Andrew P Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Andy what size will you end up with inside once insulated? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 Andy what size will you end up with inside once insulated? Andy Hi, Andy, I'll be losing about 87mm on the side walls and about 15cm at the back end as a stud wall and insulation have to go up. I've another thread going on with the "challenges" around the garage refurb. The garage has to house the usual assortment of bikes, and storage for other family members' possessions. So, perhaps a better question is "How big will the layout be". I'm probably going to end up with 11-12 feet of scenic length and about 18"-24" wide. So, not vast, but I wouldn't fancy doing an urban scene and having to potentially hundreds of buildings in to fill the space! Hence, in part, my choice of prototype. Although this is a permanent set up the scenic area will be on three 4' portable boards. This is in part to allow me to detail the scene away from the layout, partly because we may move in a few years time, and also perhaps it might be possible to exhibit the layout someday? At each end and off-scene there will either a helix to drop the track below the scenic section of the layout to access a fiddleyard, or there will be a series of loops to provide fiddleyards at each end at the same height as the scenic area. Haven't worked that out yet. My preference will be for the latter, if it will fit, as a previous layout with the fiddleyard underneath the scenic area was a nightmare to operate. Trackwork in the scenic area will be to a finer scale than the Peco offerings, possibly Finetrax. Again, trackwork is something that I've bought off the shelf in the past, but something I'd like to improve on. Locos I have so far are: Graham Farish Class 47, Class 20 and a Class 108 2 car dmu. I've an assortment of hoppers and other wagons which may, or may not, be appropriate for the line. The stuff I get in the future will be better aligned to the "reality", but I'm not going to worry too much if a particular class of dmu that I do have didn't run on the line! This morning's job is to move the mains supply to the garage to make way for the stud wall. All the best, AndyB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Andy re the HELIX, have a look at Dent, in Settel and Carlile section of Special interests by Mike61680, his Helix has been a nightmare. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 Andy, thanks for bringing Mike61680's thread to my attention. It seems to me that there is a natural cut-off point between the two options. By increasing the radius of the helix to overcome excess gradients there must come a point where it takes no more space to put a series of loops in instead. I'm also conscious of other considerations. First, how much rolling stock will I actually have? Can it be accommodated in, say, 4 loops at each end? That'd be 8 locomotives costing between £70-90 each plus decoder at £15, and, say, 5 coaches at ~£20, or 15-20 wagons costing ~£8 each. Roughly £1500 expended before the fiddleyard is full? Second, for a layout some 12' in length I'm using the rule-of-thumb to not let the train length exceed 1/3 of the layout (4'). So, a fiddle yard below the layout would potentially have a lot of track for the length of train, unless they were sat behind each other. Finally the number of spirals needed to raise the track from the fiddleyard to the scenic level could be 5 turns perhaps? Assuming a radius of 15" (possibly more generous radii would be needed) this works out at nearly 40' of track. What I'm getting at is that the time taken for a train to leave the fiddleyard to the scenic level could be excessive compared to the amount of time actually "on scene". Might this not take some of the enjoyment and spontaneity out of operating it? I found this scale speed table useful to see how long the train might be on scene and how long it might take to scale the helix. Best, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 It's been some time since I posted about progress on the layout. In truth the intervening time has been spent transforming the garage into a model room. It is now equipped with damp proofing, insulated walls and floor and a 4.8m x 0.61m run of kitchen cupboards, with an additional 0.6m x 0.6m corner unit forming an "L". Over the weekend I'm going to fix the chipboard to the top of the kitchen units, but couldn't resist placing some track on temporarily to see how it might look, space wise. The sketch below shows the L-shaped area available overlaying a map of the area I'd like to model. At the "Derby" end (Left) there is, I believe plenty of room to get a turn around loop, hopefully with one or two additional storage loops. I can extend the baseboard out a few inches to give sufficient width for the turn around and compress the scenic area to give sufficient length. At the Matlock end (Right) if I follow the prototype closely it is more difficult to cater for a turn around loop (?) as in reality the line itself describes a gentle curve with the line exiting towards the front of the baseboard at Cromford station. Yes, I could shave off 3 feet at the right hand end of the layout to accommodate the fiddle yard loops, but this would really start to squeeze the available scenic area. It would be a lot easier to accommodate the fiddle yard loops if they were at 90o , sitting neatly on the shorter section of the "L". To do this, however, I need to allow the track to move to the back of the baseboard. This is where I'd like to hear your thoughts about how closely one needs to follow a prototype (or allowed to deviate from it) whilst still being able to claim it as a specific place. Earlier on in this thread I've brazenly allowed the line to retain it's double track and some form of functioning quarry 10-15 years after it would have been singled and the quarry line closed...to offer operational interest. For some that will already have crossed the line. I am, however, planning on reproducing the station building, bridges, canal, river etc to retain the elements that haven't changed in many decades. For me attempting to get these bits right will be quite a challenge. So, over to you whilst I fix those bits of chipboard down and start to make baseboard frames. Thanks in advance for your input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friar Tuck Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Squeezing all that into 12 feet sounds to me like mission impossible. You need a tardis, not a garage Even in 2mm scale it would be a challenge. I don't want to put you off a really good idea, but why not concentrate on the bit that is most important/interesting to you. In the future you may find the space to expand things and include the other sections. If it were me, I would concentrate on the bottom of the incline and associated sidings for now. You would only need a few locos and stock, so you would get on with finishing the layout quicker. If you did the main line, you would need a huge amount of stock to give you the variety that existed on the real thing.....but that is my preference, not yours. Please ignore me if you wish - this is just my opinion and I have no wish to force my ideas upon you at all! alternatively, you could treat the incline bit as the core of a bigger layout, which is only ever taken out to exhibitions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 I'll certainly not ignore you FT and appreciate your thoughts! I think the available space may look like a dream come true for many who have nowhere near as much space available. Having said that the original plan in Railway Modeller seems, to me, quite ambitious with heavy compression on some features which may be "incompressible", e.g. station buildings. In reality the platforms would be about 2' in length if modelled to scale. To get a feel for what might be possible I've laid out some track and put outlines of the Cromford station buildings and station master's house on the available layout space. It's already starting to look as if this may be more "essence of Cromford" rather than a scale portrayal of the real thing. But then, I guess many (perhaps the majority) layouts are just that. . Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Of course the Wirksworth branch was used for testing new DMUs from Derby C&W and also publicity shots of a certain (Blue) Pullman train. A novelty crowd puller at exhibitions could be a breakaway wagon coming down the incline, jumping over the canal and landing near the Midland mainline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 A novelty crowd puller at exhibitions could be a breakaway wagon coming down the incline, jumping over the canal and landing near the Midland mainline. I always like looking at the remains of the wagon in the runaway pit at the bottom of the incline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted June 4, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2014 Hi Andy, There's some great footage of the Cromford and High Peak and Sheeps Pasture incline in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5MJg26p23A Well worth a look. Cheers, Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 It's been some time since I posted about progress on the layout. In truth the intervening time has been spent transforming the garage into a model room. It is now equipped with damp proofing, insulated walls and floor and a 4.8m x 0.61m run of kitchen cupboards, with an additional 0.6m x 0.6m corner unit forming an "L". Over the weekend I'm going to fix the chipboard to the top of the kitchen units, but couldn't resist placing some track on temporarily to see how it might look, space wise. model railway room 001.JPG The sketch below shows the L-shaped area available overlaying a map of the area I'd like to model. At the "Derby" end (Left) there is, I believe plenty of room to get a turn around loop, hopefully with one or two additional storage loops. I can extend the baseboard out a few inches to give sufficient width for the turn around and compress the scenic area to give sufficient length. Cromford overview sketch.JPG At the Matlock end (Right) if I follow the prototype closely it is more difficult to cater for a turn around loop (?) as in reality the line itself describes a gentle curve with the line exiting towards the front of the baseboard at Cromford station. Yes, I could shave off 3 feet at the right hand end of the layout to accommodate the fiddle yard loops, but this would really start to squeeze the available scenic area. It would be a lot easier to accommodate the fiddle yard loops if they were at 90o , sitting neatly on the shorter section of the "L". To do this, however, I need to allow the track to move to the back of the baseboard. Cromford alternative sketch.JPG This is where I'd like to hear your thoughts about how closely one needs to follow a prototype (or allowed to deviate from it) whilst still being able to claim it as a specific place. Earlier on in this thread I've brazenly allowed the line to retain it's double track and some form of functioning quarry 10-15 years after it would have been singled and the quarry line closed...to offer operational interest. For some that will already have crossed the line. I am, however, planning on reproducing the station building, bridges, canal, river etc to retain the elements that haven't changed in many decades. For me attempting to get these bits right will be quite a challenge. So, over to you whilst I fix those bits of chipboard down and start to make baseboard frames. Thanks in advance for your input. I would keep the relationship between the railway, roads river and canal, but just bend/straighten them all to suit the space you you have rather than re-aligning the railway in the landscape. Its not the actual shape that makes the character of the area, more the interplay of the elements. If you're not certain what I mean by bending, I'll try to draw it BTW I've camped on the hill above the tunnel at the left end of your layout, there a lovely field! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Tim, what you say makes complete sense. Very much the conclusion I'd come to. Best. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted July 4, 2014 Author Share Posted July 4, 2014 Well it's been a month since I last posted anything but progress has been made during the time. Some of you reading this will be very familiar with the Cromford (Derwent Valley Line) and some of you less so. Here's where my introduction to the line came from and the inspiration for my version of Cromford. A big "thank you" to David Wright for his inspiring "Plan of the Month" article in the Railway Modeller June 2011. I've settled on a traverser-style fiddle yard which will sit below the main scenic section of the layout. I considered turn around loops at each end with lay-by sidings but concluded that at best I'd squeeze one extra loop at each end. More of a passing point than a fiddle yard! The compromise is that access to the fiddle yard won't be as easy but I can at least get many more storage tracks in. And as the mainline is not operationally complex, relying instead on the variety of trains working to a timetable, I think this is the best option. Of course the track has to climb between the traverser and rise to the Derby and Manchester ends of the scenic section. To achieve this I've constructed a spiral out of a sheet of 6mm MDF using a tracksetta template as a guide and then a jigsaw to carve out the sections. I'll be making the "Manchester" end in due course. But for now I want to add some track to the existing spiral and see if my locos will perform ok on a curving incline. Fingers crossed. Now I have a better idea of the area available for scenic modelling I've started transferring David's plan on to a long length of lining paper. I'm not really into using CAD-type packages and find paper, pen, and some lengths of track to get a feel for how the layout will look. The first picture is looking "north" with the Derwent Valley line on the right and some ideas for how a cut down version of the High Peak line might have looked on the left. Very early stages on that. At the Cromford station end I've cut out templates of each of the buildings to get a feel for how they will fill the space. And finally I've been using a lot of online photographic resources for my research. I hope to walk the area next month. One particularly fascinating resource is a walkers equivalent of "streetview". If you click on the link I've provided then you can navigate around the area and this is not confined to roads. I've (hopefully) set it to start on the tow path near the pumping station. So, as they used to say at the end of cartoons "That's all folks". Should have another progress report in the near future. All the best. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonBradley Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I've just read in ER's that you have run trains., Where's the update with pics? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 There you go, Don. Just for you. A couple of shots of my Class 20 at either end of the traverser. I'm using some fairly old wagons for testing just in case they take a dive off the track! You'll notice the directional lights are on - no cheating here! Pity I can't figure out how to put a movie clip into the post. I'm wiring up more sections of the traverser each day - time permitting - and will work on the spiral (Derby end) next. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonBradley Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Thanks Andy. I will watch developments eagerly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 OK, time has marched on and I've been pre-occupied doing other, non railway modelling, things. However I have been adding more tracks to the traverser and, rather disappointingly, there seems to be too much play in the runners, or the miniscule gap between the traverser and adjacent woodwork is too large. This means that at present I'm struggling to get the tracks to line up properly. Rather than ripping it up and starting again I'm going to systematically try getting one track at a time correct then a second, third.... If this had been OO I could probably have "got away with it", but as a newbie to N gauge it is evident that precision is paramount. I want to get this bit right as it will be a fantastic bit of infrastructure for successor layouts just as much as it will be for Cromford. I really believe that the enjoyment or frustration one gets from a layout is in large part down to how reliably it works. To quote Captain Oates...."I may be some time!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Well, with the last update nearly 11 months ago I don't suppose it will come as a great surprise to anyone that this layout stalled. A number of factors that I suspect are familiar to most of us; job, family, loss of mojo, etc. came into play. I find it really difficult to set aside time for modelling when there are other calls on my time. Whilst I really like the idea of "trains in a landscape" - and if I get round to building a layout of this size it will almost certainly be in this vein - I also want to balance it with operating potential. So, the station would have to have more potential than simply for trains to stop and start again. Having said that, the Cromford location is, arguably, a modeller's dream with convenient scenic breaks at each end and to the fore and rear....! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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