Scottish Locos south of Carlisle

[Moses of the Mail]

Did any Scottish locomotives, (ex Caledonian, GSW etc) work passenger or goods trains south of Carlisle during LMS or BR days

Edited February 8, 2014 by Moses of the Mail

[Londontram]

Hi, not sure if this is of interest to you but theres a thread on the Caledonian association forum on the possibility of Caledonian trains running through to Newcastle from Glasgow via Carlisle, here’s a link to the site it’s a read only site for non members but has some interesting discussions on all matters Caledonian. Regards Steve

 

http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=114

[Friar Tuck]

The Caledonian did get south of Carlisle over the Solway Viaduct

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solway_Junction_Railway

Edited February 8, 2014 by Friar Tuck

[Moses of the Mail]

The question is how far south. Did the get to Hellifield and beyond or Lancaster, Preston etc.

[DCB]

They certainly did test runs from Carlisle to Leeds with a Pickersgill 4-4-0 in early  LMS days and to Preston with a 60 class 4-6-0 no 14630 and the Horwich Dynanometer car in June 1926 .

CR No 903 "Cardean"was tested between Carlisle and Preston in July 1909  the Caley loadiing gauge was more restrictive thann the LNWR so there was no physical restriction.on Caley locos on the LNWR though in general  LNWR locos fouled the CR loading gauge and were not allowed north of Carlisle though there are photographs of LNWR  "Experiment" no 1405 at Glasgow Central.

[asarnot]

 Caley 0-4-4T locos of the '439' class worked in the Bradford area in LMS days, and I think also much further south (Nottingham perhaps?). Also 0-4-0 ST 'pugs' worked in Lancashire, and one was famously a shunter at Crewe.

[pH]

If you mean did they work through Carlisle and on into England, then the answer is no. However ...

 

As DavidCBroad says above, Caledonian engines were tested south of Carlisle before and after Grouping.

 

There was an ex-G&SWR 4-6-0 made it to Leeds from Carlisle in 1926, working a train of imported coal, and returning to Carlisle on a regular goods.

 

Then there were ex-G&SWR and ex-Caledonian engines and engines of Caledonian design that were transferred to English sheds in LMS days. At least 3 G&SWR '279' class 0-6-0s (the dreaded 'Pumpers') worked in England - 2 of them on ex-Furness Railway lines and one working from Upperby, as far south as Preston and Crewe. I have, somewhere, a picture of one of them at work on the Furness section, but I can't find it just now.

 

The LMS built 10 0-4-4Ts to Caledonian design soon after the Grouping, and some of these were used in England. I've seen pictures of one at St. Albans, being used on trains to there from St. Pancras, and a couple at Nottingham Midland. I believe they were also used in the Bradford/Keighley area. They all were eventually transferred to Scottish sheds. (See Asarnot`s post above.)

 

Caley pugs travelled as well. At various times, some worked at Burton-on-Trent, Bromsgrove, Shrewsbury, Preston and Crewe Works. (See Asarnot again.)

 

The class that had the biggest presence south of the border was the ex-G&SWR Drummond/Whitelegg 0-6-2Ts. In 1935, 15 out of the 28 were at English sheds. At least the following sheds had some at one time or another - Barrow, Canklow, Leeds Holbeck, Stourton, Toton, Carlisle Upperby, Wellingborough and Workington. Some were withdrawn from English sheds and some returned to Scotland. Four were sold out of LMS service in England - 2 to the Ashington Colliery in Northumberland and 2 to Sir Robert McAlpine & Sons, who used them at Ebbw Vale. (There were other Scottish engines sold to industry south of the border but, AFAIK, they had not been used on LMS lines in England before being sold.)

 

If you go back to pre-grouping days, G&SWR engines worked on the GWR and Midland (at least) during WW1, and presumably the Caledonian Jumbos sent to France could have done some work on the way south.

[Moses of the Mail]

If you mean did they work through Carlisle and on into England, then the answer is no. However ...

 

As DavidCBroad says above, Caledonian engines were tested south of Carlisle before and after Grouping.

 

There was an ex-G&SWR 4-6-0 made it to Leeds from Carlisle in 1926, working a train of imported coal, and returning to Carlisle on a regular goods.

 

Then there were ex-G&SWR and ex-Caledonian engines and engines of Caledonian design that were transferred to English sheds in LMS days. At least 3 G&SWR '279' class 0-6-0s (the dreaded 'Pumpers') worked in England - 2 of them on ex-Furness Railway lines and one working from Upperby, as far south as Preston and Crewe. I have, somewhere, a picture of one of them at work on the Furness section, but I can't find it just now.

 

The LMS built 10 0-4-4Ts to Caledonian design soon after the Grouping, and some of these were used in England. I've seen pictures of one at St. Albans, being used on trains to there from St. Pancras, and a couple at Nottingham Midland. I believe they were also used in the Bradford/Keighley area. They all were eventually transferred to Scottish sheds. (See Asarnot`s post above.)

 

Caley pugs travelled as well. At various times, some worked at Burton-on-Trent, Bromsgrove, Shrewsbury, Preston and Crewe Works. (See Asarnot again.)

 

The class that had the biggest presence south of the border was the ex-G&SWR Drummond/Whitelegg 0-6-2Ts. In 1935, 15 out of the 28 were at English sheds. At least the following sheds had some at one time or another - Barrow, Canklow, Leeds Holbeck, Stourton, Toton, Carlisle Upperby, Wellingborough and Workington. Some were withdrawn from English sheds and some returned to Scotland. Four were sold out of LMS service in England - 2 to the Ashington Colliery in Northumberland and 2 to Sir Robert McAlpine & Sons, who used them at Ebbw Vale. (There were other Scottish engines sold to industry south of the border but, AFAIK, they had not been used on LMS lines in England before being sold.)

 

If you go back to pre-grouping days, G&SWR engines worked on the GWR and Midland (at least) during WW1, and presumably the Caledonian Jumbos sent to France could have done some work on the way south.

Thanks for that. I was aware of Scottish locos being used in England, especially those shedded at Manningham, but I was particularly interested in there use on service trains from Carlisle and you seem to have answered that. 

[Moses of the Mail]

 Caley 0-4-4T locos of the '439' class worked in the Bradford area in LMS days, and I think also much further south (Nottingham perhaps?). Also 0-4-0 ST 'pugs' worked in Lancashire, and one was famously a shunter at Crewe.

The Caley tanks were still there in BR days, but I was more interested in through services south of Carlisle

[pH]

The Caley tanks were still there in BR days.

 

Now, I'm interested in that. I thought they had all returned to Scotland before Nationalisation. When did the last one(s) leave Bradford?

[pH]

Since I wrote the post above, I've done some more reading, and have found that Manningham still had 4 Caley tanks in 1948, though all had gone by 1950. And all of them were original Caley engines - three '439' class and one '19' class. I had always thought it was only the LMS-built ones that had worked in England.

 

You learn something every day!

[Friar Tuck]

Caley passenger stock used the Westinghouse brake, so they could only run passenger locos with air or dual braked stock. This must have restricted their use south of the border.

[davefrk]

Caley passenger stock used the Westinghouse brake, so they could only run passenger locos with air or dual braked stock. This must have restricted their use south of the border.

 

But the LMS fitted the locos with Vacuum ejectors for working LMS standard stock so no problem there. In fact, the air pumps were mostly gone from Caley locos in late LMS, BR days. The few that still had them were a godsend when the new Glasgow electric 'Blue train' system went FLASH/BANG and the old Caley locos were used to haul the dead airbraked electrics in.

 

All the best,

Dave Franks.

[Compound2632]

Perhaps the Dunalastair idea was prompted by the Belgian Dunalastairs at Ostende?

 

Anyway, this whole question of Scottish engines South of the Border: the LSWR had a good many, thanks to Dugald Drummond, to say nothing of the Kilmarnock-inspired products of the Stirling family, on the South Eastern, Great Northern, and Hull & Barnsley? And what about all those engines built for English railways by Neilsons, Dubs, and Sharp, Stewart, or NBL as the three became in 1906?

Edited January 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[pH]

Rereading the posts in this topic, I realize there was another class that did work south of Carlisle in LMS days - the G&SWR 403 class 2-6-0s. When the G&SWR shed at Currock in Carlisle closed after Grouping, the whole class of 11 engines was amongst the engines which moved to Kingmoor. They were mainly used on goods trains north into Scotland, but at least two were recorded on trains south over the Settle and Carlisle in 1927/28.