Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

17 minutes ago, Simond said:

The thing to get a grip on with these bogies, is that the coach hangs from them, by virtue of the green rods, and the volute springs.  
 

you’re right to conclude that they don’t cope well with model curves.  I have several 7mm vehicles, and some of them have the cross beams (blue) and volutes (green) firmly attached to the bogie, with a hopefully-not-too-obvious gap between the dumb-irons (blue) and the aforementioned cross beams.  
 

If you have footboards, this gap can be suitably concealed!

 

the other approach is to not install the green rods, and let the bogie swing within the cage created by the blue bits.  This works on the longer bogies which have the blue bits in the middle of the bogie, rather than at the ends, but swing is severely limited on a bogie such as in Mike’s 3D view.

 

cheating is fair game!

atb

Simon

 

Simon,

Thank you.  I think cheating is the way forward.  The blue hangers will have a small slice in them to allow me to fix the bogies in the normal way.

[MikeOxon]

46 minutes ago, Simond said:

The thing to get a grip on with these bogies, is that the coach hangs from them, by virtue of the green rods, and the volute springs.  ...

Thank you, Simon, that's a much better way of describing things!  The bogie, of course is supported by the wheels.

 

Dean had earlier experimented with a bogie where, instead of using a cross beam, he ran it longitudinally outside the bogie.  That just tended to bend under sideways pressure, leading to de-railments.

[MikeOxon]

As mentioned in my previous post, Dean initially devised a centreless bogie for his experimental 4-4-0T No.1.  I have picked out the frame in blue, as in my drawing of the carriage bogie above, on the drawing by E.W.Twining.

This engine apparently failed to stay on the track and was soon converted to a 2-4-0T.

 

Mike

 

 

[NCB]

Presumably that arrangement left more space for the inside cylinders.

 

Nigel

[Ouroborus]

New to this topic.  What a fascinating read.  I stayed in Barmouth on Tuesday.  The network rail guys have some huge pieces of timber amassed north of the town and by the campsite.  They had the bridge lit up at night and seemed to be working on it.   I was struck by how pretty the line in from Barmouth Junction was at night - almost alpine

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Ouroborus said:

New to this topic.  What a fascinating read.  I stayed in Barmouth on Tuesday.  The network rail guys have some huge pieces of timber amassed north of the town and by the campsite.  They had the bridge lit up at night and seemed to be working on it.   I was struck by how pretty the line in from Barmouth Junction was at night - almost alpine

 

Thank you for this picture, it is quite magical.  

 

Welcome aboard.  Have you read all 182 pages?  If so you need a medal.  Although I try and do things as well as possible, I try not to take myself too seriously.   It is supposed to be a hobby, and fun.  If you have looked carefully, you may have noticed that sometimes, things actually get finished.

[ChrisN]

I shall sneak out while he is in bed.  Yes I know he is a teenager but he has to be at work by 7:00am.  He is a nice lad but I do not want him to think he is running the show.

 

I have been completely single minded as to getting on with the station.  Honestly, I only got out the brass coal wagon from Shire Scenes in case there was nothing to do while baby sitting for my son, never touched it otherwise guv, and looking at figures for modification on Dart Castings and Langley, and of course Andy Stadden's, was (mostly), at times when modelling could not happen.  (There are a few interesting models on Dart Castings but their Dean coach buffers are out of stock.  I need these as my Ratio coach buffers are, er, not very sturdy.  In other words I have broken 3 out of 4 on one coach. So, no order yet, so no further temptation.)  It only took a moment to check my garlic netting against the diamond wire fencing, and to find the fencing is better for luggage racks in size, but not as flexible.

 

I have cut up all the ply supports.  I was a bit concerned that my hacksaw was actually attacking the mitre block, and I cannot find the third blade on my saw, the one with the large teeth for sawing wood, so I went outside and attacked the strips I had cut with a proper small wood saw.  I was surprised I managed to not make a complete mess of it.  To prove I have got that far, here is a picture of them, all in rough position.

 

 

 

I have even stuck some of them together.  

 

Today's modelling has mainly been looking at platform clearances, after which I got out the things needed for doing the windows.  I want to run through what the clearances on the platform look like.  So clearance on the up platform and bay on the platform side.

 

 

 

Close but alright.

 

 

 

This side of the bay suffers from the fact that the window is the other side so casts a shadow.  I think it is still clear that this one misses the platform.

 

 

 

A Triang clerestorey.  These were bought before my cutter and were going to get hacked, now the ones with couplings are in revenue earning service.  It has no footboards so is fine.

 

 

 

Just the right distance.  The GWR bogie coaches I will eventually make will be about this length which is why I am using it.

 

Finally,

 

 

 

I did not take one the other side.  AS it has no footboards it is like the clerestory and is a good distance from the platform.  You will notice that it overhangs the platform.  I think what happened was that I had the platform the right distance for it to miss, but then tried one of my coaches the other side, and had to move it over.  I did then cut off more at the bay side, but obviously not enough.  Now as the platform is so low, the coach misses it.  Whether it misses unwary passengers is another matter.

 

The final height is a little higher as it is going to be paved (his Lordship could not have walked on asphalt or crushed stones now could he?), but I think it will be fine.

 

I have done the clearances for the other side of the bay, but that is another 9 photos, and it would be a long post so I will sign off before your eyes glaze over.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by ChrisN

[Sasquatch]

It's worth checking the clearance on any locos with bogies too. It's possible to shunt a 12 wheel diner into Dunsters goods shed but not with a Bachmann class 08, the coupling rod pins foul on the cattle dock wall!

 

Just a thought...

 

Regards Shaun 

[ChrisN]

1 minute ago, Sasquatch said:

It's worth checking the clearance on any locos with bogies too. It's possible to shunt a 12 wheel diner into Dunsters goods shed but not with a Bachmann class 08, the coupling rod pins foul on the cattle dock wall!

 

Just a thought...

 

Regards Shaun 

 

Shaun,

Thanks.  At present I do not have any locos with bogies, not until the post comes tomorrow.  I have bought a Hornby Hogwarts Castle, but that will not use the bay anyway.  (Ok, if you want to know I am going to put a face on it, and yes we do have googgly eyes, and it will be James, as far as my grand daughter knows.  The real James are just too expensive.)

 

I will however, have to try all my locos as far as the board join.  There is no power at present on the other side I think, although I must have put wires in.  At the time I just needed to get things running as I was getting complaints my grandchildren were growing and nothing was moving.

 

To be honest I am a bit worried about it as it has outside cylinders, but we shall see.

[Simond]

Before you stick your blocks down, cut some paper to fit close to the track, and lay it down where the platforms will be

 

then, take your longest coach, hold a pencil

against the middle and draw on your paper

 

repeat with the pencil held against the end of the vehicle with the largest overhang

 

you should end up with a couple of sinuous lines - you can then cut your platform to the line farthest from the track, safe in the knowledge that there’s half a pencil thickness of clearance

 

if it looks too much, shave the side off the pencil!

 

hth

Simon

[corneliuslundie]

Not just outside cylinders, but also coupling rods on outside framed engines - not a problem with Cambrian locos until they bought a 4-4-0 from the GWR but the GWR had plenty of double framed locos.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Simond said:

Before you stick your blocks down, cut some paper to fit close to the track, and lay it down where the platforms will be

 

then, take your longest coach, hold a pencil

against the middle and draw on your paper

 

repeat with the pencil held against the end of the vehicle with the largest overhang

 

you should end up with a couple of sinuous lines - you can then cut your platform to the line farthest from the track, safe in the knowledge that there’s half a pencil thickness of clearance

 

if it looks too much, shave the side off the pencil!

 

hth

Simon

 

Simon,

Believe it or not, I did all that, and when I moved it over I ran the coach along with a pencil alongside.  I think I must have over compensated for the pencil.

[ChrisN]

30 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Not just outside cylinders, but also coupling rods on outside framed engines - not a problem with Cambrian locos until they bought a 4-4-0 from the GWR but the GWR had plenty of double framed locos.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Yet another reason not to make an Armstrong Goods, or to bring the layout into the 1940s.

[Simond]

3 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Simon,

Believe it or not, I did all that, and when I moved it over I ran the coach along with a pencil alongside.  I think I must have over compensated for the pencil.

Yes, you don't want to compensate for the pencil, you want to shave the pencil down to the minimum clearance you need. 

 

It works best on large, heavy models with limited running clearances from wheels to rails, so  the Protofour version of 5" gauge would be easy...  The issue with most of the common modelling scales is the generous running clearances required to get rigid stock (with oversize flanges for "carpet railways") round trainset curves.

 

As you're doing 00, you probably need to be a bit cautious about pushing the stock to the limits, so when doing the inside of a curve, the (shaved) pencil against the middle of the longest coach, and press it towards the centre of the curve.  Similarly the outside curves, you need the longest overhang and you need to push the vehicle, but in this case, push the overhang outwards, and the other end inwards, so the vehicle is taking up the "worst case" position.

 

If your pencil is really very shaved, I guess you might generate a 1mm gap between the bufferbeam of your Castle and the platform edge, and similarly the middle of a coach and the opposite platform.  1mm would be very good, there's typically much more than 3" on the real thing!   But of course, the widest parts might be rather more than that, and even teh really close bits will probably be less close when the vehicles are driving normally, rather than being forced one way or the other by a 12" scale hand.

 

It's an issue for the real thing too - provision for disabled folks in wheelchairs is challenging - to arrange an alignment in 2 dimensions between coach floor and platform, and not leave a gap down which small children may fall...  A subject under much study at the moment.

 

Simon

 

PS - don't worry about the outside rods, unless it's a Buffalo or something similar.  The overhang will be less directly adjacent to the wheels than it will in the middle of long stock, or at the end of a bogie loco.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Simond

[Nick Gough]

13 hours ago, ChrisN said:

At present I do not have any locos with bogies, not until the post comes tomorrow.  I have bought a Hornby Hogwarts Castle, but that will not use the bay anyway.  (Ok, if you want to know I am going to put a face on it, and yes we do have googgly eyes, and it will be James, as far as my grand daughter knows.  The real James are just too expensive.)

I did something similar with a Triang Flying Scotsman - when my son was small:

[ChrisN]

32 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

I did something similar with a Triang Flying Scotsman - when my son was small:

 

Nick,

That looks really good.  Mine will only have a stuck on face, a bit like Thomas days on preserved lines.

[NCB]

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Not just outside cylinders, but also coupling rods on outside framed engines - not a problem with Cambrian locos until they bought a 4-4-0 from the GWR but the GWR had plenty of double framed locos.

Jonathan

 

Indeed. I had to be very careful in getting things right with my Dukedog:

 

Nigel

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, Simond said:

It's an issue for the real thing too - provision for disabled folks in wheelchairs is challenging - to arrange an alignment in 2 dimensions between coach floor and platform, and not leave a gap down which small children may fall...  A subject under much study at the moment.

 

It's not just small children: At places like Salisbury the platforms are curved enough for large children to have dropped through. Then there are those stations where the height of the platform changes along the length; our local station has a noticeably lower platform height on the up side everywhere except the last 2-3 coaches of the train (where the buildings are). It cannot be the only one.

[Nick Gough]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

 

Nick,

That looks really good.  Mine will only have a stuck on face, a bit like Thomas days on preserved lines.

 

Thanks.

It was mostly just repainting , but I scratchbuilt a new tender body on an unpowered bogie from a Triang Deltic:

 

And made up the face from plasticard and filler:

[ChrisN]

So my nice red Hall has arrived, and having sorted the spring on the bogie, it seems to run well forwards, but growls backwards.  It was sold as second hand and used so I cannot complain.  It just needs a service.  As long as it can run forwards and show its face and not falter long enough to keep a four year old happy, then it will have done its job.  It runs in and out of the bay with no problem of fouling the platforms.  

 

I am not sure if I have wired up the bay, or if the rails are touching but there is power to the end.  (Yes I could check underneath, but as it works I shall leave it until I have to take it all down sometime.)

 

So the other side of the bay, in pictures.

 

 

 

Entering the bay.

 

 

 

Centre of the bay curve.

 

 

 

Leaving the bay curve.

 

Same for the short clerestory bogie.

 

 

 

Entering.

 

 

 

Centre

 

 

 

Leaving the curve.

 

Finally, the Mk1.

 

 

 

Entering

 

 

 

Centre

 

 

 

Leaving the curve.

 

This was all done using @Simond's method with the pencil.  The platform is just laid on the supports, and is not cut to the correct width.  The piece of wood at the back gives the width.

 

What is noticeable is that there is a large gap between the coaches and the platform in the centre of the curve.  What is also noticeable is that it does not matter how long the bogie coach is, it is the swing at the end that defines how far away the platform is.  This may just look too much I may just shape it to the four wheelers and leave the bogies to go over the top of the platform.  This is not exactly satisfactory, but how it is now is not either.

 

Either way at grouping it gives the GWR problems and it may account for the fact that the station was after WW2downgraded, and eventually demolisghed.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by ChrisN

[Simond]

"What is also noticeable is that it does not matter how long the bogie coach is, it is the swing at the end that defines how far away the platform is."

 

that's right Chris, on the outside of the curve.

 

On platforms on the inside of the curve, the pencil needs to be in the middle of the coach, and the length does matter!

 

Hopefully, the view where there needs to be a big clearance is well hidden by the coach itself, so, whilst you'll know it's there and why, it'll not matter.

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

Or just stick to 6-wheelers. There were plenty on the GWR in 1895, even more on the Cambrian (and almost no bogie carriages). I think the longest vehicles for most of the year would have been the 6-wheeled observation car at 37 ft 7 in. (which would have passed through Traeth Mawr) and a trio of 39 ft 5 in. semicorridor composites. The first 45 ft bogie carriages I can find arrived in 1895 but I suspect that they stayed on the main line or were used for the most high prestige through carriage services.

You will note that I call them carriages. How can you possibly keep coaches in a carriage shed?

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Simond said:

"What is also noticeable is that it does not matter how long the bogie coach is, it is the swing at the end that defines how far away the platform is."

 

that's right Chris, on the outside of the curve.

 

On platforms on the inside of the curve, the pencil needs to be in the middle of the coach, and the length does matter!

 

Hopefully, the view where there needs to be a big clearance is well hidden by the coach itself, so, whilst you'll know it's there and why, it'll not matter.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Or just stick to 6-wheelers. There were plenty on the GWR in 1895, even more on the Cambrian (and almost no bogie carriages). I think the longest vehicles for most of the year would have been the 6-wheeled observation car at 37 ft 7 in. (which would have passed through Traeth Mawr) and a trio of 39 ft 5 in. semicorridor composites. The first 45 ft bogie carriages I can find arrived in 1895 but I suspect that they stayed on the main line or were used for the most high prestige through carriage services.

You will note that I call them carriages. How can you possibly keep coaches in a carriage shed?

Jonathan

 

Thank you both.

 

Once there are coaches in the bay, you are right it will not be that noticeable.  My other thought is that the platform extends past the loop so coaches will be crossing the points and may need a piece out of the platform, but then again it is low enough not to matter. (The same could be said for the bay as well.)

 

As far as the Cambrian are concerned, and the MSLR and LNWR through coaches, there will be nothing bigger than 6 wheelers.  THe GWR is different as I was intending to use tri-composite bogie coaches, some of which will stop at Traeth Mawr.   Interesting.

[corneliuslundie]

This is the observation car. You really need it to call at Traeth Mawr.

 

But of course no Gresley Pacific would ever be allowed across Barmouth Bridge.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

6 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

This is the observation car. You really need it to call at Traeth Mawr.

 

But of course no Gresley Pacific would ever be allowed across Barmouth Bridge.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Yes, absolutely.  I knew there were later observation cars and I thought there were earlier ones but I have not seen a diagram, or even a picture, I think.  I assume that the sign is from later as the later cars were on servives that ran that way, but in 1895, winter timetables anyway there were no trains like that.

 

There are no two trains each day that it can go there and back on, not in the middle of the day, so it will go Mach to Pwllheli one day, and return the next.

 

It is on the list, but coaches are a long way down now.  (Probably.)