AndyG Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Hi, can anyone tell me what the track layout was please, or link me to a diagram if available? I imagine it was simply a couple of sidings with a run-round, but I stand to be corrected. Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePipersSon Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 According to the London Railway Atlas (by Joe Brown), it was just 3 sidings with a head shunt. The book Red Panniers has some photographs of the Watford tip workings, but none show the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Also consider as a possibility, might it have been a varying layout over time, as the waste handling required? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Narnia Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 This would make a lovely layout idea. Maybe HarSigs diagrams may have the siding layout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CloggyDog Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2014 The various Met signalling plans on the Harsig site show only the connection to the main, nothing more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyG Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 This would make a lovely layout idea. Maybe HarSigs diagrams may have the siding layout? Indeed, and I'm planning a small end-to-end plank incorporating the tip as a shunting puzzle. I already have a red pannier, a couple of LT brake vans, LT 3-plank wagons and some steel minerals, but I'm on the look out for something approximating the bogie wagons which were used for transporting spoil to Croxley. Any suggestions for these would be most welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyG Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 According to the London Railway Atlas (by Joe Brown), it was just 3 sidings with a head shunt. The book Red Panniers has some photographs of the Watford tip workings, but none show the layout. Sounds like a perfect candidate for an LT-based Inglenook. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerE Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 A few years ago I saw a couple of large scale OS maps from different periods that showed the tip layout. They were from different periods and the tip sidings layouts were slightly different in each. I used the local library to get the photocopies of the maps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold unravelled Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 I have a few photos taken in 1969 (?) when I was at college and went out to see th LT panniers. I ended up wandering into the tip area on one occasion. Happy to post the rest here if they'd be of use working out the trackplan. Thanks Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 There is a photo in Britain from Above http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/ of The Croxley Paper Mills, in 1932 (Image reference EPW039595) this has the gravel pit which became the Croxley tip in the background and the track layout seems to have included several sidings and a widely spaced run round in line with Dave's photo. I'd assume that LT simply used the existing layout and eventually scrapped the sidings surplus to their requirements. The note appended to the photo says Croxley Gravel Tip. One of several gravel workings in the local area that supplied gravel for the use in the construction of the British Empire Exhibition and Empire Stadium buildings in Wembley. This particular site had a direct railway connection to the Metropolitan Railway. The excavated site was later used as a landfill area for waste and spoil from the Metropolitan Railway works at Neasden, when it was known as Croxley (or Watford) Tip Sidings. This use declined during the 1970s and was abandoned by London Transport. The note is signed from someone calling himself The Laird who might perhaps be someone we know here. You need to register with Britain from Above to zoom in on the photo to see the sidings but it's fairly easy to do that. As with many of the aerial photos in the collection the focus was on the factory or whatever who were Aerofilms' client. The very useful images of the railway that often appear in them are incidental and unfortunately the other photos of the paper mill from that flight are taken from angles that don't include the gravel sidings. The railway companies don't unfortunately appear to have been great users of Aerofilms' services but they are nevertheless a mine of useful data. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi, can anyone tell me what the track layout was please, or link me to a diagram if available? I imagine it was simply a couple of sidings with a run-round, but I stand to be corrected. Thank you Hi Andy I have amassed a lot of information about the Croxley Green area railways - Croxley Green, Croxley Mills and Croxley Tip branches - I am not sure if In have a track plan on Croxley Tip however I think it was 3 sidings and there must of been a run round in stream days which might have been removed later when tip trains were then top'n'tailed by LT Battery Locos XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyG Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 I have a few photos taken in 1969 (?) when I was at college and went out to see th LT panniers. I ended up wandering into the tip area on one occasion. Happy to post the rest here if they'd be of use working out the trackplan. 09-9-8-2008_016.JPG Thanks Dave Thanks Dave, that would be very useful indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyG Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi Andy I have amassed a lot of information about the Croxley Green area railways - Croxley Green, Croxley Mills and Croxley Tip branches - I am not sure if In have a track plan on Croxley Tip however I think it was 3 sidings and there must of been a run round in stream days which might have been removed later when tip trains were then top'n'tailed by LT Battery Locos XF Hi XF, I wonder if you know what was the 'spoil' referred to. There seems to have been a lot of it if a daily train was operated. Was it simply the rubbish removed from trains and stations, plus whatever junk was not required at the depot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi XF, I wonder if you know what was the 'spoil' referred to. There seems to have been a lot of it if a daily train was operated. Was it simply the rubbish removed from trains and stations, plus whatever junk was not required at the depot? If my memory serves me correctly it was the spoil resulting from the demolition of the LT power station at Neasden, it taking them the best part of five years to complete the demolition. Prior to the power station's closure there was ash to be disposed of, and I suspect that spent ballast from relaying operations on the Met may well have ended up at Croxley too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 If my memory serves me correctly it was the spoil resulting from the demolition of the LT power station at Neasden, it taking them the best part of five years to complete the demolition. Prior to the power station's closure there was ash to be disposed of, and I suspect that spent ballast from relaying operations on the Met may well have ended up at Croxley too. These trains were not that long typically 2 wagons so so ash from steam locos and old ballast rather than the Neasden Power Station I would think. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold unravelled Posted February 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2014 Here are some of the more useful pics, I think they are pretty much in order. As well as ones which should help with the track plan, I've included some which show the various cranes and materials around. Also some of the stock and contents. It looks as if loaded wagons were delivered, and an emptied set taken away. And a couple taken on another visit. Hope they are useful Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerE Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 My dad used to drive F class locos, and often referred to journeys to the tip as the ash train. That might be a clue to what was in the wagons. I never took too much notice of LT trains at that time, because we lived quite close to Southall WR shed, and that had, to my mind at the time, much more interesting locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyG Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Here are some of the more useful pics, I think they are pretty much in order. As well as ones which should help with the track plan, I've included some which show the various cranes and materials around. Also some of the stock and contents. It looks as if loaded wagons were delivered, and an emptied set taken away. 08-9-8-2008_015.JPG 11-9-8-2008_018.JPG 15-9-8-2008_022.JPG 16-9-8-2008_023.JPG 17-9-8-2008_024.JPG 18-9-8-2008_025.JPG 21-9-8-2008_028.JPG 23-9-8-2008_030.JPG And a couple taken on another visit. 26-9-8-2008_006.JPG 28-9-8-2008_008.JPG Hope they are useful Dave Great pictures and fantastically useful Dave, thanks very much! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 These trains were not that long typically 2 wagons so so ash from steam locos and old ballast rather than the Neasden Power Station I would think. XF It is said that it took at least five years to demolish Neasden Power Station and it wasn't that big, so two wagons a day would easily clear the debris and leave room for more as well, although on the one occasion that I happened to see it I seem to remember at least five wagons with a brake at each end. I don't doubt that ash from the Neasden steam locos went too, but there weren't that many of them and they weren't all at Neasden anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It is heartening to see another West of Watford inspired layout at an embryonic stage. I have had in the back of my mind for a while know organising a Model railway show based on layouts near Watford and I am a "friend"of the Watford Musuem which would be a logical place to hold such an event although space is very limited. Would anyone else be interested in supporting such an event in the future? Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
L49 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I'm sure that the references made to shunting at Croxley tip in 'The Red panniers' refers to the sidings being fairly regularly shifted around the site. Presumably as one area was filled, the track would be moved to allow another area to fill up. In the book it references the two cranes which appear in the photos above as being used for this job, which might be right, as I doubt they would be needed for emptying ash or spoil from removable sided flat wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Narnia Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 The wagons in the photo appear to be what are now known as GP wagons. Unlike the 1986 procor built ones the old type have diamond frame bogies. I believe Radley models have redone their kit but I'm not sure they have the correct bogies now. Ratio do spare bogies at a reasonable price. Of course you could build your own like me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
L49 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I'm not sure when the General Purpose prefix was introduced, and the book which would have told me (Workhorses of the London Underground) has disappeared somewhere since we moved house (typical). I always thought that it was a general term dating back quite a long way, but going through the panniers book, it seems like all the low deck wagons with the removable panels were prefixed in the Flat series during steam days and the GP was a later introduction. I'm not entirely sure why LT decided to differentiate between the earlier design Flat and the General Purpose wagons, and having worked on some of them in preservation, I would be hard pressed to tell the difference. I have some drawings of more recent vehicles which show up differences in later batches, and further muddy the waters with the introduction of purpose built rail wagons, and that's before the special rebuilds! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted March 2, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2014 'A history of the Metropolitan Railway Vol 1' by Bill Simpson (ISBN 1 899246 07 X) has a partial map of the tip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry.ecmr Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 It is heartening to see another West of Watford inspired layout at an embryonic stage. I have had in the back of my mind for a while know organising a Model railway show based on layouts near Watford and I am a "friend"of the Watford Musuem which would be a logical place to hold such an event although space is very limited. Would anyone else be interested in supporting such an event in the future? Nigel Hi Nigel I would be happy to support it if you think 'Earl's Court' is close enough. (Although, as you know, I have ex Euston-Watford stock). I lived in the Watford area from the age of 9 until I got married, so I have an interest in the area. On a related but slightly off topic subject I taking my good lady away for Easter......to York! So we will visit the show. I am also going to contact NRM Archive and ask if they have any information on the carriage sheds/depot at Mitre Bridge. If they do I shall research/copy it. I have decided that Mitre Bridge will be my next project.....but not for a year or two or three yet. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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