P way engineers trains 1975(ish) to 1980

[cheesysmith]

I am wanting to know what was used for p way trains in the above period, ie- before the turbots were introduced. For fresh ballast and such, various ballast hoppers depending on region would have been used, but what would have been used for spent ballast and the like? Also, would a p way train being used for reballasting include a low flat (like the Dapol wagon kit) for a jcb digger?

 

I want to model 2 trains, one with the fresh ballast and one for the spent stuff, maybe stabled for p way work to occur at the weekend.

[Fat Controller]

Spent ballast would have been conveyed in a mixture of purpose-built engineers' wagons (Grampus, Ling, Tunny) and ex-revenue open wagons (Medfits, Highs, Shock Highs) - for a while, in 1979/80, I worked opposite the siding serving Alsager tip, which took the spent ballast for the Crewe/ Stoke area. The main rule about the spoil trains seemed to be that no two identical wagons should be coupled together..

The Grampus is available from Parkside; ex-SR Tunny from Chivers' Finelines, who also did a GWR-designed one that doesn't seem to be in their list ( http://slimrails.co.uk/index00gauge.html )

For the ex-revenue wagons there are:-

Shock-High (Bachmann), 5-plank open (Hornby), various 5-plank highs from Parkside and Cambrian, Medfit (steel-bodied) from Parkside.

Towards the latter part of the period, 16t minerals and 27t tipplers moved across.

JCBs weren't used for this sort of work; it would have been either tracked 360º excavators (Poclain being one make common at the time) often with tracked bulldozers/shovels to dig out the base/level the new ballast.

[Rivercider]

As Brian says, the spoil trains could be very mixed.

I have a few shots of spoil trains from the early 1980s on my Flickr site

Click on the link below, and use the search term 'spoil', or 'engineers',

 

edit

Here is one from 1982, but would have been typical of the 1975-1980 period (except for the SPA next to the loco)

37232 heads towards A.D. Junction Yard Newport with spoil for Maesglas Tip, 19/5/82

 

cheers

Edited February 15, 2014 by Rivercider

[eastwestdivide]

A few spoil trains in the background of these shots from Knighton S Junction (Leicester), around 1981.

Vacuum-fitted shock opens, more 13T opens in the background:

 

Other 13T opens, some looking slightly out of square:

 

Unfitted iron ore tipplers:

 

And a ballast at Leicester, showing a nice mix of hoppers, catfish, dogfish and sealion/seacow. I think the dogfish between the two bogie hoppers has the extended sides:

 

PS I may have some notes on wagon types for spoil over that period. Seem to recall that some types didn't last long on that traffic - maybe the wooden ones weren't best suited to being bashed about while being loaded with spent ballast. Will take a look later if you're interested.

Edited February 15, 2014 by eastwestdivide

[cheesysmith]

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. As to if I'm interested in any more photos or info, yes, keep it coming. As to the dogfish in that photo, it looks like one of the slag ballast conversions.

 

As for spoil trains in the period I'm interested in, a mixed use of ex revenue low sided wagons and some ex iron ore wagons, with the odd 16 ton original body rot box would be suitable? Would such a train be mixed, or would it be a train of either lows and a train of boxes or would the two be mixed in the same train?

 

I will say thank to everyone who provides any information and this thread keeps giving me ideas with some of the photos that have been added so far. After all, any layout could have a siding on it, with a ballast trains and/or a spoil trian parked up awaiting use on a weekend re-ballasting job.

[Fat Controller]

The ore tipplers tended to work as block trains, at least as far as I remember them- as they had twice the capacity of the others, the engineers might have been wary of mixing them in case a digger driver put a heavier load in the smaller wagons. 

[Rivercider]

I started on the Western Region in 1977. As far as I recall most of the spoil trains on the larger worksites were grampus, mostly unfitted with a vacuum braked head.

But on a smaller site, perhaps in Devon or  Cornwall, you would find a very mixed train as Brian has decribed.

When the 16t minerals were used for spoil I think they tended to stay in blocks, but being of limited capacity they were often overloaded, hence the holes cut in the sides.

 

cheers 

[eastwestdivide]

As promised, some spoil and ballast train observations, just squeezing in to the OP's time frame:

 

Southern (Kent), July 1980:

1) a mixture of vacuum-fitted 13T opens (ZGV) with Grampus ZBV. Included 13T opens: DS 12430, DE 282002, DB 490437, DB 495467.

2) around 40-50 Grampus ZBV (with one 33 on the front)

3) 27 Grampus ZBV 

 

Leicester Oct 1980:

1) an excellent mixed rake doing relaying work: BR brake van, 9 x ZEV catfish, 1x ZLV Herring, 1 x ZMV Mackerel, 1 x ZFV Dogfish, 2 x LMS brake van, 1 x ZBO Grampus, 1 x BPV boplate, 1 x BDO bogie bolster, 1 x SPV plate, 1 x STV tube, 1 match wagon of some kind - I think its crane or other bit of plant was elsewhere.

 

2) loaded new ballast: 5x ZEV Catfish, 2 x ZFV Dogfish, 1x ZFV with slag ballast extensions, 4 x ZFO Trout (BR-built), 1 x CAO BR brake van

 

3) mixed new ballast and spoil: BR brake van, 7 x ZEV catfish, 6 x ZAO medium opens (of which 1x DB series and 5x DM series), 4x ZBO Grampus, 1x ZBV Grampus, 2x ZCO Sole (DM-series), 2x ZGO 13T opens (of which 1 DE series and one DB series), 1x ZGV (DE series), 1x ZHO (ex-13T mineral), and many more...

 

4) mixed rake of mostly ZGV ex-shoc high opens with ZBO Grampus and ZCO in DM series

 

Leicester June 1981:

1) Mixed rake of ZHO (16T minerals) with a couple of Catfish

2) New ballast: 5x ZLV Herring, plus more than 4 YGH Sealion

3) New ballast: 2x ZLV Herring, 6x ZFV Dogfish, 1x YGH Sealion, 3x ZMV Mackerel, some others, and a ZUV Shark plough brake.

4) New ballast: 10x ZEV Catfish, 1x ZLV Herring, 1x ZFV Dogfish with slag ballast extensions

5) newly-recorded: some ZKO ex-MSO 27T tipplers

6) spoil: mixture of ZAV, ZBV and ZAO medium opens, including both steel and wood versions, and a DM-series ZAO

 

Hope that helps

Edited February 17, 2014 by eastwestdivide

[Fat Controller]

I started on the Western Region in 1977. As far as I recall most of the spoil trains on the larger worksites were grampus, mostly unfitted with a vacuum braked head.

But on a smaller site, perhaps in Devon or  Cornwall, you would find a very mixed train as Brian has decribed.

When the 16t minerals were used for spoil I think they tended to stay in blocks, but being of limited capacity they were often overloaded, hence the holes cut in the sides.

 

cheers 

That's how I remember seeing WR spoil trains at both Patchway and Maesglas/ADJ in the 1970s/ early 1980s; either Grampus or the variations of (G)WR drop-sided engineers' wagons (Tunny and Lings). Ex-Revenue wagons were used for other jobs, but not spoil. The LMR used a real mixture of ex-revenue stock, but few purpose-built wagons, in the spoil workings I saw.

I remember seeing how Patchway unloaded the trains in the 1970s. Both sides of the wagons would be dropped; a 'skimmer' type tracked excavator would position its bucket so as to push/drag the load off. Every so often , the unloading road would be moved, as the ground to either side was built up. A certain amount of spoil would be moved, using another excavator and some old lorries, to fill other bits of the site.

[eastwestdivide]

Taking a look through my photos, I was surprised to see a DW-series ZBO and a ZCO (Ling?) still in use in mid-1983, here at Derby, in a spoil train with a bunch of DB-series ZBO Grampus:

DW 30672

 

DW 80758

 

I suppose being steel, they would stand up to the rigours of spoil loading and unloading better than later wooden sided wagons.

 

...but here are some wooden DM-series ZAV in use for spoil at the end of 83/start of 84, I think at Ely:

DM 480040 and DM 478694

[Fat Controller]

The smaller wagon is a Ling; someone (Kirk?) used to do a model in 4mm back in the 1970s. Well into the 1970s, there were examples with the Dean-Churchward brake in service.

The larger wagon is a Tunny; Chivers Finelines did a very nice kit, but it's not in their current list.

The other steel-bodied type you'd see were the SR-designed 'Tunny', with its distinctive 'bulge' along the upper part of the door; again, Chivers Finelines have done these.

[eastwestdivide]

Ah yes, the SR Tunny - mostly vac-braked and stuck to the Southern by 1980 I think? And often mixed in with Grampuses too.

[ozzyo]

Around here the North L.M. ISTR that it was 16 ton mineral wagons with holes cut in the sides about 12" -18" from the top and run in block trains, up to the tip near to Blackpool. One thing to remember is that old ballast is heaver than new with all of the dross that it has accumulated in its use. The 16 toners that were used were for coal work and new ballast is also heaver than coal per cubic yard.  

[Fat Controller]

Ah yes, the SR Tunny - mostly vac-braked and stuck to the Southern by 1980 I think? And often mixed in with Grampuses too.

There was an unfitted version (possibly more numerous) as well; these went to other regions when the SR went 'all-fitted'. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Around here the North L.M. ISTR that it was 16 ton mineral wagons with holes cut in the sides ...

Remember this on parts of the East Coast route too, a very distinctive feature of the time to stop the 16 tonners being overloaded. The holes tended to letter box shape, and my recollection is that they could be positioned anywhere from halfway up to three-quarters of the way up the side. Also distinctive, the very 'bruised' appearance of the lower body side from the battering they were taking, and often large dings in the top rails. Wonder how long an average 16 tonner taken into engineer service endured this battering?

[The Stationmaster]

There was an unfitted version (possibly more numerous) as well; these went to other regions when the SR went 'all-fitted'. 

There were lots of transfers north of unfitted wagons as the Southern and the Western went over to fully fitted operation during the 1980s.

[Linners]

A great question from the OP, but one thing that I find confusing is livery. In the 1975 - 1985 period, was permanent way stock coloured green or black? Furthermore, when was the "Engineer's grey and yellow stripe" livery applied? Was this in the eighties or later still?

 

Linners

[Fat Controller]

A great question from the OP, but one thing that I find confusing is livery. In the 1975 - 1985 period, was permanent way stock coloured green or black? Furthermore, when was the "Engineer's grey and yellow stripe" livery applied? Was this in the eighties or later still?

 

Linners

You'd see wagons in black, Gulf Red, and green liveries, often in the same train; engineering stock didn't often encounter a paint-brush. The so-called 'Dutch' livery appeared in the mid/late 1980s; I remember seeing Seacows ex-works at Shildon around then.

[hmrspaul]

Remember this on parts of the East Coast route too, a very distinctive feature of the time to stop the 16 tonners being overloaded. The holes tended to letter box shape, and my recollection is that they could be positioned anywhere from halfway up to three-quarters of the way up the side. Also distinctive, the very 'bruised' appearance of the lower body side from the battering they were taking, and often large dings in the top rails. Wonder how long an average 16 tonner taken into engineer service endured this battering?

This is later than the OP wanted to know about.

 

Other answers have been excellent, anything that was open could be used - there are hundreds on my site - just search for Hitchin for example. It was only in the 1980s that overloading caused enough accidents that more care began to be taken and the holes were cut in the side of the minerals. Ordinary minerals were used - there are a number of LMS ones and early unrebuilt BR at Hitchin on my site. As already mentioned shock opens in particular seem to have been popular - being smaller capacity they were less of a risk from excessive loading. Similarly, the entire medium open fleet appears to have been claimed by the engineers by the mid to late 1960s - photos of them in revenue use are remarkably rare.

 

As to livery, black until c1960, gulf red 60-63, olive green afterwards. But little got repainted. But most of the stock used for spoil remained in original traffic livery, very worn with a crude D added to the number (please hand paint these - no decals),

 

Dutch livery has been discussed on RMWeb before. This, painted in February 1981 is one of the earliest http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/seacow/e23bab886

 

Paul

Edited February 19, 2014 by hmrspaul

[rob D2]

Hand paint a ' D' on a wagon ? My bionic eyesight isn't up to that...quite...

[hmrspaul]

Hand paint a ' D' on a wagon ? My bionic eyesight isn't up to that...quite...

Neither were the guys who did the real ones, they werer almost invariably awful, outside the box, not on the black etc. Those unfitted mediums earlier in the posting are unusually smart.

 

Paul

Edited February 20, 2014 by hmrspaul

[Vanders]

As to livery, black until c1960, gulf red 60-63, olive green afterwards. But little got repainted. But most of the stock used for spoil remained in original traffic livery, very worn with a crude D added to the number (please hand paint these - no decals),

 

 

The rule of thumb seems to be that engineers stock was painted once, when brand new. After that it just stuck around with whatever colour it happened to be painted in until it fell apart, or got rebuilt and then subsequently repainted as a "new" bit of stock.

 

That generally means that as long as your period is after the time that the livery was introduced, but before the stock was scraped, you can run it. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions, but the above works in most cases. 

[Fat Controller]

Neither were the guys who did the real ones, they werer almost invariably awful, outside the box, not on the black etc. Those unfitted mediums earlier in the posting are unusually smart.

 

Paul

Not only that, Paul, but they seem to have got the vacuum-pipes still coupled; almost unheard of on spoil trains.

[Rivercider]

A great question from the OP, but one thing that I find confusing is livery. In the 1975 - 1985 period, was permanent way stock coloured green or black? Furthermore, when was the "Engineer's grey and yellow stripe" livery applied? Was this in the eighties or later still?

 

Linners

Here is a photo of Eastern Valley Sidings at Newport, many of the wagons are loaded with spoil for nearby Maesglas Tip

This picture supports my memory that in the late 1970s most purpose built engineers stock was olive green with perhaps a few black survivors,

though dulled down by plenty of rust in some cases.

Amongst the ex revenue earning stock, medfits and highfits, I recall were mostly brown/bauxite.

I don't remember seeing any gulf red stock.

 

Eastern Valley Sidings with pilot 08586, 15/7/80

 

cheers

[The Bigbee Line]

Spent ballast would have been conveyed in a mixture of purpose-built engineers' wagons (Grampus, Ling, Tunny) and ex-revenue open wagons (Medfits, Highs, Shock Highs) - for a while, in 1979/80, I worked opposite the siding serving Alsager tip, which took the spent ballast for the Crewe/ Stoke area. The main rule about the spoil trains seemed to be that no two identical wagons should be coupled together..

The Grampus is available from Parkside; ex-SR Tunny from Chivers' Finelines, who also did a GWR-designed one that doesn't seem to be in their list ( http://slimrails.co.uk/index00gauge.html )

For the ex-revenue wagons there are:-

Shock-High (Bachmann), 5-plank open (Hornby), various 5-plank highs from Parkside and Cambrian, Medfit (steel-bodied) from Parkside.

Towards the latter part of the period, 16t minerals and 27t tipplers moved across.

JCBs weren't used for this sort of work; it would have been either tracked 360º excavators (Poclain being one make common at the time) often with tracked bulldozers/shovels to dig out the base/level the new ballast.

Brian,  You know when you make a statement, some sm***t a**e will find a contradiction.  Like you I thought 360's were the order of the day.  Then I found this http://www.flickr.com/photos/35476094@N04/8469315860/in/set-72157633030916720 showing 2 JCB's loading dirty ballast in 1985.  Thanks to Doctor Majuba on Flickr.