Corbs' Cobbling - Is it electric?

[Corbs]

19 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Corbs,

 

Have you isolated the pick-ups to the wheels so that you don't get spurious control voltages one way or another ?

 

Gibbo.

 

Yes I just snipped the wires. One of the reasons I chose this loco was that it's always had terrible problems with pick-ups. I'm not sure what Hornby Princesses are like normally?

When I did the Tenshodo Spud I forgot to do this and for a while couldn't figure out why it was moving on its own!

[Corbs]

A bit hard to steer this beast. She's built like a Princess but handles like a King...

 

Anyway, the Nailsea MRG show is just a few weeks away, and I need a stand to show all my models (at least I presume that's what I need to do and it's not just going to be me lying atop a table).

 

Today my stepdad and I built these. The lazy susan goes in the middle and is motorised. I need to build a box for the TV to raise it up so you can see it better. On the TV I am planning to show a bit of info and photos about each loco, how they were made etc, on a rolling loop. Need to slap some primer on this bad boy and then a shedload of filler to hide the gaps, classic bodging!

 

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Corbs

[Gibbo675]

13 hours ago, Corbs said:

Today my stepdad and I built these. The lazy susan goes in the middle and is motorised.

 

 

 

Is that where you put your Chinese take-away for when you get peckish ?

 

Gibbo.

[Corbs]

Yes it's for my (choo) choo mein.

[Mikkel]

Hi Corbs, just been catching up. Always something interesting and unusual to see here  

 

14 hours ago, Corbs said:

Today my stepdad and I built these.

 

Apart from the rotating cake stand, I'm trying to work out what the shelves are for. Exhibiting the stock? Bird's eye view? Hardcore RC driving practice?

[Corbs]

Or just for gerbils to have a little sit down and watch the humans! Rodent sized popcorn will be provided.

 

Here it is with some stock plonked on it

[Nile]

I see you've fitted a rotating launch pad in the middle, allowing you to aim your radio controlled Cathedral.

[Corbs]

'Places of Worship are GO!' doesn't have the same ring to it, sadly!

 

Whilst I literally watch paint dry on the bleachers....

 

... I've been doing a lot of thinking on Suddery Cathedral.

This was one of the first ambitious 'bashes' I did on a loco, and it does have a soft spot in my heart, but I'm not happy with it.

Whilst I do like the idea of a Hawksworth 'Cathedral', it doesn't really fit with anything else on the NWR.

I do wish to stick with the backstory of the NWR having bought the frames, wheels and boiler of the ill-fated 46202 Princess Anne, but the overtly Western Region styling does not fit with this.

I'm toying with the idea of re-branding the current model as a BR(W) type in express passenger blue, re-assigning it to the 'might have been' fleet along with the Peppercorn P2, and building a totally new Suddery Cathedral. In an infinite multiverse, this must just be another version of the same concept!

 

So, what I'm thinking of is something more ambitious. Say, for example, that my CME was a devotee of Chapelon and spent a fair amount of time with the French master pre-war. In 1953 they find themselves tasked with rebuilding the remains of 46202 into the flagship of the NWR. Everything needs a purpose, here's my first draft.

 

Requirements

 

-Must be capable of hauling a 10 coach train from Tidmouth to London Marylebone non-stop

NWR is permitted to run to London over BR but only via Manchester, Sheffield and then GCR main line to Marylebone (carryover of pre-war agreement with LMS and LNER). From Tidmouth I have estimated this as 6 hours and 25 minutes! A sleeper service seems like the likely solution.

-The ex-MS&LR between Manchester and Sheffield is a bit up-and-down. Sure-footedness is key through here. 

-The link with the capital is vital to maintain the island's status in the modern world. The NWR must provide as fast a link as it can to compete with ships docking in Liverpool and Holyhead.

 

Design Spec

 

-The correct balance of power, speed and efficiency is key

-Power to get over the ex-MS&LR route

-Speed to be competitive with other boat trains and to keep timings down

-Efficiency due to the distances involved

 

Proposed Solutions

 

-Superheated

-Compound to make best use of steam

-4-cylinder with enlarged steam chests on low pressure cylinders

-Steam pipe diameter increased

-Double Kylchap exhaust (Kylpor seems unlikely to be available in 1953)

-Firebox modified to add thermic syphons

-Largest tender possible (limiting factor is turntable facility at Marylebone. Tidmouth has no limit as there is a wye facility by using the docks branch)

 

Possible additions

 

-Caprotti valve gear (used on DoG in 1954 and also appeared on several Standard 5s as well as the last few Black 5s)

-Corridor tender for crew changes (?)

-Feedwater heater (yes because Chapelon would approve, no because might be difficult in the UK loading gauge)

 

Constraints

 

-Retain wide firebox and general boiler design (redesigning these components beyond adding the thermic syphons would largely negate the point of buying 46202 in the first place)

-As above with wheels and frames

 

Thoughts/suggestions welcomed!

Edited March 21, 2019 by Corbs

[AlfaZagato]

Consider following the same concept Chapelon had when he did the PO 231s into 240P's.

 

Modelling-wise, adding a driving axle to a steel frame is a pain.    Still, dressing up the boiler with a whole mess of visible pipework, as seemed common with Chapelon rebuilds, would put you in the right neighborhood for visual effect.  I don't know if you would want to fudge a corridor tender out of a streamlined Princess Coronation tender, or use a LNER item.   Squashing and rolling a lump with some pipework into it would do well to represent the feedwater heaters on the 240P's.

[Corbs]

Well that and the work he did on the 3500 class pacifics are very much the inspiration behind this

Good point about the feedwater heater. I guess the challenge here is to make a graceful version of Chapelon's ideas which may require hiding away some of the pipework to give it that UK-look.

 

I had thought about a 4-8-0 conversion but discounted it for 2 reasons:

-It would negate the point of using the boiler from 46202 as would need to be converted to narrow firebox

-I feel that visually the 240p worked nicely because it had smaller driving wheels relative to overall size, with the 6ft 6in wheels and UK loading gauge I don't think it would work so well. Possibly with 6ft wheels and a tight wheelbase but then you run into same problems as above

 

Trying to find out the size of the turntable at Marylebone which will give me the tender size.

This site shows a photo of 4472 using it in 1986

http://www.mdrs.org.uk/steamspecials.htm

 

Princess Royal is 74ft 4 1⁄4 in (22.663 m) long

A3 is 70 ft 5 in

..eek! So it's a tight fit and I can't go longer than standard length in that case. Suppose if pressed I could double-tender it and have a short coal/water tender and a longer water tender that can be uncoupled while the loco is turned?

[BernardTPM]

There's a picure of a B12 with feed water heater on this page.

[Corbs]

Very chapelon-esque Bernard!

 

I may have a solution to my Marylebone problem. In 1924, the LNER built a reversing loop at The Exhibition Station (Wembley) that connected to the Chiltern Main Line. This closed in 1969.

You can still see the outline of the old route today.

 

If I can run the loco tender first through this loop then it can arrive back at Marylebone facing the right way, so in theory I have no upper length limit.

 

Link to thread on RMWeb about the station (which I found after I had discovered it on the map - good old RMWeb!)

 

This photo from that thread shows a V2 using the loop to do exactly what I have said - reverse direction and end up the correct way around to work a special out of Marylebone.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Corbs

[Gibbo675]

16 hours ago, Corbs said:

'Places of Worship are GO!' doesn't have the same ring to it, sadly!

 

Whilst I literally watch paint dry on the bleachers....

 

... I've been doing a lot of thinking on Suddery Cathedral.

This was one of the first ambitious 'bashes' I did on a loco, and it does have a soft spot in my heart, but I'm not happy with it.

Whilst I do like the idea of a Hawksworth 'Cathedral', it doesn't really fit with anything else on the NWR.

I do wish to stick with the backstory of the NWR having bought the frames, wheels and boiler of the ill-fated 46202 Princess Anne, but the overtly Western Region styling does not fit with this.

I'm toying with the idea of re-branding the current model as a BR(W) type in express passenger blue, re-assigning it to the 'might have been' fleet along with the Peppercorn P2, and building a totally new Suddery Cathedral. In an infinite multiverse, this must just be another version of the same concept!

 

So, what I'm thinking of is something more ambitious. Say, for example, that my CME was a devotee of Chapelon and spent a fair amount of time with the French master pre-war. In 1953 they find themselves tasked with rebuilding the remains of 46202 into the flagship of the NWR. Everything needs a purpose, here's my first draft.

 

Requirements

 

-Must be capable of hauling a 10 coach train from Tidmouth to London Marylebone non-stop

NWR is permitted to run to London over BR but only via Manchester, Sheffield and then GCR main line to Marylebone (carryover of pre-war agreement with LMS and LNER). From Tidmouth I have estimated this as 6 hours and 25 minutes! A sleeper service seems like the likely solution.

-The ex-MS&LR between Manchester and Sheffield is a bit up-and-down. Sure-footedness is key through here. 

-The link with the capital is vital to maintain the island's status in the modern world. The NWR must provide as fast a link as it can to compete with ships docking in Liverpool and Holyhead.

 

Design Spec

 

-The correct balance of power, speed and efficiency is key

-Power to get over the ex-MS&LR route

-Speed to be competitive with other boat trains and to keep timings down

-Efficiency due to the distances involved

 

Proposed Solutions

 

-Superheated

-Compound to make best use of steam

-4-cylinder with enlarged steam chests on low pressure cylinders

-Steam pipe diameter increased

-Double Kylchap exhaust (Kylpor seems unlikely to be available in 1953)

-Firebox modified to add thermic syphons

-Largest tender possible (limiting factor is turntable facility at Marylebone. Tidmouth has no limit as there is a wye facility by using the docks branch)

 

Possible additions

 

-Caprotti valve gear (used on DoG in 1954 and also appeared on several Standard 5s as well as the last few Black 5s)

-Corridor tender for crew changes (?)

-Feedwater heater (yes because Chapelon would approve, no because might be difficult in the UK loading gauge)

 

Constraints

 

-Retain wide firebox and general boiler design (redesigning these components beyond adding the thermic syphons would largely negate the point of buying 46202 in the first place)

-As above with wheels and frames

 

Thoughts/suggestions welcomed!

Hi Corbs,

 

I hate to tell you but 6202's boiler ended up on 6203, the smoke box had weld beads shewing where the double chimney of Turbomotive had been patched in for a single chimney.

 

Thermic-syphons would cause hellish maintenance trouble unless a steel inner firebox is fitted.

 

Why not use the frames from one Hughes' Dreadnought 4-6-0's modified with the fitting of a BR Std style trailing truck, with a P2 boiler altered to steel firebox but retaining all the feed water clutter, retaining the original cab. One of the Dreadnoughts was converted to compound expansion and with the Hughes connection you could have Lentz or Reidinger gear just like some of the Crabs were fitted with. You could get a bit of the Southern in on the act with a large Lord Nelson tender.

 

Have fun,

 

Gibbo.

[Corbs]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Corbs,

I hate to tell you but 6202's boiler ended up on 6203, the smoke box had weld beads shewing where the double chimney of Turbomotive had been patched in for a single chimney.

Thermic-syphons would cause hellish maintenance trouble unless a steel inner firebox is fitted.

Why not use the frames from one Hughes' Dreadnought 4-6-0's modified with the fitting of a BR Std style trailing truck, with a P2 boiler altered to steel firebox but retaining all the feed water clutter, retaining the original cab. One of the Dreadnoughts was converted to compound expansion and with the Hughes connection you could have Lentz or Reidinger gear just like some of the Crabs were fitted with. You could get a bit of the Southern in on the act with a large Lord Nelson tender.

Have fun,

Gibbo.

 

Hi Gibbo, thank you. I was not aware that copper fireboxes did not like thermic syphons so that's an important point. I read today that many of the LMS locos were cut up due to the desirable value of their copper fireboxes.

The Super-Dreadnought would be very cool, though it would better suit a timeframe of 20ish years earlier when the LMS were turning their Dreadnought fleet into baked bean cans?

 

As far as I can tell the main reasons for Thompson or Chapelon-style drastic rebuilding over new builds were:

1- Rebuilding of locomotives could be set against the revenue account whereas new build was a capital charge

2- Recovery and re-use of components to save cost

-- e.g. the A2/2 locos used the driving wheels and boilers from the P2s despite requiring new frames, the 240P used the original pacific's frames with extensions and re-used the boiler barrels with modified fireboxes (?) along with 3 driving axles from the 4500 class

 

I don't know if purchasing second-hand locos is different or to which account this can be charged.

 

The other option I could do, which might make more sense, is to take my in-house 7P design (below - based on the GWR Kings but with outside walschaerts), of which the NWR has 3, and rebuild one using the frames, inside cylinders and front bogie, but a new boiler incorporating all my desired features - steel firebox, ACFI heater, etc., as well as large LP outside cylinders and all the other gubbins mentioned above. Bogie tender is desirable as you say.

This could fit the bill of making an economical long distance 8P more than the rebuild of 46202 proposed above (presumably meaning I should keep the current 805 as it is  )

 

[dave_long]

That voltage booster look quite large, have you tried the smaller pololu boosters? 

[Corbs]

It's massive, but it does fit in the tender, which was an incentive for me to use it in this application so I can use the smaller ones in the tank locos as seen here (otherwise I'd never end up using the big one and it'd end up in the drawer for ever):

 

 

[Corbs]

Been giving more thought to this Tidmouth-London loco and it struck me that I could set the date of the Tidmouth-London services to begin in the mid-1930s and resume after the war. I could rebuild one/some of the three 4-cylinder 'Westlin' 7P 4-6-0s and then in 1953 carry out a more modern rebuild of the 4-6-2.

 

Working within the constraints of the time (this fictional loco having a build date of 1931) and to similar things happening with other CMEs is part of the fun.

On the King chassis, there are four 16.25 in × 28 cylinders. The middle cylinders are as close to the centre line as possible. If the loco was rebuilt as a compound,  I could fit in two 20 in × 28 in cylinders on the inside (123% the size of the high pressure cylinders - could it go much larger? Chapelon's 231 had LP cylinders 152% the size of the HP ones) and show this by moving the cylinder end covers further apart.

To deal with the clearance issues of larger inside cylinders on the front bogie, the cylinder positions can be moved aft and use unequal length connecting rods.

Rather than using rocker arm-derived motion, I could equip the rebuilt 7P with Lentz Valve Gear. Caprotti valve gear was around as well, but Chapelon made use of Lentz.

Looking at the end profile and using the firebox shoulders as a limit, I think I can incorporate the ACFI tanks on the boiler in an elegant-ish way. The pump is plain ugly. Hmm.

 

Anyway, double Kylchap needed (obviously). Mocked up here with the Lentz gear to see what it looks like compared to its sister loco. Presumably I will need to build a bogie tender for the Walschaerts-equipped locos to enable them to carry enough fuel.

 

[Corbs]

Putting new projects to one side, last night I cracked and decided that the GBL chassis fitted to 'Sigrid' just was not up to scratch and looked like the single blob of plastic and metal it is. So I ripped it all apart and set about fitting a Bachmann chassis and running plate. Caused a fair bit of damage to the model in the process which will need fixing up, but also took the opportunity to salvage a few details like safety valves and whistle from the Bachmann donor. 

I need to bond the body to the running plate so that it can all be securely screwed together.

[Corbs]

The display for the exhibition is nearly ready, final test assembly today. 

[Corbs]

Well this loco is totally cobbled even by my standards. If I were to attempt another I would just start with the Bachmann loco, the aggro of trying to make the inferior GBL body work with the Bachmann chassis is not worth the hassle. Also, the severe amount of surgery required has resulted in very rough handling and damage to the model, which has had to be patched up, but cyanoacrylate is still very brittle. Bachmann plastic from a certain era just seems to reject all glue.

Time pressure of getting it ready for the exhibition mean I've not been as thorough with it as I would have liked, but it's not too bad from a distance.

The main thing is, it works.

 

[Corbs]

700th post in this thread, woohoo!

Here's a cracking shot by AySea of how the stand looked at the Nailsea MRC show at the weekend. I was really pleased with how it came out, if I do another show it would be a good idea to have more of a demonstration track going around, the RC 009 was a last minute addition and I was happy we went with it as it added a layer of interest, even if it was shuttling back and forth.

 

 

[AlfaZagato]

Forgive me if I'm asking a question already answered, but where did you source the OO9 open coaches?

[Corbs]

53 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

Forgive me if I'm asking a question already answered, but where did you source the OO9 open coaches?

Ici, mon amis

https://shop.narrowplanet.co.uk/collections/rolling-stock-kits

[AlfaZagato]

34 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Ici, mon amis

https://shop.narrowplanet.co.uk/collections/rolling-stock-kits

And plastic, no less!   Thank you.    I should look sometimes, before I let my fingers free.

[LNWR18901910]

6 hours ago, Corbs said:

700th post in this thread, woohoo!

Here's a cracking shot by AySea of how the stand looked at the Nailsea MRC show at the weekend. I was really pleased with how it came out, if I do another show it would be a good idea to have more of a demonstration track going around, the RC 009 was a last minute addition and I was happy we went with it as it added a layer of interest, even if it was shuttling back and forth.

 

 

Very well done on your loc 'n' stock! When will James and Percy come along?