livery and was surprised that the top part should be black.  I suppose the top is black if you think about it enough, but fortunately I do not get black thoughts very often.  While I was considering what to do @Edwardianposted his livery thread.  However, I do have some photos, even if they are mostly in the coaches.  I shall use two or three posts.  Please say if you are bored of the GWR and if this post is not sufficiently off topic.

 

Posters and seats

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not trust the seat covers. I think they are post 1896, very modern.

 

How about some curtains:-

 

 

 

 

 

Makes your eyes go funny looking at it.  Perhaps that is why I have never seen them modelled.

 

How about some signs?

 

 

 

Nice above the door.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And a 'No Spitting' sign.

 

 

 

 

They were common on buses when I was a lad, but disappeared as I got into my late teens.  I suppose they thought people had stopped spitting.  This sign appears to have worked.

 

 

 

 

There you have it.  More sometime later.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by ChrisN
Put in link to Edwardian's Thread

[Sasquatch]

Captivating Chris. That GWR livery is pure quality, reproducing it in 4mm looks challenging.

Tea for two 1/6: how times have changed, I bet you'd be lucky to get a plastic wrapped sandwich and a polystyrene cup o tea for under ten pounds these days!

What's so great about days gone is the lack of plastic. (We're huge fans of life without plastic, it's why we love Harry potter. I challenge anyone to spot one piece plastic in the entire saga). 

 

Regards Shaun, looking forward to your next set of photographs.

[corneliuslundie]

I wonder if that carriage was painted based on the diagram in "Great Western Way" latest edition page 73, which does show black along the very top of the side.

However, as pointed out in GWW, the diagram was prepared by BR(WR) in 1952 for a film company to represent the pre-1902 livery. However, GWW states "there is no guarantee that it was to be applied to an actual coach let alone one with mouldings" and it "may well have been intended for painting a flat" so giving the correct appearance rather than being an accurate representation of actual livery. Specifically, the book points out that the drawing shows the ventilators painted brown shaded to cream, whereas they may actually have been all cream, the shading representing shadows.

I am not sure that I shall struggle to add a 1 1/8 inch wide stripe of black (that's just over 1/3 mm!. Was it meant to represent the shadow caused by the slight overhang of the roof? (my thought, not GWW).

Oh, the fun of early liveries.

Jonathan 

[Nick Gough]

An interesting, and unusual, feature of that coach is the restored outside communication chord.

 

Pete Speller @K14 could probably clarify the queries over the livery and upholstery for 416.

[ChrisN]

25 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

An interesting, and unusual, feature of that coach is the restored outside communication chord.

 

Pete Speller @K14 could probably clarify the queries over the livery and upholstery for 416.

 

Nick,

I will post this, as it gives where it came from.

 

Michael Harris, Great Western coaches from 1890 has:

Current in 1890-1895: 1st Crimson Plush, 2nd and 3rd Rep, smoking compts in leather
c1896: 1st 'Fancy' moquette or blue cloth, 2nd velvet terry or rep, 3rd fawn rep, smoking leather
c1900: 1st dark green cloth or leather, 2nd brown and white star motif moquette, 3rd dark red and white star, smoking leather.

 

Someone must have posted it or sent it to me as I have it on a Word document.

 

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I wonder if that carriage was painted based on the diagram in "Great Western Way" latest edition page 73, which does show black along the very top of the side.

However, as pointed out in GWW, the diagram was prepared by BR(WR) in 1952 for a film company to represent the pre-1902 livery. However, GWW states "there is no guarantee that it was to be applied to an actual coach let alone one with mouldings" and it "may well have been intended for painting a flat" so giving the correct appearance rather than being an accurate representation of actual livery. Specifically, the book points out that the drawing shows the ventilators painted brown shaded to cream, whereas they may actually have been all cream, the shading representing shadows.

I am not sure that I shall struggle to add a 1 1/8 inch wide stripe of black (that's just over 1/3 mm!. Was it meant to represent the shadow caused by the slight overhang of the roof? (my thought, not GWW).

Oh, the fun of early liveries.

Jonathan 

 

 

Jonathan,

I was about to sit down with four fine felt tip pens to start on my GWR coach livery when I was encouraged/ politely told to do the scenery.  It will be challenging when I get back to it.

[Compound2632]

If you look at the genuine pre-1904 photos on Penhros' site, it is clear that the ventilators are not plain all-over cream.

 

I think one can also see black between the gold line on the beading and the cream panel, which is how Didcot paints them. This is simply because the moulding is painted black all over and then the gold line is applied to the shoulder of the moulding. This helps to define the gold against the cream.

[Nick Gough]

Changing the subject slightly - a view taken this afternoon:

 

My daughter, a teacher, is away with her class on an outward bound training week. They had just been rock climbing.

 

If you look closely, near the centre of the bridge, you can see the two cranes currently engaged on major renovation works:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58517351

[corneliuslundie]

While I agree that there are photos on the site which suggest strongly that the whole louvre was not painted cream, have a look at the U29 and the T28, to take two examples. The same variety seems present in the post 1923 livery.

This is after all the GWR!

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

35 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

Changing the subject slightly - a view taken this afternoon:

 

My daughter, a teacher, is away with her class on an outward bound training week. They had just been rock climbing.

 

If you look closely, near the centre of the bridge, you can see the two cranes currently engaged on major renovation works:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58517351

 

Nick, What a beautiful site.  We did not manage to walk over it this time.  The last time we did we saw dozens of the very large jellyfish being swept out on the tide.  

 

They are preserving this bridge which is great but it is a shame that they pulled down and removed all trace of the Traeth Mawr station in the 80s.  

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

it is a shame that they pulled down and removed all trace of the Traeth Mawr station in the 80s.  

 

You should see what they've done to the West Norfolk!

[Mikkel]

10 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

 

"Emergency, call the guard!"

 

"I will, just give me 10 minutes to read this" !

 

[Nick Gough]

8 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Nick, What a beautiful site.  We did not manage to walk over it this time.  The last time we did we saw dozens of the very large jellyfish being swept out on the tide.  

 

They are preserving this bridge which is great but it is a shame that they pulled down and removed all trace of the Traeth Mawr station in the 80s.  

I don't think I've seen a photo of the bridge from this viewpoint before. An impressive sight!

 

Like Traeth Mawr there's not a lot left where you should be able to see Barmouth Junction in the background.

[corneliuslundie]

When we first holidayed Bamouth (1970s) we stayed at a guest house part way up the hill beyond Porkington Terrace (wonderful name) on the way to Panorama Walk. Our room was on the top floor and the view across the estuary was magnificent. The first thing I did was to take some photos.  But that view above is from much higher up behind that house and even better. I think the only way to do better still would be from a drone.

How do we model that scene? T gauge in a ballroom?

Jonathan

[Simond]

4 yards long in Z scale…

[NCB]

Re the coach sides, here's a pic of a 4-wheel coach under restoration:

 

 

 

I've the impression that the moulding extends to the top, in which case black could be expected.

 

Nigel

Edited September 15, 2021 by NCB

[Northroader]

In the Barmouth bridge picture, the hill in the middle behind Fairbourne has a farm where I camped with the scouts a couple of times, and behind it to the right you can just make a slate quarry, home of the “Blue Lake”