ben pez Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Evening all As im cracking on with the baseboards for my loft layout,im starting to think about the wiring for it. Its going to be a double track running all the way around the perimeter of the loft. Im going to solder dropper wires from each individual piece of track. But whats the best practice for the bus wire underneath? Im planning on using household twin & earth for this and using chocolate block connectors for joining the dropper wires to this. Theres probably different methods to this,but anyone got an idiots guide!?! First time ive tried to wire up a layout thats all. Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertW Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Depending on the size of the layout you could try 16/0.2mm equipment wire (3A) 32/0.2mm equipment wire (6A) 50/0.25mm High Current wire (30A) it all depends on the current capacity of the layout, how long the cable runs are and what the permissable voltage drop is. the larger the current rating the lower the voltage drop along the cable and the better the layout will run. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Good evening, Some first thoughts. I used mains cable for my 'Bus'. I used the heavier cable used for power circuits rather than the thinner variety for lighting. I stripped all the cable out of its grey PVC sheath. I used one core for the common return from the track and the other core for the common return from the point motors. The Bus takes a direct route beneath the layout. I view joints as a potential problem and my 'Bus' has only one joint - in the middle where the layout was extended - an after thought. All connections to the Bus from controllers and droppers are soldered. Typically the dropper is around 100mm in length and is soldered to a slightly heavier cable which is then run to the Bus. Underneath is not particularly tidy but it works. I should perhaps add that the Bus is around 60ft long and takes its feed from two DS and two P controllers. The Bus for the point motors is split into two and takes its feed from two controllers at opposite ends of the layout. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Many thanks for the replies lads very helpfull photo ray, cheers for that. I have some 16/0.2mm equipment wire I was thinking about using for the droppers and like you ray stripping down household twin & earth for the bus wire,as I already have a large reel of the stuff anyway my layout runs around the loft measuring 14'x13' With just a double track running all the way around the room. I already have a double Hornby h&m controller,the newish type. Hard to explain in writing but am I right in thinking that if I have a double track I would have two complete seperate bus wires underneath the baseboard? Two lives & two negatives running along underneath the boards So four seperate wires altogether? Sorry if this sounds dumb!! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Hello Ben I have a set of pictures on Flickr with a copy of some old notes from Rev Edward Beal. I use 'cab control' where the layout is divided into separate electrical sections. With this arrangement you will only need one power bus for the whole layout, single track, double track, triple track, etc. You do however need section wires to each individual section as detailed by Rev Beal (and others). You could make your 'up line' one section and your 'down line' another section. However it might be better if you were to divide the whole layout into a number of different sections - perhaps six or nine feet of track at a time, each wired up with its own section switch. I favour single pole double throw centre off switches for each section which can take power from two separate sources - I seem to recall that H&M controllers were 'double wound' and as such are suitable for cab control - something that others might know more about. Certainly Gaugemaster controlers can be wired up for cab control. I hope it has not suddenly become too complicated! Regards Ray PS There is more on controlers and DC on my Blog. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Many thanks for the help ray,much appreciated just wondering.... Youve soldered youre dropper wires to the bus wire,did you simply cut away the outer protective sheath? Thus making the whole bus wire one complete unbroken wire. as you can probably tell im a novice when it comes to wiring this layout im currently building! But three months in and the baseboards are finally coming together cheers ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Yes Ben, I cut the insulation and wrapped the 'tinned' connecting wire around the Bus. Sounds neater than it actually is when working underneath the boards. You need a good soldering iron as the thick copper Bus wire acts as a very good heat sink. If you are planning a circular layout I would be thinking about a circular Bus - the two ends connected together with a 'chocolate block' connector. I guess there are lots of other options out there but I have used the same basic approach on my last two layouts which seemed to stand the test of time. I shall be interested to hear how you get on. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I really don't see the ned for a bus with DC, the power is around 15va 16 volts max whereas DCC can be 48va 4 amps and 16 volts max, and that damages fish plates if you get a short. I have some very thin 2 amp ish feed wires 20 feet long in places for sections most of which must be 16 feet long with only one feed. Probably the most crucial thing is to have separate tie bar or point motor operated switches for points so the little point blade tags do not control the sections current only the actual point blade. The other thing is if you can run a conduit across the middle of the loft rather than all the way round the other side. But in my 50 years experience of DC 90% of voltage drop is point blade problems and the rest fishplates I have even seen them glow red on my Triang Floor layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 ...If you are planning a circular layout I would be thinking about a circular Bus - the two ends connected together with a 'chocolate block' connector... Caveat: only applicable to use of insulated crossing points. If using live crossings, don't make a closed loop or ring. There needs to be a break co-located in both rails and feeds (busses). So the wiring becomes spurs from the supply point. It is helpful to make the spurs reasonably symmetrical, the more so as the distance increases. As in the post above, shortening the spurs by running across a lengthy oval rather than following the rails around only, is a good move when 'going large'. First saw this on an extensive US lavout arranged as a 'dogbone'. All DC, and the high consumption motors noticeably slowed despite pretty heavy wiring, at maximum distance from the supply points. (This was an HO set up with 400' of continuous run, wonderful things American basements.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I really don't see the ned for a bus with DC, the power is around 15va 16 volts max whereas DCC can be 48va 4 amps and 16 volts Whilst each section feed will generally be only an amp or so on a DC layout, If the layout is wired as common return, then the return wire needs to be able to handle the combined return current from all sections, which could be comparable to DCC on a large layout. Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Not sure I agree .If using live crossings, don't make a closed loop or ring. There needs to be a break co-located in both rails and feeds (busses).. I was talking about a bus / common return for DC. This should maintain the same potential right around the layout. Joining the ends will only improve matters - in exactly the same way as the ring main in your house? Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks for all the help & advice Ray i,ll let you know how i get on Although im still not 100% confident/certain with it all!! Was thinking it would be a live & negative bus for each oval of track,but its started to confuse me already!! Building baseboards i find much easier! Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hello Ben I was thinking that I might confuse you. If you have any specific questions just ask. I have just taken the Google Man along Belasis Road, I found the Synthonia Club but not the Drawing Offices where I worked as a student. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks for that ray No doubt i,ll be sending a p.m your way when im stuck with it. I take it you worked for ici then? Not sure where the drawing offices were,unless they were next to the synthonia club? Or the big ici offices that were across the road from the club? That was demolished late last year,supposed to be building a supermarket on it now. The chemical industry in billingham is now a shadow of its former self. Suppose like a lot of industry in this country But thats a different matter altogether! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hi Ben Yes PM by all means. ICI - yes and no. Only as student during the summer vacations. Before I bought my first car (£55.00) I used to cycle from Linthorpe and worked in the process shift labs somewhere in the middle of the site. It was a long time ago and we have done a lot of things and been a lot of places since then! Good Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Been reading this post again,im still not 100% clear on it all!! Sorry for being dumb!! As im getting nearer to finishing off the baseboards next job is to lay track and wire it up I have a Hornby hm 2000 twin track controller I will have a double track with two electrofrog points joining the two tracks. Just not sure how i would connect the controller ive got,to the bus wire underneath the baseboard. Could someone kindly post up an idiots guide wiring diagram to my as yet laid trackwork please? Just been reading through "newcomers guide to model railways" book by brian lambert and im still non the wiser! Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hello Ben Are these any help? Simple wiring - note insulating rail joints 'bus' drawn in RED More complicated - using Single Pole Double Throw Centre Off Switches so that you can swap controllers or run a train from the outer to the inner If you want to divide the inner or the outer into an extra section you will need to use more SPDT Centre Off switches and more insulating rail joiners Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Many thanks for that ray Really appreciate your time doing that Whats the yellow wire running out from the controller though? Am i right in thinking that this layout can done with a single live bus wire and a single negative bus wire running under the baseboards? Even though ive got two separate tracks,obvouisly joined with insulated joints on the pointwork. Thanks for your help and trying to help a 35 year old numbscull! I know if i could actually see someone elses layout that is just like my idea in dc with a twin track contoller,it would probably become very clear!! Thanks again ray Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hello Ben I have to admit that I am not familiar with the HM2000 unit. I guessed it would be a twin track unit and as such would have four output wires, two for one controller and two for the other controller. Have I guessed wrongly? (My Gaugemaster DS controllers have six output wires, two for each controller and two AC wires for solenoids.) If I have guessed correctly the blue and red wire comes from one controller whilst the yellow and red wire come from the other controller. In DC I can only visualise one 'BUS' - call it the return wire. The 'other wire' - lets say the live wire has to be taken to the track separately. Maybe someone else can post some pictures. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hello again Have you done a Google search? I found on YouTube which might help. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hi ray Youre right about the h&m wiring I was thinking with dc that i could have one positive bus wire & common return. Realise thats not possible with two controllers/two tracks. Im starting to see why people use dcc! Thanks for your advice ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Morning Ben - Good Old fashioned DC control has been around a long time and is straightforward. Think of the motor in the engine as a light bulb with one wire connected to the left hand rail and he other wire connected to the right hand rail. The controller lights up or dims the light bulb and all you have to do is make sure that one wire from the controller goes to the left had rail and the other wire goes to the right hand rail. The hobby becomes more interesting when you divide the track layout with insulating rail joiners. This way you can control more trains. DCC control is much like 'radio control'. Instead of sending the radio signals through the air you send the singals along the rails. Also instead of having batteries in the engine, the power is also supplied from the rails. You will still need to divide the track up into sections. Also if you use electrofrog points you may need to install additional switches to overcome problems with shorting that can occur where the backs of metal wheels bridge the gap between the point blades. It far from clear to me which is better, DC or DCC. I would say that DCC encourages manufacturers to 'up sell' products such as sound systems. DCC is certainly a way of spending money and it is not a route that I plan to go down any time soon. Good luck Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Cheers ray I totally understand that i need to feed each section of track with power,i.e using droppers from the rails,then to a power bus wire underneath the boards. Obvouisly im not going to rely on just the metal rail joiners between each section of track,which is like a childs train set! My drawing is not as good as yours,apologies! Each circuit of track has its own 'bus' track feed of positive & negative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben pez Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 My baseboards are flying along though! I find woodwork a lot easier than wiring! Loft is 14' x 12' Thanks for the help again ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I love the woodwork - including the bannister. You should only need one negative 'BUS' for both tracks. In the old days it was called a 'Common Return'. You join both 'negatives' from the controller and connect the droppers from both negative track rails to the one negative 'BUS'. What you do for the positive BUS depends very much on how complicated you make the wiring and switching. I use PECO Streamline Code 100 and over thirty years I have never used droppers on every length of track. My layout is divided into sections using insulating joiners, two to three, or even occasionally as many as four yard lengths at a time, fed from a single dropper for each rail. One dropper goes to the 'negative BUS' (common return) - the other dropper goes back to the Controller via a section switch - in my case a SPDT Centre Off switch which enables me to switch the power for each section to either controller - useful for running two trains and moving trains between inner and outer circuits. So not two Buses! Must go and tidy up underneath my layout! Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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