Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

1 minute ago, MikeOxon said:

Examples of the old K's Syphon plastic kit turn up regularly on eBay.  I fitted a Cleminson chassis onto mine to enable it to go round curves.

 

Mike,

Thank you.  I knew I had seen one around somewhere, and I wondered if K's did one although I thought it would be white metal.  I shall look.

[drduncan]

The k’s under frame is inaccurate. MJT do GWR oil axle boxes with 6 ft springs on j hangers which my reading of the siphons bible indicates are the right size. You may need to fabricate Dean churchward either side brakes too depending on how pre group you are.

Duncan

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

The k’s under frame is inaccurate. MJT do GWR oil axle boxes with 6 ft springs on j hangers which my reading of the siphons bible indicates are the right size. You may need to fabricate Dean churchward either side brakes too depending on how pre group you are.

Duncan

 

Duncan,

Thank you.  If that is the case I might as well stick with the first two options.  As I am supposed to be avoiding rolling stock at the moment, buying something that needs work doing on it is no advantage over buying a kit.

 

I assume by 1895 the GWR were using oil axelboxes?  I should have the right springs and boxes as I used them on the family saloon, I just need to find them.

 

[drduncan]

My pleasure. If the owner of if the owner of Digram3d is who I think he might be then I’m the reason there are kits for the 6w siphons and the one off no1777. He was kind enough to design pre and post 1904 versions for me with the gaps between the lower planks filled in to allow reduced ‘G W’ lettering. He also did the 4w small siphons for me too. They are all in my ever increasing ‘to be finished’ pile. I’ll try to dig them out and take some photos for you.

Duncan

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

My pleasure. If the owner of if the owner of Digram3d is who I think he might be then I’m the reason there are kits for the 6w siphons and the one off no1777. He was kind enough to design pre and post 1904 versions for me with the gaps between the lower planks filled in to allow reduced ‘G W’ lettering. He also did the 4w small siphons for me too. They are all in my ever increasing ‘to be finished’ pile. I’ll try to dig them out and take some photos for you.

Duncan

 

Duncan,

I shall probably go with 3d as I can buy both the O1 and O2 from the price of the O2 on Shapeways.  I will also buy the wheels and axels etc. I will need to check and make sure I am certain as to what is pre 1904.   It will probably go on my 'to do' list as well.

[drduncan]

Chris,

Here are the 4w siphons:

And you can see where I have modified or replaced laser cut parts. 
 

When these were made in 2011/12 we were very much pushing the envelope in way could be done so the replacement of bits shouldn’t be seen as a criticism of the process or designer (I just stood behind him pointing out the bits I didn’t like).

D

 

[drduncan]

Abs here are the O1,O2,O3s and remember the O2 is the earliest design.  The only difference between them is the end framing.

D

[drduncan]

Abs lastly the O4 3 door design (which is the K,s prototype I think):

Here is no 1777

And a view of the modified brass master cleminson chassis I’m using underneath them (the ones I have came with 1mm mdf under frame bits and veneer overlays only some of which I’m using):

Best 

Duncan

[drduncan]

As to oil boxes the Slin book is silent but the load is significantly increased after 1904 which might coincide with fitting oil axle boxes. Dean churchwrd either side brakes were fitted between 1909 and 1917.

D

 

On reflection this would be a rather late date for GWR npcs to be running with grease boxes…

Edited January 15, 2022 by drduncan
2nd thoughts

[Mikkel]

24 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Abs lastly the O4 3 door design (which is the K,s prototype I think):

 

 

Very useful to see these built up Duncan. That last one doesn't correspond to the K's kit though, which is a two-door design. Seen here at Farthing:

 

 

Exactly what diagram the K's kit represents is a little vague. It's often said to be O2 but that had single arc roof. I've been discussing this with @BWsTrains who may also be interested in your photos of the Diagram 3D kits above.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Mikkel

[drduncan]

4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Very useful to see these built up Duncan. That last one doesn't correspond to the K's kit though, which is a two-door design. Seen here at Farthing:

 

 

Exactly what diagram the K's kit represents is a little vague. It's often said to be O2 but that had single arc roof. I've been discussing this with @BWsTrains who may also be interested in the above photos.

 

You’re quite right. I should have opened up the box of k’s siphons to check. The k’s one is an O1 based on its 3 arc roof and heavy end framing beneath the roof. (O3s have thinner framing that follows the roof profile). The O1 was second type built.

D

Edited January 15, 2022 by drduncan
Fat fingered typing

[drduncan]

Also don’t forget I’m only assuming that the chap who did these is the same as diagram3d…

D

[Mikkel]

12 minutes ago, drduncan said:

You’re quite right. I should have opened up the box of k’s siphons to check. The k’s one is an O1 based on its 3 arc roof and heavy end framing beneath the roof. (O3s have thinner framing that follows the roof profile). The O1 was second type built.

D

 

That clarifies an issue I've had with Russell's GWR coaches vol 1. His diagram of the 4-wheeler shows it as diagram O1! Confusingly, the GWSG list of corrections to Russell's books does not correct that error, but does state that a subsequent photo of a 6-wheeler is "Diagram O1 (the K's kit)". Nice to get that sorted out.

 

PS: It leaves the 4-wheeler without a diagram no., perhaps it never got one.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Mikkel

[ChrisN]

10 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Also don’t forget I’m only assuming that the chap who did these is the same as diagram3d…

D

 

Duncan,

Thank you for these pictures, they are very useful.  If it is not the same man then he has half inched copied the design.  Now for some questions, as raised by the photos and comments.

 

The springs on the 4 wheeler, are they the same as the 6 wheeler?  As you have changed them I will not buy the ones from 3d, or perhaps his W irons.  (I just need to find mine, although they may be with oil boxes.  I blame Christmas, and tidying up for little people to come round.)

 

On the view with the Cleminson, is that his springs behind the whitemetal springs?  I have some Brassmasters Cleminsons but they are waiting until I learn to solder brass so I shall probably use my own method, and am not sure whether to use the MJT W irons, or his.

 

Did you use his wheels?  (Probably not by looking at them.  I do have quite a few in stock I think.

 

Are you saying that they only had brakes on one side before 1909, or none at all?

 

They do look nice, thank you for showing them.

[ChrisN]

17 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

That clarifies an issue I've had with Russell's GWR coaches vol 1. His diagram of the 4-wheeler shows it as diagram O1! Confusingly, the GWSG list of corrections to Russell's books does not correct that error, but does state that a subsequent photo of a 6-wheeler is "Diagram O1 (the K's kit)". Nice to get that sorted out.

 

PS: It leaves the 4-wheeler without a diagram no., perhaps it never got one.

 

 

Mikkel,

If Russell is wrong then 3d models are perpetuating it as they have the 4 wheel down as an O1, but also have the 6 wheel ones down as O1, O2 and O3.

[Mikkel]

Perhaps the diagram no. was transferred? I really must add the HMRS book on siphons to my library.

[drduncan]

47 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Mikkel,

If Russell is wrong then 3d models are perpetuating it as they have the 4 wheel down as an O1, but also have the 6 wheel ones down as O1, O2 and O3.

Urgh, I’m going to have to back to the attic to look at the bible again, aren’t I?

D

[drduncan]

@ChrisN 

No the springs on the 4w are shorter than on the 6w. The ones he did for me matched the Slinn drawings but were too fragile for me so I replaced them with Wizard ones that came with oil axle boxes they are 4’ ones I think but would have to check the drawing.

 

On some of the 4w I used his under frames but I fancied compensation so in others used MJT W irons.

 

On the cleminson yes they are his laser cut mdf springs behind the MJT ones. The cleminson was modified to be all inside bearing ;because I used his mdf laser cut W irons. I’m not sure I’ll use the mdf frames in the other siphons because the double layer of 1mm mdf takes up a lot of the possible side play space.

 

I used Alan Gibson EM maunsell wheels.

 

Slinn talked about the exBG under frames that were used under some as having outside rigged clasp brakes - these were vac brakes (probably the Armstrong type)  that were used on coaching stock at the time. Other might have had inside rigged vac brakes that were replacing outside rigged types around this time but the lower foot board gets in the way in photos so it is hard to be sure. 
 

Duncan

Edited January 15, 2022 by drduncan

[ChrisN]

So, these were ordered on Sunday afternoon, and arrived yesterday, (Tuesday).

 

 

 

You may ask why I did not take the parts out to show you them?  I did think of it and then realised that once open the parts could go walkabouts.  I would like to start them straight away but windows and doors are looking at me wanting to be done.

 

I also visited my favourite Barmouth web site and came across this.  It is a Sharp Stewart small bogie, or Beaconsfield Class loco, and just behind it is a Siphon.  The caption says 1898.  I am always a little dubious about dates on this site, but having had a good look at other information, I do not think it is far out.  Notice the Siphon roof is three arch.  The caption also says that it is entering Barmouth Junction and looking at the track work it appears to be coming from the Machynlleth direction.  So that is two out of two for milk coming from there.  (I could write a paper with 100% proof!  Umm, yes I have seen papers with nearly that few readings.  Not in my field I hasten to add.)

 

Now Russell says that the single framed door is on the diagram, and the double framed door must be a later variant for the 4 wheel O1.  The 3D instructions say it is the other way round. Was  the diagram of the first builds, or did they build it and draw a diagram later?  I am not sure, so I then asked myself, why not ask someone who was there?  Mr Price of course.  The trouble is he only glares at me now I have locked him in the display case, so I asked his son.

 

"You mean the milk vans?" He said looking puzzled, "No they are GWR, never take any notice of them really."

 

So, none the wiser.  I shall see what I feel like when I build it.  The double frame would make it just even more different than the 02.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited November 8, 2022 by ChrisN

[drduncan]

It’s definitely worth getting the Slinn book on siphons.

Duncan

[corneliuslundie]

The book is out of print. John Lewis has prepared a new book on Siphons which is with Wild Swan, but you will have to ask Simon Castens about a possible publication date.

I'll look at my copy of the HMRS book and come back to you.

Jonathan

[Nick Gough]

3 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I also visited my favourite Barmouth web site and came across this.  It is a Sharp Stewart small bogie, or Beaconsfield Class loco, and just behind it is a Siphon.  The caption says 1898.  I am always a little dubious about dates on this site, but having had a good look at other information, I do not think it is far out.  Notice the Siphon roof is three arch.  The caption also says that it is entering Barmouth Junction and looking at the track work it appears to be coming from the Machynlleth direction.  

 

Isn't it arriving from Barmouth Chris?

It looks to me that part of the town is visible in the distance, on the left, beyond the estuary.

 

The train appears to be crossing over the junction for the Dolgelley line, so heading towards Machynlleth.

 

I think the photographer is standing next to the signal box - is that its shadow next to him? - and with all the point rodding leading away.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Nick Gough

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Nick Gough said:

 

Isn't it arriving from Barmouth Chris?

It looks to me that part of the town is visible in the distance, on the left, beyond the estuary.

 

The train appears to be crossing over the junction for the Dolgelley line, so heading towards Machynlleth.

 

I think the photographer is standing next to the signal box - is that its shadow next to him? - and with all the point rodding leading away.

 

Nick,

Yes, you are right.  I thought from the track it was the other way round, but looking again, and again, and again, you are right.  As a final clincher, three pages after the track diagram on page 232 of Coast Lines of the Cambrian Railways there is a picture taken almost in the same place, with the background clearer and the caption says, 'an Up train for Dovey Junction and beyond.'

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

It’s definitely worth getting the Slinn book on siphons.

Duncan

 

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

The book is out of print. John Lewis has prepared a new book on Siphons which is with Wild Swan, but you will have to ask Simon Castens about a possible publication date.

I'll look at my copy of the HMRS book and come back to you.

Jonathan

 

The Slinn books I cannot find cheaper than £36.00 at the moment, so I will either wait for the new one or see what EBay turns up.

[corneliuslundie]

You have a PM Chris.

Jonathan