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Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)


ChrisN
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Very nice, Chris. The sides look so crisp and those seats indicate the Victorian elegance to come. 

 

8 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Next time I have an exciting announcement.

 

Another grandchild?

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Just to start by saying my announcement is not another grandchild.  Grandchildren may have stopped coming, probably as they are not being attracted by my railway.  That is how it works, isn't it?  :D

 

Firstly though, the loco.

 

 

Painted.jpg.243cf9568967b8f0211b72a4e1c901b3.jpg

 

It is not noticeable ob this image but it is streaky, lines of gloss and of matt.  The colour looks fine and as it will be varnished later I have decided to leave it.  Next must be the Archer's Rivets.  I assume I have to apply gloss varnish before I do those?  Could anyone who has used them please confirm.

 

 

Does anyone remember this?

 

 

1431955346_WithWashers.JPG.5b5eedb9e4a95ad7636c564ef68067c4.JPG

 

It is my patent method for six wheel coaches.

 

It is not as old as I thought, only nearly three years ago.  The W irons are from an MJT six wheel wagon compensated W irons.  I tried with the wire supplied but it was too stiff so I asked my son for some old electric guitar strings and used one of those,   I am not sure which, maybe an E.  This worked as above, but only as a proof of concept.

 

I was given a while ago a G20 set of Shire Scenes coach side which need to run as a six wheeler.  (Yes, I have lots of MSLR six wheelers to make but it seemed easier to start from this.)  I measured and cut the base from 40 thou plasticard, then from the diagram measured out the distance between the wheels, having worked out the centreline.  The solebar is a 2.5mm 'L' shape plastrut with a 15 x 125 thou strip on the bottom and a 1.5mm 'L' shape at the top to give it rigidity and to act as a base to glue it to the base.

 

 

 

2027205097_ChassisParts.jpg.ba50eb95725fa7fbe033f4e0c74085ac.jpg

 

 

The W irons on the end have been drilled to take a bolt and the centre wheel has has a piece of 40 thou plasticard glued to the back.  This is because at the first try the centre wheel set was held off the track by the guitar wire.  The centre support also had to be reamed out as ithe holes were quite tight on the axle..  Either side of the centre there are two lengths of 1.5mm square plastrut to stop the centre wheels tracking towards the back opposite to the direction of travel.

 

 

 

Wiorks.jpg.9528c65a83c674b8ac7ac35c711a4adc.jpg

 

So I pushed the nuts through the holes, screwed down the nuts fairly tightly but not so much as to stop the wheels rotating, and as I put it on the track made sure the centre wheels were in the centre; the paint tins are to give it a working weight.  I then put it in the fiddleyard and pushed it with a loco round to the station.

 

Now the exciting announcement; it WORKED!

 

Sorry, you are all disappointed, but I was quite excited and really pleased.  It would seem that I have a method for all my six wheelers.  The next stage being to add axleboxes and springs.  I will have to see if I put the springs on the solebar or W iron at the ends.  On the W iron would look better but might restrict the turning.  The middle one would have to be on the solebar, and I will have to work out how to attach the axlebox to it as it cannot go on the wheel.  After that is the running board.  At each stage it will have to be tested but hopefully it will be fine as everything should be outside the turning circle.

 

As for the locomotive.  Of course it is the 645.  As the Cambrian was short of motive power it was lent them.  Highly embarrassed they decided to paint it in their livery of invisible green..........

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited by ChrisN
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I have not used the Archers rivets. They are transfers and I have recently started using transfers: I got much better results with transfers if applied to a gloss surface (varnish in my case) and gloss varnish afterwards also. Then I go for matt or satin to suit what I want the final finish to be. I would do the same for the Archer sheets.

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Good to see the 6-wheeler experiment again, and especially that it worked! So now what do we call this method, the Traeth Mawr Arrangement perhaps.

 

I have had difficulty applying Archer's rivets to slippery surfaces (they won't stick), so always use primer first, then the rivets, then Microsol, then varnish. 

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30 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Good to see the 6-wheeler experiment again, and especially that it worked! So now what do we call this method, the Traeth Mawr Arrangement perhaps.

 

I have had difficulty applying Archer's rivets to slippery surfaces (they won't stick), so always use primer first, then the rivets, then Microsol, then varnish. 

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  Traeth Mawr Arrangement.  Yes why not, but lets get a few in place and working as that will prove it in the long term.

 

When you say 'primer' do you mean paint primer?  If so in that sequence when do you paint?  As you can guess I thought the rivets went on last, nearly.

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Hi Chris, yes on top of the paint primer is how I do it. 

 

image.png.49ca7e6d90cf5b8bc5f6d142df7da6ec.png

 

Then paint. But probably fine to do it on your saddle tank now after painting. My point is just that I find it works best if they have something to grip on to.

 

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2 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Hi Chris, yes on top of the paint primer is how I do it. 

 

image.png.49ca7e6d90cf5b8bc5f6d142df7da6ec.png

 

Then paint. But probably fine to do it on your saddle tank now after painting. My point is just that I find it works best if they have something to grip on to.

 

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  Anyone would think I have not read your blog/thread.  I will go back and have a look.

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Now as they say, for something completely different.

 

I attach a link to the Hugh Griffith Roberts Flickr site of Barmouth.  I find this site really valuable for old Cambrian, and general historic pictures, although you have to be careful of the dates as some are obviously wrong.  The link is of a postcard of Barmouth station dated 1891.  I post it on my thread rather than, 'What colour is Invisible Green' or some such thread as 1) There are those who view this thread who have looked at old postcards for their own ends and can comment about how accurate it might be, and 2) the are Cambriophiles, or people who know a lot about the Cambrian Railways.  

 

(I am not sure as it is on Flickr if I am allowed to post it on here.  If I am I will post it in a reply.)

 

This postcard is interesting, mostly for the colour; so how much can we trust it.  It is contemporary, but it is an artist's view.

 

So my thoughts.

1) The coach.  Would they have really had one coach like this unless I suppose it is being shunted.  I am not certain what type it is.  If it is Cambrian it could be the old First Class Saloon as seen in someone's garden on page 27 Cambrian Railways Album Vol 1.  As I know some of you have not seen the light yet of the glorious Cambrian here is a diagram of it.

 

1474509919_OldFirstClass.jpg.2a18bf0e0aea412ff5e148c0d733f9da.jpg

 

However, look at the roof.  The saloon would never have had that many ventilators etc, so is it a GWR incursion being taken back to where it belongs or some other companies coach, or did he make the whole thing up?

 

Now the colour is never Bronze Green and white, although some think the colour Bronze Green was more brown, or rather more bronze than green.  If it was that colour my coaches will be very wrong.  I prefer to think it is not Cambrian.

 

2) The engine is an Albion but is black, although perhaps with a hint of green on the top in the highlights.  Were Cambrian locos black, or was the artist seeing what he wanted to see?  (I have compelling evidence I feel for my view that it was invisible green but I shall save that for another time.)

 

3) The station awning.  Was it really brown?  Modern pictures show that it is a different construction from the roof, but really that colour?  I note the building on the down platform is similar to the Newton one which I have used as a prototype for my down shelter but without the awning.  The roof appears wooden, without any felting, (tar paper?).  

 

So comments would be welcome.  When my son eventually gives me the code to get into the time machine he will have made I promise to go and take photos to relieve the suspense, and maybe take a few of red GWR wagons as well.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

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Some great photographs there some I have seen but others are new to me particularly some of the shots of the cock and draw bridge.

AS for the coach livery is the previous picture a black and white print of a coloured painting or the black and white picture which the artist then painted. I think perhaps the latter as I am not sure about the brown roof of the platform canopy.

 

Don 

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I would say it is a hand tinted image from a black and white photo. These were popular at the time. The well known image or the Barmouth drawbridge is similar.

So the artist may well have got some of the colours, if not wrong, OK then inaccurate, working from memory in a darkroom. But I don't know the actual process involved.

There is a classic case in a short early film of an LNWR train at one of the north Wales stations: the "colourist" made the backs of the signals red rather than the fronts.

I agree that there seem to be rather a large number of vents on the roof. One row centrally would be quite enough, surely, and if the far compartment is the luggage space then it would surely not need any. If they were not so well delineated I would have suggested that they were a figment of the artist's imagination. I am comparing the number of vents with the Brighton at the time which only put any on smoking compartments.  And my kit for a gas lit GWR bogie carriage (Slaters)  has none, though perhaps the clerestory provided enough ventilation. I assume the round shapes on the carriage centre line are gas lamps. There appear possibly to be none over the far compartment which would also make sense if it is a luggage space.

I have looked through all the relevant drawings I received from Jack Slinn of GWR carriages and Mike Lloyd's drawings of Cambrian carriages and I can find no sign of vents of this kind.

So a bit of a mystery. LNWR or MS&L perhaps but the person colouring the photo didn't know that and based the colours on memories of carriages seen at Barmouth?

Sorry, not much help.

Jonathan

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1 hour ago, Donw said:

Some great photographs there some I have seen but others are new to me particularly some of the shots of the cock and draw bridge.

AS for the coach livery is the previous picture a black and white print of a coloured painting or the black and white picture which the artist then painted. I think perhaps the latter as I am not sure about the brown roof of the platform canopy.

 

Don 

 

Don,

It is an interesting site, and new photographs are being added.  The postcard was not there a few weeks ago when I last looked.  Also, the album of 'The Town' is interesting as it shows the town through its development and you get an idea of road surfaces etc.  The pictures of people are interesting too.

 

Have you seen the one of Dolgelley?  Only one of the railway though, and I am not sure it has been added to recently.

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1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I would say it is a hand tinted image from a black and white photo. These were popular at the time. The well known image or the Barmouth drawbridge is similar.

So the artist may well have got some of the colours, if not wrong, OK then inaccurate, working from memory in a darkroom. But I don't know the actual process involved.

There is a classic case in a short early film of an LNWR train at one of the north Wales stations: the "colourist" made the backs of the signals red rather than the fronts.

I agree that there seem to be rather a large number of vents on the roof. One row centrally would be quite enough, surely, and if the far compartment is the luggage space then it would surely not need any. If they were not so well delineated I would have suggested that they were a figment of the artist's imagination. I am comparing the number of vents with the Brighton at the time which only put any on smoking compartments.  And my kit for a gas lit GWR bogie carriage (Slaters)  has none, though perhaps the clerestory provided enough ventilation. I assume the round shapes on the carriage centre line are gas lamps. There appear possibly to be none over the far compartment which would also make sense if it is a luggage space.

I have looked through all the relevant drawings I received from Jack Slinn of GWR carriages and Mike Lloyd's drawings of Cambrian carriages and I can find no sign of vents of this kind.

So a bit of a mystery. LNWR or MS&L perhaps but the person colouring the photo didn't know that and based the colours on memories of carriages seen at Barmouth?

Sorry, not much help.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I have the book, 'London and North Western Railway 30ft 1" six wheel carriages'.  I bought it mainly for its title, as it  screams, "Anorak!", "Nerd!"  It is the sort of title that gets non enthusiasts if not rolling in the aisles then quietly chortling.  It does however have in it all you would ever want to know about these carriages and as at some point I wish to build LNWR carriages it is invaluable.  It shows two things, 1) the LNWR carriages sprouted things on their roof as if they were infected with some kind of disease, and 2) they used these type of carriages as Inspection Saloons.  

 

Now the Inspection Saloons did not have this number of vents, neither does this carriage look like any of them.  They were coupled to outside cylinder 2-2-2s.  Looking at the engine I have always worried that it is a 2-2-2 rather than a 2-4-0, but it certainly is not an outside cylinder.  I cannot remember any information about the Cambrian using an Inspection Saloon, but that does not mean they did not.  I just wonder if the artist just was completely confused and perhaps had never been there but was working from photos?  Maybe not, but it is thought provoking.

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Re. the Archer rivet transfers: I've had reasonable success applying them directly to bare plasticard using MicroSet only. I lift the transfer with a thin bit of backing from the sheet, place it next to where I want the transfer to go, add a drop of MicroSet with a fine brush, then manipulate the transfer into its final position using a suitable pointy implement. After doing a batch, it's vital to wait 24 hours for the adhesive to harden before handling the model.

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Interesting the Dolgelley one Chris. I saw the railway one but as soon as I saw the Footbridge and the New Signalbox new it was out of our era. There is one of Dogelley with the Barmouth ones showing a GWR 0-6-0ST dated 1904  unfortunately I cannot read the engine number and the GWR signal box in use then is off the picture on the right. Interesting though. 

There is a further photo of Dolgelley yard with a train with some coaches right up your street all short ones. I cannot tell if the train is arriving or has backed into the long siding which I think was used for coaches at times. There is also a signalling diagram for Barmouth North Box I must get the details from that.

 

Don

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1 hour ago, Donw said:

Interesting the Dolgelley one Chris. I saw the railway one but as soon as I saw the Footbridge and the New Signalbox new it was out of our era. There is one of Dogelley with the Barmouth ones showing a GWR 0-6-0ST dated 1904  unfortunately I cannot read the engine number and the GWR signal box in use then is off the picture on the right. Interesting though. 

There is a further photo of Dolgelley yard with a train with some coaches right up your street all short ones. I cannot tell if the train is arriving or has backed into the long siding which I think was used for coaches at times. There is also a signalling diagram for Barmouth North Box I must get the details from that.

 

Don

 

Don,

Yes, I have looked at the photograph of the 0-6-0ST and tried to see the number and failed.  I do note that it has more than three sections to the tank and it is the wrong shape for the one I am doing.

 

This photograph  is dated by C. C. Green as 1882 which I think is a better date as I do not think any of these coaches would have been around in 1910.  The loco is without smoke so I would assume that it had stopped for the picture or had backed into the siding.

 

Maybe oneday they will post a picture of that signal box you are after.

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I have had quite a good run of modelling this week, although do not be fooled, I have nearly caught up with my backlog of posting.

 

I sat down tonight to measure out where the rivets should go on the 645 with a six section tank and one set of rivets will go straight through the footrest on the tank which they did not do.  The footrest appears quite well glued on and although I could prise it off I probably will not.  That leaves me with the question of how I finish it off.  I am not sure yet, any answers on the usual postcard please.

 

However, I have been doing running boards.

 

320520928_RunningBoard1.jpg.c482bbe4f3c5547e6055fc20b908f098.jpg

 

My usual method, or the method I have adopted is to take some staples, (I am not sure if these are the size that fits my wife's stapler, as we have staplers and staples but they do not always match up, a bit like the plastic boxes and lids in the cupboard.  How on earth can you have boxes without lids and lids without boxes?)  I cut one end off and then shorten the other using a pair of pliers.  I then superglue them to the plasticard running board which is a 1.5 x 1.5 mm 'L' shape glued to a 20 x 0.125 thou strip.  On the diagram there is an extra wooden bracing under the support and these are pieces of the top of the 'T' that I cut off to make the solebar.  To put the pieces in place as they are quite tiny I dipped my brush in Plastic Weld, then picked up the piece I wanted using the damp brush, and manoeuvred it into place.

 

2016026065_RunningBoard2.jpg.cdcf8a549816f9b6c47b2acbb5d931f8.jpg

 

 

 The running boards were slotted into the holes in the footboards so as I could mark where the slots for the axleboxes should go.  On the rebuilt version the running board is in three separate sections which is probably easier.

 

1762947230_RunningBoard3.jpg.2143ac0f24903543db5bf4d726c674bc.jpg

 

You notice that the time I have taken to make sure that the holes in the running board are lined up with the holes in the footboard means that the supports are all vertical and the running board is as straight as a die.  :whistle:

 

575823438_RunningBoard4.jpg.27fc0f0cdbbcf08f66cf799fc8c8f273.jpg

 

I actually spent a while making sure that tghe first support was dry and firm before gluing the next one to try and make them straight..  The running boards were fairly stiff before the notches for the axleboxes were removed, but perhaps I should have used something thicker as @Mikkel did on his saloon.  It is, I suppose, the argument between scale size and robustness.  (Is that a word?  Should I use robustcisity?)

 

I then looked at my Stroudley brake.

 

1650523078_StroudleyBrake8.jpg.3af3d2abaa4ad17f0bd656b08beb1d96.jpg

 

You notice first of all it has gained a roof.  This time I remembered before I rolled it to mark on the positions of the oil tops.  (First time ever!  Usually it is 'Oh bother!  Should have done that while it was flat!')  The roof rolled, (forgot to take a photo), I glued strengtheners under it so I can remove the roof as is normal for me.  Two coats of Shellac, rubbed down, holes drilled and then oil tops superglued in place.  You will notice that it has a footboard, and two small running boards not attached.  I was looking at it and thought, 'No running board!'  

 

423754281_StroudleyBrake9.jpg.06ac5cad557ff5e4afe89e477e8d43b2.jpg

 

So, two pieces of cardboard were cut.  There is no ledge to gain purchase for them so they were cut to glue onto the base.  Interesting thought.  I have always built my coaches with the solebar below the floor.  Is that strictly necessary?  Maybe if the vacuum cylinder or gas tank is not completely below the footboard, then yes.  If not, or it is too early for either, then perhaps no.  

 

You can see the staples in place, the running board notched and superglued into place.

 

1605451469_StroudleyBrake10.jpg.6a4128763cbef55ce9eb829386aa607d.jpg

 

Here it is waiting for Shellac on the new cardboard and for the shellac in place to be rubbed down.

 

The next thing for both is vacuum cylinders.  Did Stroudley brakes have vacuum in 1895?  Must have; Only the Cambrian held out against this infernal new fangled idea of through braking.

 

Anyone know off the top of their heads where I can get a LBSCR vacuum cylinder and a MLSR/GC cylinder?  If not then I will trawl through the suppliers.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

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Excellent progress on the carriages.  I especially like your stapled running boards.  Now that I find it so easy to 3D-print carriage sides, I find it seems more difficult to add all these finishing touches - something to do with relativity, I expect :)

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3 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Anyone know off the top of their heads where I can get a LBSCR vacuum cylinder

 

Looking excellent Chris!!

 

I would contact Chris Cox of 5&9 Models, the latest price list I have for him lists "Westinghouse Brake Cylinder x2" for £2 in his carriage fittings. (The LBSC was air braked, not vacuum braked)

 

Gary

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26 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

 

Looking excellent Chris!!

 

I would contact Chris Cox of 5&9 Models, the latest price list I have for him lists "Westinghouse Brake Cylinder x2" for £2 in his carriage fittings. (The LBSC was air braked, not vacuum braked)

 

Gary

 

12 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

But would any through vehicle from the LB&SCR then have to be dual braked? I know there were some dual braked LB&SCR carriages but not many. Volume 1 or 2 of Ian White's books probably has the answer. 

Jonathan

 

Thank you, and how annoying.  Annoying that I did not buy them when I bought the other things from him.

 

I had a feeling that the LBSCR was air braked.  (I probably knew that but I must have filled it in my mind in the tray that says, 'Not Relevant'.  It is next to the one marked WPB so probably got emptied.)  

 

Now Sir John, (Lord John?) wanted to go to Traeth Mawr in the same Saloon Carriage that his parents used on their honeymoon, which was unbraked.  (His wife of course loved it as she had had a baby in the last six weeks.)   The Brake Coach was behind it so it mattered little if it had through brakes or not so could have been one that was not converted but I think the LBSCR was better than that unless it was due to be scrapped.  I will fix the cylinder and the pipes but it will not matter that the Cambrian was vacuum as they will not be attached.

 

More importantly the only vehicle that needs to be dual braked is the horse box as that will be attached directly behind the pulling train.  I assume they had dual braked horse boxes as how would they get horses to Newmarket or Aintree?  If not the horse will have to be transferred to a GWR box, which there might actually be a kit for.

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I have asked Ian White who i know well (I am currently putting together his fourth volume on LB&SCR carriages for the HMRS).

But it is not just the Cambrian. The saloon has to get from London to the edge of Cambrian territory which means either the LNWR or the GWR,both of which were vacuum braked lines. I don't think that in 1895 they would have accepted "unbraked" saloons. Indeed, a little later the LNWR refused to accept come perfectly respectable newly built LB&SCR carriages for through services. I don't know why.

I'll report back.

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Specials such as family and invalid carriages, along with horseboxes and carriage trucks, were often dual braked as they were likely to have to work off the parent company's lines. Otherwise as far as my knowledge goes, ordinary passenger carriages were only dual-braked if assigned to or intended for specific through workings. 

 

Of the routes to Scotland, only St Pancras - St Enoch was vacuum all the way*, the WCJS, ECJS, and M&NBJS was all dual-braked.

 

*From the late 1880s through to the early Grouping period; in due course the LMS and LNER fitted ex-Caledonian, NER, and NBR locomotives with the vacuum brake; I don't know how long that took to complete. In the 1870s and 80s the Midland had used the Westinghouse brake but they became unhappy dealing with the Westinghouse Co., just as they did with Pullman.

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