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Frappingtons workbench - GWR 1361 Industrial Conversion & Hornby/Bachmann Ivatt 2mt Hybrid Bodge


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Not much progress recently as I've been distracted resurrecting my box file layout Filton Street Goods (link in signature etc.). However, I got No. 8 out again this evening and cracked on with making a start on the tender. So far, I've built the basic structure including bulkheads out of plasticard, as well as the top of the water tank - as ever it looks better in the flesh. Because the loco is being depicted as being transported, it ought to have an empty coal bunker and this is going to be the next (and possibly most challenging to execute) addition, along with the front of the tender (coal hatch, tool box etc.). I also need to add the slight curvature at the top of the tender body. These I'm aiming to do with microstrip, filed to shape once glued down. The filler cap is obviously temporarily held in place with bluetack at the moment to aid with dimension-checking.

 

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It's all a little rough and I may end up scrapping it all and starting again after the next stage, but in many ways that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing seeing as this is my first attempt at 'proper' scratch building using plastic sheets etc. We'll see...

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  • 2 months later...

I've gotten a little distracted recently... Again... No. 8 is still waiting for me to finish the tender, but in the mean time I have finally got round to building the freelance traction engine shunter based on a Keil Kraft kit I mentioned a while back. "Aion" is a real mis-match of parts: a re-motored Hornby 0-4-0 chassis with an N-20 motor; a Smokey Joe running plate and rear-cab wall (adds weight if nothing else!); the Keil Kraft boiler (hacked around a lot and extended with plastikard when I hacked it around too much!) and other associated m'gubbins from the kit; various etched and cast details; and a plastic tube which came as a protector for a paint brush and is now used as a funnel. I've included a picture of it pre-painting below to give an idea of what all the different bits are!

 

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The paintjob was sort of inspired by the preserved 'Blue Circle' and does look much better when not the subject of a cruel photographic close-up!

 

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I will get back to No.8 soon!

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1 hour ago, AlfaZagato said:

Any thought to a representation of the gearing to the wheels?  Maybe with one of those paper-thin watch gears you can buy bags of from Micro-Mark?

 

I was considering it, but the size of the Hornby 0-4-0 chassis wheelbase means that the cog would have to be absolutely huge, plus there's a couple of protrusions on the chassis which would get in the way. In my head it's chain driven off the cog in the housing on the right-hand footplate - there's sort of a historical precedent as Aveling did make some chain driven locos. It's something I'd absolutely look to do if I had a smaller chassis on which to base the model, as it would be much more feasible.

Edited by Frappington Jct
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Back to Hurricane. I've finished the superstructure of the tender, based on photos, guesswork and the CAD of a 1:48 3D print available on Shapeways (which, incidentally I'm considering buying in the future to make an operational 1:48 scale RH&DR layout). It's not 100% accurate as ever, but I think it looks OK. It's currently resting on the cut-up chassis from the original Flying Scotsman tender chassis to replicate the bogies. These will be glued down when I make a final decision as to whether I'm happy with it! That'll then be followed by the filler cap, faux-gangway, faux look out window etc. I'm unlikely to try and put too much detail into the tender footplate area as the point of this isn't to stress too much over details that will be a proper pain to put in and will be barely noticeable. I might put a tarp over the cab to cover this. 

 

There is a slight camber at the top of the tender, but due to the primer/light it's not really visible in the photos.

 

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I had to guess the bunker layout as I couldn't find any pictures - I think it looks at least plausible, and again the sides are at angles but the light/primer hides this.

 

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Edited by Frappington Jct
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I decided I didn't like mk1 tender, it was too wide and whilst I was pretty happy with it in all other senses I knew the width would irritate me. So, I rebuilt it slightly narrower and I'm much much happier - turns out not only was the width wrong but the dangers of using a mix of different period photos shown. I found a couple of photos from the 1950s which clearly show more space on the tender for the crew, no tool chests (or whatever they were) between the crew and the bunker, and the cowling didn't travel as far forward on the tender. These have all been incorporated onto the tender, along with water filler cap, mock corridor connection & look-out, buffers and vacuum pipe. The bogies still need a bit more adjustment to improve the ride height and repair some areas where I removed a tiny bit too much material, plus I need to work out what fittings to put on the tender footplate - I assume a handbrake would be a good start? Then it's onto smoke deflectors and paint and it's just about done

 

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I've had a productive evening! The bogie height has been reduced, a handbrake handle made & installed on the footplate, the loco buffers and vacuum cable have been fitted and everything primed (albeit a very thin coat on one side as the can started to run out.) The loco buffers are a little wonky as I had to modify a set of brass N-gauge auto-coach buffers to get the length right (they were the only ones available with the correct sized oval buffer heads), but from normal viewing distance it isn't really noticeable. I've also made a pair of smoke-deflectors for the loco out of thin plastikard - the photo below shows one attached to the loco temporarily, but they won't be permanently affixed until after painting as the insides are being painted red which won't be possible if they're installed. I'm rather pleased with the results so far and looking forward to painting!

 

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No.8 is nearly done! All physical additions are now complete (apologies for some of the poor picture quality below) and the whole loco has had it's initial paint job - just needs transfers now to complete. The new physical additions are as follows: front end steam chest (or 3rd cylinder box, I'm not sure what it is!), under-tender air tank (or at least again that's what I think it is!), right-side battery box, smoke deflectors permanently attached and nameplates (so small I could get away with just printing on standard paper and it looks pretty decent!).

 

Just need to get transfers on and then all that needs doing is to modify the Rectank it's going to sit on before the model can be declared complete. 

 

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24 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

Nice little model!

I'll be cheeky and ask if you're going to do the lining ;)

Your blue looks right:

Hurricane1960.jpg.eed33b3bd4474ed1294ce241d9e0086a.jpg

 

Thanks! I think the best thing to say is that I'm going to *attempt* the lining! :laugh_mini: I'm having problems getting the Fox lining transfers to stick at the moment so we'll have to see - I'm debating what way to go with the tender lining as I can't find a black and white composite waterslide transfer, but equally I don't know if I'd notice if it was just white

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5 hours ago, Frappington Jct said:

I'm debating what way to go with the tender lining as I can't find a black and white composite waterslide transfer, but equally I don't know if I'd notice if it was just white

 Looking at the photo a light cream might be preferable to white if you go for a single colour.

White/black/white lining was used by the LNER (on Apple Green) and the Caledonian Railway.

Edited by BernardTPM
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I managed to find a pot of Humbrol Decalfix in a draw and it's solved my adhesion issues. I've been quite busy this week so thus far I've only applied the black boiler bands. I've been grappling with the black and white lining and would appreciate a second opinion in terms of how it looks. I applied a single corner onto the cab and can't decide whether the lining is too thick or not - part of me isn't that keen but looking at BernardTPM's photos I don't think it's too far off? The perils of using items from multiple scales on one build!

 

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I've now completed the lining out of one side of 'Hurricane', and the LNER style lining was definitely the right idea - the black is more obvious in real life. I've based the lining off this photo of No. 8 in 1950 so haven't put anything on the tender/cab cut-out (or what ever you would call it), but then again for the sake of ease I've built it in the slightly later style so might decide to line it as such. We'll see. I do also need to think about what to do about the works plate, as if the lining has highlighted anything it's the large space on the cab side that could do with filling.

 

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It's been a while since I've updated here, but work has slowly continued to complete 'Hurricane' and her accompanying Rectank. All the lining was completed about a month or so ago - it's one of those jobs I find really rather tedious and thus I tend to procrastinate rather when it needs doing! Thoughts then turned to how to mount the loco onto the wagon, and how best to replicate the original picture: 

 

652677997_GreenGoddessonrectank.jpg.0dcb452e9bd3cf54577bdceaf1c0f945.jpg 

 

For a while I was considering ditching the buffer stops in place of sleepers chained onto the tracks, or ditching the track altogether and simply 'chaining' the loco onto the wagon. These ideas were rejected for a few reasons, although one of the primary ones was that the wagon's loading/chain eyes (or whatever they're called) are superglued in the unused position and I really didn't fancy dismantling the wagon just to move for tiny parts! More than that though, I knew I wouldn't be satisfied with either of these solutions so eventually decided to press ahead with as good a replication of the original solution as I could produce.

 

I had a length of Z-gauge track (correct for the model, if not quite to scale), which I cut down to length and removed approximately two thirds of the sleepers in line with the photo. The sleepers in the photo appear to be metal, so all had a couple of coats of Humbrol rust wash, as did the rails themselves, as I assume any old rails which were sound enough to carry a load and were sitting around in the yard at New Romney/Ravenglass would have been used regardless of whether they were a tad rusty. The track was then affixed to a set of sleepers taken off some ancient Hornby 00 gauge track, weathered accordingly, and in turn glued to the Rectank. The buffers were rather fiddly and had to be slightly shorter length wise than I would have liked as the longer tender that No. 8 carries compared to 'Green Goddess' in the original picture means that it's all a rather tight fit onto the wagon! They're rather simple in construction however - simply plasticard triangles with micro-strip detailing painted grey with a rust wash and a pair of Z gauge sleepers as the buffer beam. I did experiment with rivet detail but it was very difficult to get right and make look good so I gave up as realistically they would have been near invisible from any normal distance. The photos below show the wagon prior to the 2nd set of buffers and loco being installed. 

 

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The loco itself was a VERY tight fit, and needed some material taking off both the loco and tender footplates to maximise the amount of space to get the 2nd set of buffers onto the Rectank. However, after a couple of false starts and a small amount of profanities it all, finally, went together and I think I can now finally declare the project complete!

 

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(In case anyone's interested, the loco in the background is a Gresley C9 recently bought from The Model Railway Club's online shop, and which I suspect originates from a heavily modified pair of Hornby tender drive B17s. It needs a bit of work so will be reappearing here at some point in the future!)

 

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Close ups never do these things justice, but oh well! When I have time I'll pose the ensemble on Filton Street for as near a replication of the original photo as possible.

 

'Atlas' Update

 

But wait, there's more! Just a quick 'Atlas', the Dubs crane tank, update - the loco now has a motor and runs, albeit rather noisily in one direction. I've reused the original pick ups and resistors, attached to an N-20 motor with new worm gear affixed in place using my customarily messy style of motor mount! Motorising the chassis has also meant I can finally permanently fix the cylinders to the loco - them being glued together with a plasticard strip and then glued to the chassis. It nearly all worked first time, though a 0.5mm clearance issue with the slide bar necessitated an annoying amount of adjustment. I got there in the end though!

 

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The loco still needs a hook (on order), rear frame extensions and a good coat of dirt to cover some frosting from the varnish I used... Slowly getting there though!

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Extracted Filton Street from its shelf to try and replicate the original photo of Green Goddess with my model - I'm rather limited by the layout itself both in terms of the background and the possible angles, but the flavour is there!

 

1472267523_GreenGoddessonrectank.jpg.ef2a3d5f8064461b0073ed7c3749f0a4.jpg1366870149_20201228_173914bw.jpg.fefecbef0f9e537eeed5eb6a408fbbb1.jpg

 

Also, I hope you will indulge me a quick shot through the layout with 'Hurricane in the distance.

 

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An oddball of a project now. A little while ago, I bought an old Hornby 2mt off eBay, which had been upgraded with new separately fitted details, an extended tender etc. It also had new wheels and a replacement worm gear, though no motor. The plan was to simply fit a motor and complete the paintwork etc. and, hey presto, a decent 2mt for circa £30. 

 

The loco as it arrived (not the best photo sorry):

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However, once I started to try and reassemble the valve gear, I found that the new scale wheels really don't interact well with the old Hornby valve gear - I think the new wheels were slightly smaller than the original and hence the rods are too long. In looking for a solution, I came across a Bachmann split chassis 2mt sans tender on eBay, which had been wired for, I think, a DCC decoder in the tender. As such, I was able to pick it up for £38 - taking the current project total to about £56, which is still cheaper than a new Bachmann model, especially as I'll probably sell the original loco body to recoup some of the cost. 

 

The new loco as mentioned had been wired for DCC operation via a decoder in the tender (which it didn't have) so some re-wiring was required before it would run - it's a bit of a mess so I'll just leave that to your imagination... :jester: The next question became modifying the tender to match the loco, As can be seen in the photo below, the tender as received is significantly taller than the loco, with the tank sitting too high in relation to the loco footplate. 

 

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There's a limit to how much chopping I wanted to do, so rather than reduce the height of the tank so the footplate matched the loco, I instead have glue micro-strip along the base of the tank to improve the look. Not perfect but fine from normal viewing distance.

 

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As can also be seen in the above photo, to reduce the height of the tender cab I removed the roof and filed the bulkhead down slightly to improve its appearance. Again, once reassembled it's not perfect but fine from a distance.

 

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Whilst the floor is still the wrong height in relation to the loco footplate, it's not really noticeable so I'm going to leave it as is. I've also removed the moulded coal load and installed a false floor into the bunker to add real coal to. The sides of the bunker are a bit rough but shouldn't be too noticeable once complete.

 

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Just waiting now for some more filler to arrive so I can disguise all the little nicks I've made in the tender cab sides...

Edited by Frappington Jct
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  • Frappington Jct changed the title to Frappingtons workbench - Hornby/Bachmann Ivatt 2mt Hybrid Bodge
  • 1 month later...
Posted (edited)

As seems to happen rather often, I've gotten rather side-tracked from what I was doing... The 2MT has acquired some paint on the tender and had all its decals removed, and is now waiting for transfers (and a tender drawbar assembly). I really hate doing lining however, so I'm now in the 'putting it off for a while stage.'

 

In the mean time, I've taken advantage of the very low prices of Kernow's GWR 1361s to undertake a project I've had in my mind for a while. For ages, I always assumed that the 1361s were locos from a private builder which the GWR had absorbed at the grouping or something and liked the idea of using them to represent an industrial loco. However, the 1361s are actually designed by Churchward (?) for the GWR and have no industrial pedigree, so there was nothing *accurate* that could be done with them... That being said, I recently came across some pictures of Avonside's B3 saddle tanks, which very much look like a baby version of the 1361s, with square cabs and less gubbins on the tank tops. As such, I thought I could modify a 1361 to represent fictional 'B3x' of sorts, and if it goes horribly wrong, at least I've got a good quality chassis for future projects.

 

The loco as it arrived:

 20210315_194714.jpg.868bf0479464793e77a451aabf220d1c.jpg

 

The cab is the biggest thing which needs changing - I could have built one but then that relies on my rather dodgy scratch-building skills. As a compromise, I sought a donor and came across a fairly cheap Mainline J72, which had a nice shaped cab and a bunker with the right curve on the back.

 

The cab as it came off the J72 (with help from my new razor saw - my new favourite tool):

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This of course needed further mods to suit the model I wanted to build - the doors needed to come off, a new front piece had to be built with smaller windows, the bunker needed shortening and the whole thing needed raising by about 1.5mm. The whole thing nearly fell apart a couple of times (the plastic is REALLY brittle) but I got there eventually.

 

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At this point, I forgot to take a picture of the cab mocked up on the loco before I dismantled the bodywork... Sorry! Ideally I'd have removed the whole body from the chassis to undertake the following work, but the 1361 isn't engineered to do that easily. Instead, the top half of the water tank comes off in one (rather heavy) piece to access the motor, and whilst this will make painting the underside of the tank a little tricky, it serves well enough for my purpose of removing the safety valve cover, handrails and a couple of other little bits to better represent the B3s.

 

The tank as it came off:

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And after I'd hacked away at it abit:

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Other things I've learnt today? Well, the transfers Kernow used seem to be totally impervious to T-Cut, so I'm just going to have to hope they'll disappear under a couple of coats of primer... Next job is to decide on a paint scheme - I'm liking the idea of apple green with red lining

Edited by Frappington Jct
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  • Frappington Jct changed the title to Frappingtons workbench - GWR 1361 Industrial Conversion & Hornby/Bachmann Ivatt 2mt Hybrid Bodge
7 hours ago, Frappington Jct said:

 

 

In the mean time, I've taken advantage of the very low prices of Kernow's GWR 1361s to undertake a project I've had in my mind for a while. For ages, I always assumed that the 1361s were locos from a private builder which the GWR had absorbed at the grouping or something and liked the idea of using them to represent an industrial loco. However, the 1361s are actually designed by Churchward (?) for the GWR and have no industrial pedigree, so there was nothing *accurate* that could be done with them...

 

The cab is the biggest thing which needs changing - I could have built one but then that relies on my rather dodgy scratch-building skills. As a compromise, I sought a donor and came across a fairly cheap Mainline J72, which had a nice shaped cab and a bunker with the right curve on the back.

The origins of the 1361 design went back to this Cornwall Minerals Railway design. So not something that sprang from Churchward's imagination.

 

image.png.4975d85b31672e9d5574a9e38686f750.png

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  • 1 month later...

Apologies for taking so long to reply - I saw the replies, didn't have time to respond and then totally forgot.

 

On 28/03/2021 at 07:28, Nick Holliday said:

The origins of the 1361 design went back to this Cornwall Minerals Railway design. So not something that sprang from Churchward's imagination.

 

image.png.4975d85b31672e9d5574a9e38686f750.png

 

My apologies - I'm not a GWR expert so read 'Churchward' and just assumed. That does make a lot more sense, I did wander why the GWR would have produced a loco in that style. Many thanks!

 

 

On 28/03/2021 at 09:49, Corbs said:

Very interesting. You might find this article on adapting the 1361 to resemble a Chapman and Furneaux loco useful:

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/techniques/how-to-adapt-heljans-1361-0-6-0pt/

 

That method for adapting the cab was very similar to how I did my original Avonside-esque 'bash'! 

 

That's a really interesting article - I really like the idea but I'm not sure I have the confidence in my abilities to be that radical on a fairly expensive rtr model! I might experiment with the method of bulking the tanks out on a cheaper model for future use though. 

 

The model is now edging close to completion - much has happened since I last updated! The cab front was replaced with new, smaller windows (remarkably symmetrical for my efforts!), leaving a gap for the original locating tab. The gap was designed to be a tight fit so that the friction holds the cab in place rather than gluing it down or fitting screws. I fitted a blank piece of styrene over the locating tab to form the basis of the backplate as I didn't have an appropriate size one in my spares box. At the moment the backplate is being left blank, but I might have a go at detailing in the future. The indent at the bottom is to accommodate one of the screw mountings which held the original cab on. The cab also gained some microstrip ribbing to breakup the plain sides.

 

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The model has now also gained a coat of green paint (the tin said it was apple green, though I would suggest it's much closer to GWR but hey ho) and a full set of red lining, which was horrible to apply. I hate lining, even using the ever excellent Fox Transfers sets. It now awaits coal in the bunker, a crew and its name and works plates which are on order from Narrow Planet.

 

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I'm loving the shape of the J72 cab as modified and am really pleased how this is all turning out. In my opinion it captures the look of the Avonside B3s whilst being slightly bigger - a nice compromise to ensure I have a model which runs properly for once!

 

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